584 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

 

Then you clearly lack an understanding of the Templar hierarchy. Again, the Templars are subordinate to the Chantry. Consider how the President of the United States of America is the Commander-in-Chief while also being a civilian. The same principle. Even if Cullen couldn't force Meredith to change her ways, he could go to someone who could and defuse the entire situation before it began.

 

It's true, I applauded how Grand Cleric Elthina used her authority in handling the Kirkwall Templar situation, by being right on top of Meredith's excessive abuses of power and taking steps to appoint a new Knight-Commander...

 

Oh, hang on, that didn't happen did it?

 

Never mind, I guess you'll probably spin that into how that's probably Cullen's fault... somehow?

[Revan Reborn]

It's true, I applauded how Grand Cleric Elthina used her authority in handling the Kirkwall Templar situation, by being right on top of Meredith's excessive abuses of power and taking steps to appoint a new Knight-Commander...

 

Oh, hang on, that didn't happen did it?

 

Never mind, I guess you'll probably spin that into how that's probably Cullen's fault... somehow?

There is nothing to spin. My point is Cullen failed to make an effort. Whether Elthina would have done anything isn't relevant as he never even tried to reason with her. As I have stated a dozen times previously, he remained a bystander. The chaos grew out of the Templar Order. He was the highest ranking officer to recognize it and attempt to quell it. He did not. It's obvious we can place blame on a number of individuals. That is not what this question is about. We are focusing on where Cullen failed in his duties and what makes him a questionable military advisor given his history.

[Sifr]

There is nothing to spin. My point is Cullen failed to make an effort. Whether Elthina would have done anything isn't relevant as he never even tried to reason with her. As I have stated a dozen times previously, he remained a bystander. The chaos grew out of the Templar Order. He was the highest ranking officer to recognize it and attempt to quell it. He did not. It's obvious we can place blame on a number of individuals. That is not what this question is about. We are focusing on where Cullen failed in his duties and what makes him a questionable military advisor given his history.

 

Right, because Cullen is the sole reason that Meredith remained in power?

 

What about all those years that Meredith was in power and had already gotten something of a reputation for being a harsh leader, before Cullen even showed up? Suppose Cullen had remained in Ferelden at the Kinloch Hold, would his replacement have done anything different than Cullen in that position? I honestly doubt they'd have done anything differently, when dealing with a boss like Meredith.

 

We know that the last time the Templars were nearly expelled from Kirkwall, the Knight-Commander was killed and Meredith responded by rallying the Templars, marching on the Keep and kicking out the freaking Viscount. Then they placed Dumar on the throne, a man who clearly knew that it's best not to screw with Meredith unless you've got a lot of people on your side.

 

As many people have repeatedly pointed out, Cullen has been involved in many skirmishes over the course of the two games and he's actually come out ahead every single time? How does that make him a bad Templar or military leader exactly?

[Vandicus]

There is nothing to spin. My point is Cullen failed to make an effort. Whether Elthina would have done anything isn't relevant as he never even tried to reason with her. As I have stated a dozen times previously, he remained a bystander. The chaos grew out of the Templar Order. He was the highest ranking officer to recognize it and attempt to quell it. He did not. It's obvious we can place blame on a number of individuals. That is not what this question is about. We are focusing on where Cullen failed in his duties and what makes him a questionable military advisor given his history.

But that assumes there were actual abuses of power to be concerned about leading up to the invoking of the Rite.

 

Why do I say that? Because up until the Rite of Annulment, Meredith was right. Orsino was a blood mage. There were blood mages in the Circle at Kirkwall. If anything, the lack of support for the Meredith's attempt to search the tower was the problem.

 

Meredith cracked down on mages because she suspected there were blood mages in the Circle. Turns out there were blood mages in the Circle. Why do we consider her actions before she literally was driven insane by the lyrium Idol to be an abuse of power?

 

Up until the point Meredith decided the Circle had so many blood mages that it needed to be wiped out, she was 100% on the ball about blood mage shenanigans.

 

 

Cullen had every reason to be hesitant to disobey Meredith's orders, because Meredith was consistently right about what was going on in Kirkwall. There was no way for Cullen to reasonably ascertain whether the Circle was mostly blood mages when previously he had believed there were no blood mages, and as of the Annulment he suddenly found there to be dozens of blood mages in the Circle. The rational thing for him to conclude would be that Meredith is better at ascertaining the existence of blood mages.

 

Up until attacking the Champion, who is obviously not a blood mage or friend of blood mages(unless you went blood mage spec and helped Anders in which case Meredith is actually right AGAIN and Cullen is being too lenient towards mages AGAIN).

 

 

Meredith. A little crazy, but much better at detecting blood mages than your average templar.

[Revan Reborn]

Right, because Cullen is the sole reason that Meredith remained in power?

 

What about all those years that Meredith was in power and had already gotten something of a reputation for being a harsh leader, before Cullen even showed up? Suppose Cullen had remained in Ferelden at the Kinloch Hold, would his replacement have done anything different than Cullen in that position? I honestly doubt they'd have done anything differently, when dealing with a boss like Meredith.

 

We know that the last time the Templars were nearly expelled from Kirkwall, the Knight-Commander was killed and Meredith responded by rallying the Templars, marching on the Keep and kicking out the freaking Viscount. Then they placed Dumar on the throne, a man who clearly knew that it's best not to screw with Meredith unless you've got a lot of people on your side.

 

As many people have repeatedly pointed out, Cullen has been involved in many skirmishes over the course of the two games and he's actually come out ahead every single time? How does that make him a bad Templar or military leader exactly?

This isn't difficult to understand. Cullen was the closest individual to Meredith. He knew her better than anyone else. He was privy to information and insight about her that no one else had.

 

"What ifs" aren't relevant to this discussion. We are talking about Cullen.

 

All you are suggesting to me is because Meredith was hard to work with, better leave her to her own devices and run things? That sounds like a terrible idea, and as DA2 showed, it was, especially once she received the red lyrium from Varric's brother.

 

How has he come out ahead? Time and time again he has failed allowing many innocents to die. He does not have a resume of resounding success. He is plagued with poor decisions and questionable competence. The reason he would be a bad leader should be obvious. Poor leadership skills. Questionable moral compass. Slow response time. Nothing of his record is screaming success to me.

 

But that assumes there were actual abuses of power to be concerned about leading up to the invoking of the Rite.

