293 réponses à ce sujet

[Blisscolas]

So I was thinking about this last evening after watching Cameron Lee showing the crafting in the last twitch stream:

 

Is the automatic assignement of attribute points a way to avoid your character being absolutely overpowering?

 

We all remember the arcane mage in DA:O and its tankiness. Thanks to this you were able to solo your way through the game and not even feel threatened in the least. I know DA2 doesn't really compare in terms of difficulty, but I remember that having the blood mage specialization and respecing full magic and constitution made you into an absolute monster that would just walk through any dungeons without being the least afraid of enemies.

 

What these two have in common is that if you assign attribute points with the "automatic" button, you wouldn't necessarily end with the same build of OP character.

 

My take on the annouced changes in DA:I is that the combat system and class specialization were redesigned in such a way that they would actually give a challenge.Transforming the knight enchanter in a more DPS class with high risk/high reward rather than a tanky arcane mage, limited potions, no healing, automatically assigning attribute points and growing your atribute points through your gear set restrictions on the way you build your character but also allow for more rewarding fights.

 

I think the combat system with harder fights and higher risk will force players to engage in more tactical combat or at least strategize a little more. You would still get to spec your character via gear crafting (which in turn pushes you to exploration) and get someone with 150+ constitution (full constitution gear) but you would still lose to a dragon because you don't do enough damage. Once again Bioware forces you to use your companions and your party to the fullest and strategize.

 

Thank you Bioware for thinking out an engaging combat system, let's see how it plays out.

 

What is your take on this?

[xkg]

My take is : let us assign attribute points and bring back "auto level up" button.

Those who wants challenge can use that button for game to assign those points for them(how it works now).

Those who like to play super heroes will do that manually.

 

This way everyone can play the way they like, and it doesn't take away anything from anyone.

 

Besides, who cares about me making my PC overpowered. It is a single player game.

[seraphymon]

Not to mention that they said crafting is optional. Well in a sense yes. But if you want to assign specific attributes and progress through higher difficulty, then crafting is required. Granted it looks awesome and stuff, but it shouldn't be the main method to assign your attributes

[Blisscolas]

My take is : let us assign attribute points and bring back "auto level up" button.

Those who wants challenge can use that button for game to assign those points for them(how it works now).

Those who like to play super heroes will do that manually.

 

This way everyone can play the way they like, and it doesn't take away anything from anyone.

 

Besides, who cares about me making my PC overpowered. It is a single player game.

 

I guess that we think a little bit differently in terms of how we play games. I think they wanted to not only focus the player on the story but also on the way he/she engages in combat in order to make them more meaningful. I felt that in every dragon age game, most combat was kind of a "pause between two story events". This time around I feel they wanted to engage us more.

 

 

Not to mention that they said crafting is optional. Well in a sense yes. But if you want to assign specific attributes and progress through higher difficulty, then crafting is required. Granted it looks awesome and stuff, but it shouldn't be the main method to assign your attributes

 

I think this also has to do with the EA policy of making stuff more "share-able". This system gives possibly tons of variations in gear. Players have to share information with each other in order to perfect their crafting ("what is the optimal gear to take down enemy x?" kind of thing).

 

 

I don't think either of the systems is better (granted I haven't tried out DA:I), but I think they both make sense. It's just the balancing that's done differently

[Paul E Dangerously]

Really not fond of it. Since DA2, Bioware's taken a firm position of "give the player less to build a character with". First it's the weapon and armor restrictions, then ability slot restrictions, and now you can't even assign your own attributes without using the supposedly optional crafting system.

 

In DAO/2, if I want to make a vulnerable character slightly less so - like a mage, who can't wear armor (w/o STR or Arcane Warrior in DAO, or whatsoever in DA2) I can pop up their CON to give them a larger HP pool. In DAI, I'm forced to resort to gear.

 

Actually, I guess that's my problem with it.- DAI's design process seems to be gear-building, not character-building.

[thevaleyard]

DAI has a lot of MMO style mechanics like this (8 ability slot restriction + making attributes dependent on gear, etc) which I really dislike. If I wanted to play an MMO I wouldn't play Dragon Age.

 

Plus if it aint broke don't fix it.

[Wulfram]

The crafting will probably ultimately give the player more control over the character's stats than existed in previous games, and thus more potential to be overpowered.

[Muspade]

Plus if it aint broke don't fix it.

