293 réponses à ce sujet

[DMaster2]

I'm still mad attribute points on level up are gone. That was one of the most fun part of DAO (and Neverwinter Nights in the past) and now it's gone. I hope mods will come soon.

[Sylvius the Mad]

If there is an absence of specific evidence for a particular case, then the natural thing to do is to assume the norm. It might be wrong, but at least it gives us a basis to work from rather than trying to make decisions based on nothing.

The logical thing to do is to draw no conclusion.

I know which I choose.

Ok, sorry if I misrepresented you. But many people are objecting to one abstraction (stat customisation being moved to equipment) , while favouring other ones ("traditional" levelling based attribute distribution) and claiming things like "lore" when neither make perfect sense as presented to us.

I agree completely. Lore-based justifications for attributes aren't going to work without a lot more background.

Lore-based justifications for mechanical symmetry in combat can work, but something as abstract as attributes would be a stretch.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm still mad attribute points on level up are gone. That was one of the most fun part of DAO (and Neverwinter Nights in the past) and now it's gone. I hope mods will come soon.

I'm actually quite pleased about this. Increasing attributes by level was one of 3E D&D's mistakes (which is why it was in NWN), and I'm happy to see that error corrected.

I'm disappointed that we don't get to assign our starting attributes, though.

[PhroXenGold]

The logical thing to do is to draw no conclusion.

I know which I choose.

 

The problem is that, with no conclusion, there's nothing to work with. The logical thing (assuming you wish to achieve anything) is not to draw no conclusion, it's to make reasonable assumptions based on prior experience and knowledge and draw a conclusion from them, but keep an open mind, be aware that your assumptions are merely that, and be prepared to change your conclusions should new evidence arise.

[AlanC9]

The logical thing to do is to draw no conclusion.

I know which I choose.

This came up in another thread, didn't it? My impression is that you're fairly hostile to working from provisional hypotheses. I don't see how that works as a general strategy when operating with imperfect information. I suppose it works if you're going to do nothing, assuming you're reasonably confident that doing nothing won't worsen your position. But how can you be confident of that?

[Sylvius the Mad]

The logical thing is not to draw no conclusion, it's to make reasonable assumptions based on prior experience and draw a conclusion from them

When a conclusion is necessary, sure.

It wasn't in this case.

The only reason I can think of to draw the conclusion you drew is to intentionally make the attribute system look dumb in order to support your point. It's a good debating tactic, but it's intellectually dishonest.

[Sylvius the Mad]

This came up in another thread, didn't it? My impression is that you're fairly hostile to working from provisional hypotheses.

I'm hostile to doing so unnecessarily, and I'm hostile to describing them as true.

We can often work with a system without drawing conclusions about inconsequential aspects of its design. If we already accept that the attributes are an abstraction, it then doesn't matter if the scale is linear beyond its effect on derived values. Its effect on derived values (like damage, or carrying capacity) matters, but that's it. Drawing conclusions beyond that is dangerous.

[dlux]

I'm still mad attribute points on level up are gone. That was one of the most fun part of DAO (and Neverwinter Nights in the past) and now it's gone. I hope mods will come soon.

I flew over the info and the new attribute system appears to be closer to AD&D, or more specifically the attribute system in the Baldur's Gate series, which is fine in my book - At least if we are allowed to choose how we want spend our attribute points at the beginning of the game. Although I do admit that it would kind of suck if we don't have any proficiency/ability/whatever points to spend on level up whatsoever.

[PhroXenGold]

When a conclusion is necessary, sure.

It wasn't in this case.

The only reason I can think of to draw the conclusion you drew is to intentionally make the attribute system look dumb in order to support your point. It's a good debating tactic, but it's intellectually dishonest.

 

Except a conclusion was neccesary, given that I was pointing out the ridiculousness of treating attributes as anything other than an abstraction. I didn't deliberately draw a conclusion that would make my point, I simply demonstrated that the logical conclusion does so. And it is the logical conclusion, based on the very limited information we have. There's nothing "dishonest" about doing that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Except a conclusion was neccesary, given that I was pointing out the ridiculousness of treating attributes as anything other than an abstraction. I didn't deliberately draw a conclusion that would make my point, I simply demonstrated that the logical conclusion does so. And it is the logical conclusion, based on the very limited information we have. There's nothing "dishonest" about doing that.

I don't think there is a logical conclusion available.