 

Why do I say that? Because up until the Rite of Annulment, Meredith was right. Orsino was a blood mage. There were blood mages in the Circle at Kirkwall. If anything, the lack of support for the Meredith's attempt to search the tower was the problem.

 

Meredith cracked down on mages because she suspected there were blood mages in the Circle. Turns out there were blood mages in the Circle. Why do we consider her actions before she literally was driven insane by the lyrium Idol to be an abuse of power?

 

Up until the point Meredith decided the Circle had so many blood mages that it needed to be wiped out, she was 100% on the ball about blood mage shenanigans.

 

 

Cullen had every reason to be hesitant to disobey Meredith's orders, because Meredith was consistently right about what was going on in Kirkwall. There was no way for Cullen to reasonably ascertain whether the Circle was mostly blood mages when previously he had believed there were no blood mages, and as of the Annulment he suddenly found there to be dozens of blood mages in the Circle. The rational thing for him to conclude would be that Meredith is better at ascertaining the existence of blood mages.

 

Up until attacking the Champion, who is obviously not a blood mage or friend of blood mages(unless you went blood mage spec and helped Anders in which case Meredith is actually right AGAIN and Cullen is being too lenient towards mages AGAIN).

 

 

Meredith. A little crazy, but much better at detecting blood mages than your average templar.

Actually no... Orsino never became a blood mage until the very end, where he gave into temptation because he no longer could tolerate the discrimination and subservience mages had to endure under Meredith's rule. Honestly, you would turn to blood magic too if a nutcase like Meredith all the sudden decided you all no longer had the right to live. While there were certainly some blood mages in the Circle, it was far from everybody, and Meredith treated all mages as if they were abominations. Her methods were harsh, unforgiving, and unethical.

 

There's a better method to explain this. Meredith saw the worst in everybody. Whether she was right or wrong is irrelevant. Because of her frame of mind, how she treated others, and how she was unwilling to compromise, she forced the more desperate mages into a corner with no way out. The only way you could ever say she was right all along was because she created the entire situation based on how she ruled. Had she been more forgiving, tolerant, and understandable, there would have been vastly fewer mages, if any, who turned to blood magic.

 

Your entire analysis is off. Meredith created the situation because of her own unreasonableness. You cannot be "right" if you are the one who creates the chaos to begin with. That is irrational.

[xSammy13x]

@xSammy13x; What happened to Cullen in Ferelden was awful, yes, but rather than view Uldred's uprising as a pushback against the oppressiveness of the templars and circle, which is what it originally was, he completely abandons all sympathy he ever had for mages and within a year is a newbie templar turned militant knight-captain to perhaps the most extreme Knight Commander in Thedas, and we all know what happened under Meredith's leadership. I just don't think his past is justification for what he did and did not do.

 

I'm not saying he's innocent completely, but I understand the mindset there...it's why I'm so surprised so many people are suggesting they just won't accept his help at all, or he doesn't deserve to have the job.

 

Aveline supported and married a Templar. Carver becomes a templar. Alistair also supported the Templars. Are we supposed to hate on them every time they make an anti-mage decision?

 

I realize theirs may not have been as big as Cullen's, as he was a Templar, but like...the man realized he was wrong, and joined the Inquisition to fix it. Cassandra picked him personally. Unless we all want to say Cassandra is an idiot too, than why are we debating Cullen?

[xSammy13x]

I think the last thing I'm going to say is what's been said before:

 

They're our advisors. They listen to us. Leliana certainly was never a spy master in Origins, but if that changed while she was working directly for the Divine is debatable for now.

 

Joise? She's basically a noble. Well, someone who is very used to dealing with nobles, but that may in fact get us screwed over at some point, if they have bad blood with her.

 

Cullen definitely saw his fair share of demons in Origins. He definitely saw his fair share of crazy stuff go down in DA2, and then there was a whole war and rebellion to settle in Kirkwall all before Cassandra shows up. He's seen fighting from many different characters. Is he qualified? Who knows. We shall see. I believe in Cassandra.

[Sifr]

But that assumes there were actual abuses of power to be concerned about leading up to the invoking of the Rite.

 

Why do I say that? Because up until the Rite of Annulment, Meredith was right. Orsino was a blood mage. There were blood mages in the Circle at Kirkwall. If anything, the lack of support for the Meredith's attempt to search the tower was the problem.

 

Meredith cracked down on mages because she suspected there were blood mages in the Circle. Turns out there were blood mages in the Circle. Why do we consider her actions before she literally was driven insane by the lyrium Idol to be an abuse of power?

 

Up until the point Meredith decided the Circle had so many blood mages that it needed to be wiped out, she was 100% on the ball about blood mage shenanigans.

 

 

Cullen had every reason to be hesitant to disobey Meredith's orders, because Meredith was consistently right about what was going on in Kirkwall. There was no way for Cullen to reasonably ascertain whether the Circle was mostly blood mages when previously he had believed there were no blood mages, and as of the Annulment he suddenly found there to be dozens of blood mages in the Circle. The rational thing for him to conclude would be that Meredith is better at ascertaining the existence of blood mages.

 

Up until attacking the Champion, who is obviously not a blood mage or friend of blood mages(unless you went blood mage spec and helped Anders in which case Meredith is actually right AGAIN and Cullen is being too lenient towards mages AGAIN).

 

 

Meredith. A little crazy, but much better at detecting blood mages than your average templar.

 

Exactly.

 

Meredith may have abused her power to delay the new Viscount and sentenced a ton of people who'd passed their Harrowings to undergo the Rite Tranquility, something that goes against Chantry Law... but when it came to being paranoid about Blood Mages, she was often on the ball, I'll give her that.

 

While I can't fault her taking a hard stance against the actual blood mages, I do think she went too far at times towards those where innocent and drove more than a few people to blood magic, simply because they were likely to be branded maleficar anyway.

 

Given that she was often right that there were a ton of shenanigans going on, Cullen and many other Templars in the order had a good reason to follow her for as long as they did. And it certainly wasn't their fault that their boss was being slowly driven nuts by Red Lyrium, either.

 

This isn't difficult to understand. Cullen was the closest individual to Meredith. He knew her better than anyone else. He was privy to information and insight about her that no one else had.

 

"What ifs" aren't relevant to this discussion. We are talking about Cullen.

 

All you are suggesting to me is because Meredith was hard to work with, better leave her to her own devices and run things? That sounds like a terrible idea, and as DA2 showed, it was, especially once she received the red lyrium from Varric's brother.