Problem was, combat was broken so they are fixing it.

I am still confused why allocating attributes is considered "character customization".

Ce la vie...

[Paul E Dangerously]

Problem was, combat was broken so they are fixing it.

I am still confused why allocating attributes is considered "character customization".

Ce la vie...

 

How? In DAO, by combining attributes + weapon choices, you could have many build types per character without ever getting into abilities or specific types of gear. DA2 chopped those in half (or in some cases, by 3/4ths or entirely) and DAI's getting rid of the first element entirely.

 

It meant that my rogue could be different from your rogue, without even taking gear into occasion. Now they're all going to have the exact same build (focus on DEX/CUN) because that's what all the minmaxers did so that must be the only path anyone's ever going to do. And they're all going to use daggers if they're melee, because they can't use anything else.

 

See where I'm leading, here?

[xkg]

I am still confused why allocating attributes is considered "character customization".

 

Maybe in the same way as altering the stats on gear is called "gear customization".

I dunno, isn't it like that ?

[Muspade]

How? In DAO, by combining attributes + weapon choices, you could have many build types per character without ever getting into abilities or specific types of gear. DA2 chopped those in half (or in some cases, by 3/4ths or entirely) and DAI's getting rid of the first element entirely.

Muspade: I never considered attributes part of my actual character. They are an aspect of the gameplay, hence unrelated to the personality or character that I've created though I feel for the rogues who wanted to use more than daggers, however that was not my point when I said I did not understand "Stat allocation" to be character customization

 

It meant that my rogue could be different from your rogue, without even taking gear into occasion. Now they're all going to have the exact same build (focus on DEX/CUN) because that's what all the minmaxers did so that must be the only path anyone's ever going to do. And they're all going to use daggers if they're melee, because they can't use anything else.

Muspade: Character customization is, to me, the appearence of my character, his choice of equipment and my choices in dialogue and...choices? How I play my game outside those perimeters is not customizing my character. It's simply gimping my own gameplay for the sake of being "unique" for no particular reason. If you want an inferior character build, you're still able to do it.

 

 

See where I'm leading, here?

Nope. The only thing I sympathize with is rogues lack of weapon choice and nothing else.

[Blisscolas]

I think character gameplay customization (as in stat change) to be far more permissive with this approach. If you "miss" your character, you still get to correct him/her through gear. I guess, as someone said earlier, that you will still find a way to be OP with just the right crafting material anyways.

[Rawgrim]

It should be up to the player if they want their character to improve his str or not. Too much crap like this and the player won't feel like he is playing his own character.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Muspade: I never considered attributes part of my actual character. They are an aspect of the gameplay, hence unrelated to the personality or character that I've created though I feel for the rogues who wanted to use more than daggers, however that was not my point when I said I did not understand "Stat allocation" to be character customization

It doesn't have to be, though. Just look at DAI's character options, if you had full attribute and weapon allocations back, ala DAO.

A Qunari Rogue will play essentially the same as a Dwarf, Elf, or Human rogue - the agile guy that uses daggers. What if I want to play more of a hulking bruiser that uses an axe or a mace instead of daggers, but isn't a trained fighter - more of a thug? I mean, he's like 6'6"+ and built like a tank. I can't.

If it was like DAO, I could. Racial choice + attribute choice (in this case, STR/DEX instead of DEX/CUN) + weapon choice + abilities + gear.

 

What you get in DAI though, is just racial choice, ability choice, gear. Attribute choices are no longer under your control, weapon choices are restricted.
 

Muspade: Character customization is, to me, the appearence of my character, his choice of equipment and my choices in dialogue and...choices? How I play my game outside those perimeters is not customizing my character. It's simply gimping my own gameplay for the sake of being "unique" for no particular reason. If you want an inferior character build, you're still able to do it.

 

What does "inferior" have to do with anything? I could do at least half a dozen rogue character builds that don't touch DEX/CUN + dual daggers and they're not "gimped".

If you don't care about the mechanical end of it, I'm fine with that. I'm sure there are a lot of people that don't see why some of us care that you can't choose your own attributes, or that your weapon choices have been cut off at the knees. A lot of people didn't see a problem with DA2 being limited to humans only, either, because "everyone played one". Just because you don't care doesn't mean everyone doesn't.

[Muspade]

What you get in DAI though, is just racial choice, ability choice, gear. Attribute choices are no longer under your control, weapon choices are restricted.