[Sylvius the Mad]

At least if we are allowed to choose how we want spend our attribute points at the beginning of the game.

We're not.

[xkg]

At least if we are allowed to choose how we want spend our attribute points at the beginning of the game. 

 

You are not allowed to do that.

 

 

^eehhh 

[dlux]

We're not.

 

You are not allowed to do that.

Hmm, well that does suck. It would have been better if the game just had an awesome button for lazy builders.

[PhroXenGold]

I don't think there is a logical conclusion available.

 

And I really don't get your definition of logical....

 

If you lack infomation, it is logical to make assumptions based on past experience and knowledge to reach a provisional conclusion.

[GeckoWackoss]

Please don't attempt speaking for me. I've already done so. ©

You aren't speaking to begin with.

[BartDude52]

Attributes majorly coming from what armour you're wearing or what weapons you're using is stupid, if you ask me. If I want a strong warrior (for example), then that strength should be inherent, he shouldn't have to wear certain types of armour or use certain types of weapons in order to become strong. Attributes that you gain from armour or weapons should be bonuses that complement your character, not something that is a major part of your character.

 

With the way the system is at the moment, I'm basically forced to use crafting if I want an optimal character build (something that's supposed to be optional). Obviously, I haven't played the game yet, so maybe this won't be as bad as I'm imagining it when I actually get down to playing it, but from purely what we've been told and have seen, I'm not exactly optimistic.

[Sylvius the Mad]

And I really don't get your definition of logical....

Deductive. Assumptions, being unsupported by deductive reasoning, exist outside logic.

People forgey sometimes that they don't need to reach a conclusion just because they can. And when they do, they'll often forget that they didn't have to draw it in the first place, so if their conclusion leads to a less pleasant gameplay experience, they blame the game, when they should be blaming their own assumptions.

[AzukiJin]

After watching the new stream that came out on youtube yesterday about the crafting, I noticed it seems to be pretty much replacing the way you assign attributes via level-up, as you can choose the exact stats you want. So I'm not sure how I feel about it. I can understand how Bioware was thinking, like making all classes have a standard stats and base balance of that, then you can add different types of armor that gives you boost to Magic, Wisdom and Crit% and maybe on Crit you gain back twice the value of the spell you cast in mana. (I've seen things like, on melee hit you can give walking bomb, and on kill you gain 10% chance to get HP and on kill you gain 10 magic for 20 seconds)

 

So I find the gear crafting to be almost perfect, at least in it's idea, I haven't tested the game so I don't know how well the preformance will be. 

So about the character's individual stats, I think from their perspective is making it so that it's better to have a high-level character than having a well-equip character. Which makes encounters against High-Level mobs almost impossible. Argument is then, why not having both? Well. Let's see. If you would have to have Masterwork armor at level 10 with amazing runes to be able to kill a team of level 20's and great Stratergy, compared to having 3 class cannons who can like 1 shot (if all use their best ability and focus fire) 1 of the guys and the tank just stands and absorb all the damage. 

Anyhow, I find the system to be acceptable, I love that they did do a workaround with the crafting system, which I hope stays there forever in all RPG's AND continue to be an improvement. But with the stats, on PC you can just mod it. And if you gonna play on Console, I doubt you honestly care enough about this in the first place, cause the game looks more like a 4team-Diablo style game then. 

tldr;
Crafting system looks AMAZING
Auto-level Attribute system, probably just there for easier balancing the basics 
Any problem you have with the game is possible to fix via modding. 

Edit: 
Bonus point. 
Like a few said before, in Origins, you could have a random* character and still finish the game with some trouble, but not impossible even on nightmare and you didn't even need to have unique items. 
So, let's just wait and see. You can customize more than a few people say but less than 100% freedom.

Modifié par AzukiJin, 21 octobre 2014 - 08:47 .

[BubbleDncr]

I always found attributes kind of pointless in this game. Didn't really require much thought. If you a warrior, you stacked strength - unless you were pretty bad, there wasn't any reason to put more than 20 points in constitution, and there were some abilities that needed Dex, so if you want to use tho, put some points in dex.

 

Rogues basically just stack a ton of dex and cunning, throw in some strength if you want to wear certain armor or dual wield swords.

 

Mages just stack magic. Put some points in willpower if you keep running out of mana. If you take blood mage, stack con instead of willpower.

 

It got even more streamlined in DA2. So I don't mind the game taking away my need to put a point in the same stat every single time I level up.