 

How has he come out ahead? Time and time again he has failed allowing many innocents to die. He does not have a resume of resounding success. He is plagued with poor decisions and questionable competence. The reason he would be a bad leader should be obvious. Poor leadership skills. Questionable moral compass. Slow response time. Nothing of his record is screaming success to me.

 

Exactly what insider information was Cullen privy to that we were not aware of, or any other member of the Templar order that worked with her closely? I'm having a hard time imagining that just because he was her second-in-command, the two of them were best friends who braided each other's hair?

 

Heck, Hawke knew Anders for years and they had no idea that he'd blow up the frigging Chantry? Just because you know someone, doesn't mean you necessarily know every single thought that runs through their head or if they one day decide to do something absolutely insane?

 

I disagree, since you opened up the line of questioning by giving a "what if" scenario by claiming that Cullen going to Elthina would have solved the problem, I think that my own little "what if" remains valid? Tell me, what would you have done if you were the Knight-Captain and you thought Meredith was crazy and tried to bring it to the Chantry's attention, only for Elthina to give you a "Don't worry about it" speech and send you back to the Gallows?

 

I wasn't saying to just let Meredith run things by herself, I was just saying that she's a pretty strict commander who was accustomed to getting her own way and being obeyed by the troops under her command. But I don't see what the Red Lyrium has to do with that, since no-one could have known that the fancy new sword she was carrying around, was driving her slowing insane?

 

Again, how is any of the deaths in Kirkwall from the Qunari or the Gallows Incident, in any way Cullen's fault?

 

The Templars had absolutely no say in the events of the Qunari crisis, Hawke and the Viscount were the ones dealing with that situation. Secondly, when the Qunari attacked, the Templars were busy watching the mages, as is their job. As for the Gallows Incident, the Templars were once again trying to contain the situation in the Gallows, which again, was their job, while the rebellion in the city was apparently the result of mages outside of the Circle? Even so, we do see Templars in the city try to contain the situation?

 

When he relieved Meredith of command, everyone immediately followed Cullen's lead. His moral compass shows a reasonable judgment when dealing with both Keran's potential possession, as well as during the Gallows incident in wanting to spare any innocent mages who surrendered to the Templars and were not seen using blood magic?

 

I'm sorry, but you're really stretching for reasons for why Cullen isn't suitable for this job? Mostly it seems to be personal bias (indeed, the only aspect of the title of this thread that appears to be apparent at this point), towards a character that you don't like?

[The Elder King]

Okay, I can accept this and will say instead that her judgement was very questionable.

Oh, I definitely agree with this. The Major reason I supported The mages instead of The templars in my canon is that the Annulment shouldn't have been called for What Anders did.

On Cullen, I think bioware confirmed advisors won't leave us, so I doubt there'll be many problems if We support mages. Even in the streaming, Where he stated his preference in recruiting The templars, he didn't show any anti-mage view.

[Revan Reborn]

Exactly.

 

Meredith may have abused her power to delay the new Viscount and sentenced a ton of people who'd passed their Harrowings to undergo the Rite Tranquility, something that goes against Chantry Law... but when it came to being paranoid about Blood Mages, she was often on the ball, I'll give her that.

 

While I can't fault her taking a hard stance against the actual blood mages, I do think she went too far at times towards those where innocent and drove more than a few people to blood magic, simply because they were likely to be branded maleficar anyway.

 

Given that she was often right that there were a ton of shenanigans going on, Cullen and many other Templars in the order had a good reason to follow her for as long as they did. And it certainly wasn't their fault that their boss was being slowly driven nuts by Red Lyrium, either.

 

 

Exactly what insider information was Cullen privy to that we were not aware of, or any other member of the Templar order that worked with her closely? I'm having a hard time imagining that just because he was her second-in-command, the two of them were best friends who braided each other's hair?

 

Heck, Hawke knew Anders for years and they had no idea that he'd blow up the frigging Chantry? Just because you know someone, doesn't mean you necessarily know every single thought that runs through their head or if they one day decide to do something absolutely insane?

 

I disagree, since you opened up the line of questioning by giving a "what if" scenario by claiming that Cullen going to Elthina would have solved the problem, I think that my own little "what if" remains valid? Tell me, what would you have done if you were the Knight-Captain and you thought Meredith was crazy and tried to bring it to the Chantry's attention, only for Elthina to give you a "Don't worry about it" speech and send you back to the Gallows?

 

I wasn't saying to just let Meredith run things by herself, I was just saying that she's a pretty strict commander who was accustomed to getting her own way and being obeyed by the troops under her command. But I don't see what the Red Lyrium has to do with that, since no-one could have known that the fancy new sword she was carrying around, was driving her slowing insane?

 

Again, how is any of the deaths in Kirkwall from the Qunari or the Gallows Incident, in any way Cullen's fault?

 

The Templars had absolutely no say in the events of the Qunari crisis, Hawke and the Viscount were the ones dealing with that situation. Secondly, when the Qunari attacked, the Templars were busy watching the mages, as is their job. As for the Gallows Incident, the Templars were once again trying to contain the situation in the Gallows, which again, was their job, while the rebellion in the city was apparently the result of mages outside of the Circle? Even so, we do see Templars in the city try to contain the situation?

 

When he relieved Meredith of command, everyone immediately followed Cullen's lead. His moral compass shows a reasonable judgment when dealing with both Keran's potential possession, as well as during the Gallows incident in wanting to spare any innocent mages who surrendered to the Templars and were not seen using blood magic?

 

I'm sorry, but you're really stretching for reasons for why Cullen isn't suitable for this job? Mostly it seems to be personal bias (indeed, the only aspect of the title of this thread that appears to be apparent at this point), towards a character that you don't like?

We played as Hawke in DA2. Not Cullen. All we do know is that Cullen had an unquestioned loyalty when it came to Meredith's decisions. It's never explained, and suggested because he had a long history with her and knew her better than we, as Hawke, did.

 

Lets not jump to absolutes here as that derails the discussion. The point is Cullen had unrestricted access to Meredith and conversed with her on a frequent basis, unlike anyone else.

 

If I were Knight-Captain, that answer from the Grand Cleric would not be sufficient. As my duty as a Templar to not only the people, but also to the mages as well, I would put my career on the line to avert any potential tragedy that could ensue. That's what any reasonable person would do if there was a real concern something terrible could happen. The Grand Cleric wasn't unreasonable. Meredith was the one who was unreasonable.