 

Only weapon choice saddens me and I repeat, stats was never part of my vision for my character. The rest of what you've said, I've already kinda answered.

 

 I could do at least half a dozen rogue character builds that don't touch DEX/CUN + dual daggers and they're not "gimped".

I contribute that to DA:O's lack of actual difficulty. I don't believe it's possible to create a difficult game if you need to soften it so people can "Roleplay" with their stat allocation which is purely gameplay.

I guess this is just the case of:

[Navasha]

I have never once seen 'forced restrictions' as a net positive.   Of course, its easier to control how people play when you take their ability to make choices away.   That's a given, but its NEVER a good thing.  

 

Basically, they have completely stripped away our ability to think for ourselves and make the characters how we choose to do so, effectively pigeon-holing us into 'standard' builds.  

 

Things in this world are not 'better' simply because some choose to lower the standard.   Nope, the new limit on how we are allowed to shape our characters development will always be a net negative.  

[Muspade]

  Nope, the new limit on how we are allowed to shape our characters development will always be a net negative.  

Please don't attempt speaking for me. I've already done so.

[dlux]

Is the automatic assignement of attribute points a way to avoid your character being absolutely overpowering?

Wat.
 
Where in the stream was this mentioned or shown? Here are some links to the stream from yesterday on Youtube: Part 1 and Part 2

[Paul E Dangerously]

Wat.
 
Where in the stream was this mentioned or shown? Here are some links to the stream from yesterday on Youtube: Part 1 and Part 2

 

Nevermind that, here it is http://forum.bioware...ts-on-level-up/

[Blisscolas]

Wat.
 
Where in the stream was this mentioned or shown? Here are some links to the stream from yesterday on Youtube: Part 1 and Part 2

 

Sorry, I should have been more explicit and said "Cameron showing us the crafting made this question pop up in my head. The crafting effectively replacing attribute point allocation"

 

edit: unless you had no idea that attribute points were allocated automatically on level up. In which case what paul E Dangerously says above me

[Star fury]

I wonder how many times bsn will come up with the most ridiculous reasons for no attribute allocation or no auto attack. I would've used another word but already got a warning from a mod.

[AzukiJin]

I don't feel like having stats chosen for you should be forced. But if the game is balanced around that, I think it should be A-OK, if some people wanna just have a mage who is weak as a twig and have every sickness known to man, falls over on his own legs and incredibly dumb and easy to trick, but controls the fade like no tomorrow. Let them. It will actually make certain things more difficult for that person.

On the other hand, maybe they rather have it so that GEAR it self controls more of the attributes, so you can't pick "HIGHEST DAMAGE and BEST DEFENSE" Like... Arcane Warrior in only magic and little in Con, and then use lifegiver, Calien armor + Arms and Andruil's Blessing and simple be immortal.

However, with item that are stat-locked makes more of a pseudo-level lock instead then. As you cannot chose when you want 22 dex, but you will have 22 dex at level 7....In Origins, youcould get it as earlyas level 4 or so, if they start at 14 and only spend it on DEX. 

So, personally I can't really say what I think would be 'better' until I test the game myself and since I'll play on PC, there are mods that can just fix that tiny problem. And Since ME3 had mods (And multiplayer) I think DA:I will also have mods, so I don't view it as a huge problem for PC and on Console the game feels more like diablo anyhow. (No offense)

[Star fury]

My take is : let us assign attribute points and bring back "auto level up" button.
Those who wants challenge can use that button for game to assign those points for them(how it works now).
Those who like to play super heroes will do that manually.
 
This way everyone can play the way they like, and it doesn't take away anything from anyone.
 
Besides, who cares about me making my PC overpowered. It is a single player game.

Your suggestion is too logical and sound, we've dismissed it.

[Muspade]

Your suggestion is too logical and sound, we've dismissed it.

Your Utopia is not my Utopia.

[xkg]

Hahaha, oh my. I can't stop laughing.
 

 

Nope, the new limit on how we are allowed to shape our characters development will always be a net negative.

Please don't attempt speaking for me. I've already done so.

 

 

 

But few posts before.

 

 

 

Plus if it aint broke don't fix it.

 
Problem was, combat was broken so they are fixing it.

 

 

Yeah but nope. It wasn't for me. At least not as bad as it will be now.

 

 

So maybe follow your own advice and

 

"Please don't attempt speaking for me"