 

The Templars are sworn to protect and maintain order. The templars and the Chantry were the ones responsible for escalating tensions between the people of Kirkwall and the Arishok. Instead of trying to let Hawke and the City Guard resolve the issue, the templar leadership (Cullen and Meredith) should have taken responsibility for the actions of their subordinates and conversed with the Arishok directly. Instead, they ignored the Qunari and focused on oppressing the mages.

 

There is nothing to stretch here. I'm personally indifferent to Cullen as he has never been a central character. I have merely laid out his countless faults of failing to act, his slow response to crises, questionable judgment, and lack of seeing what's blatantly in front of him. I just find it curious BioWare would promote him to the rank of military advisor for the Inquisition. As I said before, I will use him regardless. I just believe based on what BioWare has written of the character, he would be a terrible advisor. That is all I have been arguing and nothing more.

[The Elder King]

Well, from What they said about Cullen The reason for his recruitment in the Inquisition is based on What he accomplished after Meredith's fall, not before.
As for why they decided to develop him in this way, I guess they found interesting to use a character who saw mages and templars at their worst, was affected and partecipated in those events, and create a Story for The next game.

[Adela]

There's a better method to explain this. Meredith saw the worst in everybody. Whether she was right or wrong is irrelevant. Because of her frame of mind, how she treated others, and how she was unwilling to compromise, she forced the more desperate mages into a corner with no way out. The only way you could ever say she was right all along was because she created the entire situation based on how she ruled. Had she been more forgiving, tolerant, and understandable, there would have been vastly fewer mages, if any, who turned to blood magic.

 

 

Funnily enough I think some of the bits and pieces you have mentioned  (witch i have highlighted/bolded)  pretty much describe the way you feel about Cullen, and other ppl's opinions.

 

Here is how I see your opinion based on your posts

 

"You saw only the worst in Cullen , weather others are right or wrong is irrelevant, because of your frame of mind, and how you are unwilling to compromise, to any other point of view that everyone else has. Everyone is wrong only you are right" 

 

No one here is saying that Cullen is a saint and that he never had fault in anything, tis true he had his fare share of mistakes, witch some ppl may consider relevant , from what he's been through and witness , while others don't see that, and its fine.

 

But straight up shutting down ppl because they see things differently and they don't share your opinion, and just straight up telling that they are wrong.... that to me seems like a low blow, and  that you only care about what you think and refuse to see that there is more to a character then just black and white regardless if its Cullen or anyone else.

 

Weather you like Cullen or not, at least hold your judgments/concerns  about what he did in the past and wait to see how he will be  in DAI, then you can complain weather he  still  is a so called "serial killer/mass-murderer " or not.

 

I doubt that many ppl that will join your/our inquisition will have no dark past, I'm sure that most ppl have some skeletons in the closet that they are not proud of. So no one will be a saint in the game not even our inquisitor because everyone will eventually kill someone weather is justified or not innocent or not, it all depends  how you, and other characters see things through their point of view in a specific situation  that you are put in and some times you have to act fast weather its the right decision or not.

 

 And hey guess what! If he  does give you bad advice on some missions you can always  choose to go with either Leliana or Josephine , no one is forcing you to  choose Cullen's advice every time if you don't trust/like him . That's the beauty of choice

[Sifr]

We played as Hawke in DA2. Not Cullen. All we do know is that Cullen had an unquestioned loyalty when it came to Meredith's decisions. It's never explained, and suggested because he had a long history with her and knew her better than we, as Hawke, did.

 

Lets not jump to absolutes here as that derails the discussion. The point is Cullen had unrestricted access to Meredith and conversed with her on a frequent basis, unlike anyone else.

 

If I were Knight-Captain, that answer from the Grand Cleric would not be sufficient. As my duty as a Templar to not only the people, but also to the mages as well, I would put my career on the line to avert any potential tragedy that could ensue. That's what any reasonable person would do if there was a real concern something terrible could happen. The Grand Cleric wasn't unreasonable. Meredith was the one who was unreasonable.

 

The Templars are sworn to protect and maintain order. The templars and the Chantry were the ones responsible for escalating tensions between the people of Kirkwall and the Arishok. Instead of trying to let Hawke and the City Guard resolve the issue, the templar leadership (Cullen and Meredith) should have taken responsibility for the actions of their subordinates and conversed with the Arishok directly. Instead, they ignored the Qunari and focused on oppressing the mages.

 

There is nothing to stretch here. I'm personally indifferent to Cullen as he has never been a central character. I have merely laid out his countless faults of failing to act, his slow response to crises, questionable judgment, and lack of seeing what's blatantly in front of him. I just find it curious BioWare would promote him to the rank of military advisor for the Inquisition. As I said before, I will use him regardless. I just believe based on what BioWare has written of the character, he would be a terrible advisor. That is all I have been arguing and nothing more.

 

So, what you're saying that if you're in the military, you shouldn't want to trust your superior officer?

 

The discussion has been derailed thus far, so I don't see why that would derail it any further? Explain to me how you get anything done as a "responsible" Templar when the Grand Cleric refuses to acknowledge that she needs to be replaced? Would you have tried to do it by yourself? Good luck mate, enjoy your trip to the end of that noose?

 

The Templars are sworn to protect people and maintain order, only when it comes to the Mages. They do not have absolute authority to stick their noises into every single bit of business in Thedas, not unless it involves magic or mages in some way? The only reason Emeric was investigating murders for example was because one of the mages had gone missing, not because it was his job to do so.

 

The Chantry and the Templars who were escalating things with the Arishok weren't doing so with any official authorisation, just Petrice and her following of zealots. The Templars shouldn't have had involvement with the Qunari, only the City Guard who are the actual organisation charged with maintaining order and protecting people in Kirkwall, as well as Hawke who was duly appointed by the Viscount to treat with the Arishok in his stead. This was a matter of political diplomacy between two heads of state, not something that needed any Templar involvement.

 

I must admit that last line made me chuckle, since several pages ago you asserted Cullen enjoyed slaughtering mages, his PTSD made him incapable of making any kind of reasonable judgement calls and that he was a hopeless lyrium addict who'd flip out and attack mages at any point?

 

Clearly, you are only indifferent to the character? No dislike at all in any of that?

[Vandicus]

 

 

Actually no... Orsino never became a blood mage until the very end, where he gave into temptation because he no longer could tolerate the discrimination and subservience mages had to endure under Meredith's rule. Honestly, you would turn to blood magic too if a nutcase like Meredith all the sudden decided you all no longer had the right to live. While there were certainly some blood mages in the Circle, it was far from everybody, and Meredith treated all mages as if they were abominations. Her methods were harsh, unforgiving, and unethical.

 

There's a better method to explain this. Meredith saw the worst in everybody. Whether she was right or wrong is irrelevant. Because of her frame of mind, how she treated others, and how she was unwilling to compromise, she forced the more desperate mages into a corner with no way out. The only way you could ever say she was right all along was because she created the entire situation based on how she ruled. Had she been more forgiving, tolerant, and understandable, there would have been vastly fewer mages, if any, who turned to blood magic.

 

Your entire analysis is off. Meredith created the situation because of her own unreasonableness. You cannot be "right" if you are the one who creates the chaos to begin with. That is irrational.

You can't just spontaneously use blood magic to summon demons(what we see dozens of mages do) or make a Harvester. Prior to the conflict during the Rite of Annulment, I too had assumed Meredith was merely paranoid about blood magic.

 

Mr. O was collaborating with Enchanter Frankenstein from Act 2.

 

The events during the Rite however, clearly indicate that the Circle did actually have a significant number of highly educated and skilled blood mages.

 

Mages don't become blood mages under pressure, they become abominations. Big difference.

 

You can spontaneously be possessed. You cannot spontaneously learn advanced magic.

 

"Oh, I'm being repressed, lets learn the magic that's powered by pain that is one of the reasons we're being investigated for in the first place."

 

Falling to possession under duress is one thing, spending years learning how to kill people en masse, mind control people, and power your magic off the suffering of others is entirely another thing, and to claim no culpability for the latter because "I was probably going to get investigated for it anyways" isn't sound.

 

 

Also, despite claims of Meredith's supposedly intolerable behavior, note that its not the Circle mages who start the conflict, but an apostate outsider intent on murder-suicide(yes, he does want to die in order to free Justice). Anders is clearly not in his right mind, and directly contradicts his previous attitudes and statements regarding the Circle and the value of life in general.

 

 

Also, those mages being Tranquiled? We meet more blood mages in game than people get Tranquiled during our stay in Kirkwall IIRC Anders brings up that Meredith had Tranquiled "as many as 12 mages in the past year", treating that as if it were a huge number.

 

There are more blood mages that we have to fight and kill than mages being stripped of their magic and personality. Hawke kills more blood mages than Meredith Tranquils. And we call Meredith harsh?

[Revan Reborn]

Funnily enough I think some of the bits and pieces you have mentioned  (witch i have highlighted/bolded)  pretty much describe the way you feel about Cullen, and other ppl's opinions.

 

Here is how I see your opinion based on your posts

 

"You saw only the worst in Cullen , weather others are right or wrong is irrelevant, because of your frame of mind, and how you are unwilling to compromise, to any other point of view that everyone else has. Everyone is wrong only you are right" 

 

No one here is saying that Cullen is a saint and that he never had fault in anything, tis true he had his fare share of mistakes, witch some ppl may consider relevant , from what he's been through and witness , while others don't see that, and its fine.

 

But straight up shutting down ppl because they see things differently and they don't share your opinion, and just straight up telling that they are wrong.... that to me seems like a low blow, and  that you only care about what you think and refuse to see that there is more to a character then just black and white regardless if its Cullen or anyone else.

 

Weather you like Cullen or not, at least hold your judgments/concerns  about what he did in the past and wait to see how he will be  in DAI, then you can complain weather he  still  is a so called "serial killer/mass-murderer " or not.

 

I doubt that many ppl that will join your/our inquisition will have no dark past, I'm sure that most ppl have some skeletons in the closet that they are not proud of. So no one will be a saint in the game not even our inquisitor because everyone will eventually kill someone weather is justified or not innocent or not, it all depends  how you, and other characters see things through their point of view in a specific situation  that you are put in and some times you have to act fast weather its the right decision or not.

 

 And hey guess what! If he  does give you bad advice on some missions you can always  choose to go with either Leliana or Josephine , no one is forcing you to  choose Cullen's advice every time if you don't trust/like him . That's the beauty of choice

You would be entirely incorrect then. I am merely using DAO and DA2 to express what Cullen has done. We can play semantics all day. The events are in plain view. BioWare wrote the character, not me.

 

Perhaps you should re-read most of these posts, as it has actually been other posters trying to "shut me down." I merely listed the various mistakes and questionable choices Cullen made in the previous games. It was others, Cullenites or not, who then tried to make excuses or construe his actions in a different light as to make him innocent or immune from guilt and fault. I see that as silly. Part of what makes Dragon Age interesting is the fact that these characters are far from perfect. Cullen clearly fits that philosophy perfectly.

 

As I have stated multiple times, I will use him regardless because it would be a crutch not to do so from a gameplay perspective. I just find him a curious choice for the job is all. Is it wrong to have an opinion and express it?

 

I'm not suggesting anyone needs to be a saint either. However, people should learn from their mistakes, especially if they've gone through horrific and traumatic experiences such as Cullen. Based on what he learned in DAO alone, he should be taking every precaution to try and avoid another massacre, which inevitably happened anyways.

 

My Inquisitor certainly will take whatever Cullen says with a grain of salt. Thedas is at stake and the Inquisitor cannot afford to make mistakes due to biased and poor judgment on the part of Cullen. Thankfully Leliana and Josephine will be there to tip the balance.

 

So, what you're saying that if you're in the military, you shouldn't want to trust your superior officer?

 

The discussion has been derailed thus far, so I don't see why that would derail it any further? Explain to me how you get anything done as a "responsible" Templar when the Grand Cleric refuses to acknowledge that she needs to be replaced? Would you have tried to do it by yourself? Good luck mate, enjoy your trip to the end of that noose?

 

The Templars are sworn to protect people and maintain order, only when it comes to the Mages. They do not have absolute authority to stick their noises into every single bit of business in Thedas, not unless it involves magic or mages in some way? The only reason Emeric was investigating murders for example was because one of the mages had gone missing, not because it was his job to do so.

 

The Chantry and the Templars who were escalating things with the Arishok weren't doing so with any official authorisation, just Petrice and her following of zealots. The Templars shouldn't have had involvement with the Qunari, only the City Guard who are the actual organisation charged with maintaining order and protecting people in Kirkwall, as well as Hawke who was duly appointed by the Viscount to treat with the Arishok in his stead. This was a matter of political diplomacy between two heads of state, not something that needed any Templar involvement.

 

I must admit that last line made me chuckle, since several pages ago you asserted Cullen enjoyed slaughtering mages, his PTSD made him incapable of making any kind of reasonable judgement calls and that he was a hopeless lyrium addict who'd flip out and attack mages at any point?

 

Clearly, you are only indifferent to the character? No dislike at all in any of that?

First, the Templar Order is not a military. They are an arm of the Chantry meant to do the bidding of the Maker and prevent mages from becoming abominations.

 

Of course not. You continue to go up the chain of command. I would ask an audience with Divine Justinia V if I need to. The Chantry is an international organization and they would not want the extremist methods of Meredith to tarnish their public perception.

 

They do have authority to get involved when it is their own members that are causing the issue to start. Again, it was templars and the Chantry who escalated tensions with the Qunari to start.

 

If you want to treat a wound, you aggressively act upon the source. The issue was within the Templar Order and the Chantry. Hawke, the City Guard, the Viscount can all try to cover up and dress the issues however they'd like. None of it matters unless they cure the disease which was festering within the templars and the Chantry.

 

I never claimed that "Cullen enjoyed slaughtering mages." What I did say was that in his twisted perception and moral code, he believed killing them was justified and for the greater good. Certainly suffering from PTSD and being a lyrium-addict wouldn't help your frame of mind either. Suffice it to say, Cullen had some serious issues, which is why giving him so much authority was questionable. Again though, read my words. Do not construe or assume a meaning that isn't there.

 

No. I've been rather transparent that I'm indifferent to Cullen. Just because I do not believe he is qualified doesn't automatically mean I hate him. I believe he has been naive, had poor guidance, and is slow to make tough decisions, but I never expressed a sentiment one way or the other. I still believe there are others who are more qualified, but he will be used regardless. The Inquisition will live on, even if we have a few slower members in the fold.

[Revan Reborn]

You can't just spontaneously use blood magic to summon demons(what we see dozens of mages do) or make a Harvester. Prior to the conflict during the Rite of Annulment, I too had assumed Meredith was merely paranoid about blood magic.

 

Mr. O was collaborating with Enchanter Frankenstein from Act 2.

 

The events during the Rite however, clearly indicate that the Circle did actually have a significant number of highly educated and skilled blood mages.

 

Mages don't become blood mages under pressure, they become abominations. Big difference.

 

You can spontaneously be possessed. You cannot spontaneously learn advanced magic.

 

"Oh, I'm being repressed, lets learn the magic that's powered by pain that is one of the reasons we're being investigated for in the first place."

 

Falling to possession under duress is one thing, spending years learning how to kill people en masse, mind control people, and power your magic off the suffering of others is entirely another thing, and to claim no culpability for the latter because "I was probably going to get investigated for it anyways" isn't sound.

 

 

Also, despite claims of Meredith's supposedly intolerable behavior, note that its not the Circle mages who start the conflict, but an apostate outsider intent on murder-suicide(yes, he does want to die in order to free Justice). Anders is clearly not in his right mind, and directly contradicts his previous attitudes and statements regarding the Circle and the value of life in general.

 

 

Also, those mages being Tranquiled? We meet more blood mages in game than people get Tranquiled during our stay in Kirkwall IIRC Anders brings up that Meredith had Tranquiled "as many as 12 mages in the past year", treating that as if it were a huge number.

 

There are more blood mages that we have to fight and kill than mages being stripped of their magic and personality. Hawke kills more blood mages than Meredith Tranquils. And we call Meredith harsh?

How do you know this? We have seen multiple examples of mages dabbling in blood magic without prior knowledge in it. We saw plenty of that in DAO. Orsino never once gave any indication that he was a blood mage. Also, the moment he cut himself he almost immediately succumbed to demons and became an abomination. So really, you are undercutting your own assertion.

 

That's not how I saw it. Based on the investigations Hawke undertook, he found there were far less blood mages than Meredith was claiming. The issue is that the ones who were blood mages were trying to persuade the others to join, often having little to no success. So no, there wasn't this entire underground ring of blood mages running around. That was Meredith's paranoia talking.

 

See the issue with your post is you are speculating and making assertions that sound like conspiracy theories. Play through DA2 again. Half of the game you deal with mages and trying to figure out how many "bad" ones there really are. What we find is there are a lot less corrupted mages than what the templars were suggesting. Most of them were blood mages at all and were merely being falsely accused.

 

I think there is some confusion here. While Anders may have blown up the Chantry, conflict and bloodshed was going to be inevitable in Kirkwall. He merely concluded instead of having a long and painful drawn-out process, why not just get right to the core? The whole argument he was "insane" and contradicting himself is also not accurate as Anders was always rather transparent about his views, even in Awakening. Do I agree with his methods? No. Did he get results to resolve the problem? Absolutely. The way mages were treated was just morally wrong. There needed to be reform. It wasn't going to happen as long as the Grand Cleric took a blind eye to the atrocities and inhuman conditions in the Gallows.

 

Now you are mixing story and gameplay in strange ways. The point Anders was making, and rightfully so, is that Meredith was condemning more mages to lives as a tranquil than anyone else. The conditions in the Circle in Kirkwall were worse than anywhere else. These kind of harsh and unforgivable conditions forced some mages to turn to blood magic or become potential abominations. If you notice most of the mages in DA2, they didn't want to turn to blood magic or become abominations. All they wanted was to see their families and didn't want to hurt anyone. It was the anti-mage culture of Kirkwall that drove these few mages to fall making it seem as if there were a lot more corrupted than in reality. We need to put things in perspective, as a majority of the mages did not fall in Hawke saved them from extermination.

[Dunbartacus]

Revan Reborn i recommend reading the blurb under Cullen on The DA I website it Summarizes the reasons Cassandra chose him as the Inquisitions military commander. 

[Sifr]

 

First, the Templar Order is not a military. They are an arm of the Chantry meant to do the bidding of the Maker and prevent mages from becoming abominations.

 

Of course not. You continue to go up the chain of command. I would ask an audience with Divine Justinia V if I need to. The Chantry is an international organization and they would not want the extremist methods of Meredith to tarnish their public perception.

 

They do have authority to get involved when it is their own members that are causing the issue to start. Again, it was templars and the Chantry who escalated tensions with the Qunari to start.

 

If you want to treat a wound, you aggressively act upon the source. The issue was within the Templar Order and the Chantry. Hawke, the City Guard, the Viscount can all try to cover up and dress the issues however they'd like. None of it matters unless they cure the disease which was festering within the templars and the Chantry.

 

I never claimed that "Cullen enjoyed slaughtering mages." What I did say was that in his twisted perception and moral code, he believed killing them was justified and for the greater good. Certainly suffering from PTSD and being a lyrium-addict wouldn't help your frame of mind either. Suffice it to say, Cullen had some serious issues, which is why giving him so much authority was questionable. Again though, read my words. Do not construe or assume a meaning that isn't there.

 

No. I've been rather transparent that I'm indifferent to Cullen. Just because I do not believe he is qualified doesn't automatically mean I hate him. I believe he has been naive, had poor guidance, and is slow to make tough decisions, but I never expressed a sentiment one way or the other. I still believe there are others who are more qualified, but he will be used regardless. The Inquisition will live on, even if we have a few slower members in the fold.

 

Yet, you can't deny that Alistair commented that unofficially they are "an army" in Origins, they have military rankings and they serve as the Chantry's armed forces during conflicts such as the Exalted Marches or during the Blight.

 

So, you'd seriously got and pester the Divine just because you're unhappy with how Meredith runs things? You'd be laughed out of the room before you'd even finished your sentence? Who'd you appeal to next, the Maker? That's got more of a chance of working than what you're suggesting?

 

The Templars don't have the authority to stick their nose into the Qunari affair, as they've already proven that their involvement only further exacerbated the problem. In reality, the Templars would probably have to take stock and find out who was involved with this breach of conduct, least they get the Seekers come down on their heads for not keeping their people in line.

 

The Qunari were not a disease that needed to be aggressively cured, so I don't see why you think throwing the Templars at them would have resolved the situation in any way that is positive. The Arishok told the Arishok he wanted to negotiate with Hawke and so that's what happened. He did not ask for Meredith, nor anyone else. The Templar had no reason to be involved.

 

You didn't claim that Cullen liked slaughtering mages? Huh, it's weird because on page 14...

 

He was a lyrium-addict serial killer in DAO. That is undisputed fact.

 

... and page 15...

 

I might agree with you if not for the fact that this isn't the first time Cullen has slaughtered or asked someone to slaughter mages. He did it in DAO and DA2

 

... you seem to contradict that statement somewhat?

 

[Revan Reborn]

Revan Reborn i recommend reading the blurb under Cullen on The DA I website it Summarizes the reasons Cassandra chose him as the Inquisitions military commander. 

I'm aware of BioWare's rationale and saw it when Cullen was announced as an advisor. This discussion has been about what Cullen had done in DAO and DA2. What the short biography suggests about Cullen is Cassandra recruited him based on post-DA2 actions. This would lead me to believe Cassandra likely wasn't very familiar with Cullen's overall history and likely saw events based on how he described them.

[Sifr]

I'm aware of BioWare's rationale and saw it when Cullen was announced as an advisor. This discussion has been about what Cullen had done in DAO and DA2. What the short biography suggests about Cullen is Cassandra recruited him based on post-DA2 actions. This would lead me to believe Cassandra likely wasn't very familiar with Cullen's overall history and likely saw events based on how he described them.

 

So, a Seeker of the Chantry with a lot of access to the Templar Order, who was investigating the events at Kirkwall closely, had absolutely no idea who any of the Templars present during those events were, and just decided to wing it by hiring the first Templar she saw?

 

Sorry to keep nitpicking, but c'mon, that's probably the most far-fetched thing that's been said in this thread thus far?

 

[Vandicus]

How do you know this? We have seen multiple examples of mages dabbling in blood magic without prior knowledge in it. We saw plenty of that in DAO. Orsino never once gave any indication that he was a blood mage. Also, the moment he cut himself he almost immediately succumbed to demons and became an abomination. So really, you are undercutting your own assertion.

 

That's not how I saw it. Based on the investigations Hawke undertook, he found there were far less blood mages than Meredith was claiming. The issue is that the ones who were blood mages were trying to persuade the others to join, often having little to no success. So no, there wasn't this entire underground ring of blood mages running around. That was Meredith's paranoia talking.

 

See the issue with your post is you are speculating and making assertions that sound like conspiracy theories. Play through DA2 again. Half of the game you deal with mages and trying to figure out how many "bad" ones there really are. What we find is there are a lot less corrupted mages than what the templars were suggesting. Most of them were blood mages at all and were merely being falsely accused.

 

I think there is some confusion here. While Anders may have blown up the Chantry, conflict and bloodshed was going to be inevitable in Kirkwall. He merely concluded instead of having a long and painful drawn-out process, why not just get right to the core? The whole argument he was "insane" and contradicting himself is also not accurate as Anders was always rather transparent about his views, even in Awakening. Do I agree with his methods? No. Did he get results to resolve the problem? Absolutely. The way mages were treated was just morally wrong. There needed to be reform. It wasn't going to happen as long as the Grand Cleric took a blind eye to the atrocities and inhuman conditions in the Gallows.

 

Now you are mixing story and gameplay in strange ways. The point Anders was making, and rightfully so, is that Meredith was condemning more mages to lives as a tranquil than anyone else. The conditions in the Circle in Kirkwall were worse than anywhere else. These kind of harsh and unforgivable conditions forced some mages to turn to blood magic or become potential abominations. If you notice most of the mages in DA2, they didn't want to turn to blood magic or become abominations. All they wanted was to see their families and didn't want to hurt anyone. It was the anti-mage culture of Kirkwall that drove these few mages to fall making it seem as if there were a lot more corrupted than in reality. We need to put things in perspective, as a majority of the mages did not fall in Hawke saved them from extermination.

Name one instance where a mage is capable of using blood magic without having previously studied it.

 

And no, abominations don't count, that's a demon using blood magic in a mage's body.

 

 

As for the number of blood mages we kill over the course of DA2, its actually quite a large number. Except for like two, you never have the option to have a conversation with them, but they are nonetheless blood mages in Kirkwall.

 

 

We know Orsino studied blood magic. Why dispute that? He collaborated with a serial killer in his studies.

 

He also did not fail when he created the Harvester, he intentionally used advanced blood magic to execute a difficult ritual and voluntarily became an abomination.

 

You don't screw up your way into becoming an abomination of that scale. The evidence? No other abomination works like that. Its very clear that his particularly strong version  of an abomination is intentional.

 

The only intriguing aspects of this are that it suggests Orsino is actually an extremely powerful mage even by the standards of a First Enchanter, as he creates a creature more powerful than any normal abomination is capable of creating, and the abominations in DA:O were strong enough to overpower the strongest mages of their Circle. He is probably the only mage we've seen outside of Tevinter to equal or exceed their magisters.

[Rockpopple]

I'm definitely gonna deliberate what my advisors say and take the best route possible, and not fall for a pretty face.

 

Of course it's no surprise all 3 of our advisors are good looking people. Hmmmm... I see you, BioWare. I see you.

[Revan Reborn]

Yet, you can't deny that Alistair commented that unofficially they are "an army" in Origins, they have military rankings and they serve as the Chantry's armed forces during conflicts such as the Exalted Marches or during the Blight.

 

So, you'd seriously got and pester the Divine just because you're unhappy with how Meredith runs things? You'd be laughed out of the room before you'd even finished your sentence? Who'd you appeal to next, the Maker? That's got more of a chance of working than what you're suggesting?

 

The Templars don't have the authority to stick their nose into the Qunari affair, as they've already proven that their involvement only further exacerbated the problem. In reality, the Templars would probably have to take stock and find out who was involved with this breach of conduct, least they get the Seekers come down on their heads for not keeping their people in line.

 

The Qunari were not a disease that needed to be aggressively cured, so I don't see why you think throwing the Templars at them would have resolved the situation in any way that is positive. The Arishok told the Arishok he wanted to negotiate with Hawke and so that's what happened. He did not ask for Meredith, nor anyone else. The Templar had no reason to be involved.

 

You didn't claim that Cullen liked slaughtering mages? Huh, it's weird because on page 14...

 

 

... and page 15...

 

 

... you seem to contradict that statement somewhat?

 

Pre-Dragon Age the Templar Order had a capacity more similar to a "military." This was especially true when they were still the first Inquisition, but such mechanisms and priorities changed once they integrated with the Chantry and became the Templar Order as well as the Seekers of Truth. Templars are trained to counteract mages, not Darkspawn or Archdemons.

 

I find it humorous how you try to take a practical situation and make it absurd. Dealings of Templars are a matter of safety and security. The Chantry would take this with the utmost seriousness and given Meredith's history, would have reason to believe she was unstable and likely not fit to lead. Lets be honest. Had the Chantry had some oversight over the Templar's dealings, this entire situation could have been avoided a long time ago. However, such a safe and well-run organization makes for a boring game and story.

 

The reason tensions increased was because of a failure to communicate on the part of the Templars with the Qunari. If you never open up a dialogue, of course tensions will worsen as the adverse party will only assume the worst of you. I never stated the Qunari was the "disease." Re-read my post. I was saying members within the Templar Order and Chantry were the "disease," which is why they had authority to resolve the problem. The Qunari merely acted on the incompetence of these two organizations.

 

There was nothing to like. Cullen was killing mages based on a fear they may become abominations. This situation was escalated due to the fact he was having lyrium withdrawals and he had been tortured by blood mages and abominations. Again, you are trying to read my words how you'd like rather than actually reading the true meaning.

 

Doing something doesn't correlate to you liking it. He truly believed, in his own twisted mind, he was doing the right thing. I've said this multiple times and you continue to disregard it as you are attempting to find ways to undermine my argument, and with little success I might add. Just admit you were mistaken. Honestly, it would save you a lot of time.

[Revan Reborn]

So, a Seeker of the Chantry with a lot of access to the Templar Order, who was investigating the events at Kirkwall closely, had absolutely no idea who any of the Templars present during those events were, and just decided to wing it by hiring the first Templar she saw?

 

Sorry to keep nitpicking, but c'mon, that's probably the most far-fetched thing that's been said in this thread thus far?

 

You really have terrible reading comprehension skills. Read my post one more time. Cassandra judged Cullen based on his pre-DA2 actions. She did not judge him on his prior history. We would have to assume that she reviewed it or was familiar with it. I wouldn't assume to much given the fact she was only in Kirkwall for a brief period of time searching for Hawke. At this point, I'm just assuming you have no counter-arguments and so are just trolling for the sake of trolling.

[Revan Reborn]

Name one instance where a mage is capable of using blood magic without having previously studied it.

 

And no, abominations don't count, that's a demon using blood magic in a mage's body.

 

 

As for the number of blood mages we kill over the course of DA2, its actually quite a large number. Except for like two, you never have the option to have a conversation with them, but they are nonetheless blood mages in Kirkwall.

 

 

We know Orsino studied blood magic. Why dispute that? He collaborated with a serial killer in his studies.

 

He also did not fail when he created the Harvester, he intentionally used advanced blood magic to execute a difficult ritual and voluntarily became an abomination.

 

You don't screw up your way into becoming an abomination of that scale. The evidence? No other abomination works like that. Its very clear that his particularly strong version  of an abomination is intentional.

 

The only intriguing aspects of this are that it suggests Orsino is actually an extremely powerful mage even by the standards of a First Enchanter, as he creates a creature more powerful than any normal abomination is capable of creating, and the abominations in DA:O were strong enough to overpower the strongest mages of their Circle. He is probably the only mage we've seen outside of Tevinter to equal or exceed their magisters.

Look at the Mage origin storyline for DAO. Look at half of the mages during the Circle of Magi incident in Ferelden. The large majority of mages do not have a knowledge of blood magic. It's generally one mage who dabbles and influences the rest if anything.

 

Again, Orsino turned into an abomination, so do you retract your statement that he was a master blood mage concealing his identity all along to fool everyone?

 

If I'm not mistaken, I'm fairly certain that a lot of these "blood mages," especially at the wounded coast, weren't even from the Circle at Kirkwall. In fact, some of them were from other Circles. Again, you continue to make it appear as if there were an army of blood mages in DA2.

 

You continue to make a lot of assertions about Orsino without actually having evidence to support these claims. Again, there was no indication in the game Orsino was a diabolical blood mage out to get the world. That simply was not the case. He only turned to blood magic at the very end as he had given up on all hope. For the last time, it was Meredith that led these few mages to turn into abominations.