242 réponses à ce sujet

[Lux]

Health regeneration outside combat means the devs have to assume you are at full health each and every encounter. This means each and every encounter must try to outright kill the entire party to have any meaning whatsoever. 
 
In a combat system that is designed to wear the party down over time, the combat designers have more flexible options.

That premise is unfounded the moment I get back to camp and not only I've regenerated health but also have a full stack of potions.

The reason for health regeneration outside combat for me is not about preparing for combat; it's about optimizing exploration in a really big open area.

[KoorahUK]

I do like it when they actually give all those party members something to do in the pivotal moments. ME seems to be better with this than Dragon Age, though the Battle of Denerim counts, I suppose. What does everyone do when the Warden's out fighting a High Dragon?

Agreed. I would love it if you could send party members you are not using on warmap missions, and for x duration they were unavailable for party selection. 

Balckwall, Solas, Cole! Stop dicking about and go do something useful!

[KoorahUK]

That premise is unfounded the moment I get back to camp and not only I've regenerated health but also have a full stack of potions.

No, because when you get to camp you must rest or re-equip potions to regain health. If you watch the latest Twitch stream, Cameron restocked his potions and the party automatically chugged a few  - they didn't regain any health until that occured. Its nothing like automatic health regen out ion the field with no action required.

 

The reason for health regeneration outside combat for me is not about preparing for combat; it's about optimizing exploration in a really big open area.

 

Why does health regeneration matter while you are only exploring the environment? Is it in case you ... get into combat while exploring?

 

You can still explore the environment, all the game is asking you to do is think about whether every encounter you could face while exploring is worth the risk. Its asking you to get out of that "I MUST CLEAR THE MAP" mentality that makes exploration a requirement rather than a choice. Exploration carries risk, it should carry risk. Regenerating health removes that risk entirely.

[Lux]

 Regenerating health removes that risk entirely.

 

I had my fair share of wipes in open world areas from other games while still having health regeneration. I like options and a useful one is being taken away when combat is already guaranteed to have a focus on innovation and challenge.

 

I see the absence of health regeneration as an unnecessary narrow down of options and a cushion removal for casuals. It has the potential to backfire when the bulk of unsuspecting players start to try out the new combat system.

 

Most people are not that tech savyy nor have that much game experience to adapt to new experiences without some netting around it. I think that's the crux of the problem: the relative loss of perspective from greatly talented developers due to accumulated stress in decision making and crunch time, and highly experienced forum users that are very open to new challenges and without the need of a cushion.

 

It is of my opinion that health regeneration is removing a bit too much of a familiar background in lieu of a new combat system that may take some time to get used to. With health regen, this would be mitigated; without it, the perceived difficulty level will be enhanced.

[Blisscolas]

I had my fair share of wipes in open world areas from other games while still having health regeneration. I like options and a useful one is being taken away when combat is already guaranteed to have a focus on innovation and challenge.

 

I see the absence of health regeneration as an unnecessary narrow down of options and a cushion removal for casuals. It has the potential to backfire when the bulk of unsuspecting players start to try out the new combat system.

 

Most people are not that tech savyy nor have that much game experience to adapt to new experiences without some netting around it. I think that's the crux of the problem: the relative loss of perspective from greatly talented developers due to accumulated stress in decision making and crunch time, and highly experienced forum users that are very open to new challenges and without the need of a cushion.

 

It is of my opinion that health regeneration is removing a bit too much of a familiar background in lieu of a new combat system that may take some time to get used to. With health regen, this would be mitigated; without it, the difficulty level will be enhanced.

 

They're trying to innovate a little bit the approach to combat in this game. Change and innovation don't happen spontaneously, you make it happen. Players will adapt to this new environment eventually because it's not because a game is hard that it's not enjoyable. And a game can just "feel" hard because you're not used to its gameplay mechanics.

 

Some people may be better equiped than others for this change, but I still think it's a minority

[KoorahUK]

I

 

I had my fair share of wipes in open world areas from other games while still having health regeneration. I like options and a useful one is being taken away when combat is already guaranteed to have a focus on innovation and challenge.

 

I see the absence of health regeneration as an unnecessary narrow down of options and a cushion removal for casuals. It has the potential to backfire when the bulk of unsuspecting players start to try out the new combat system.

 

Most people are not that tech savyy nor have that much game experience to adapt to new experiences without some netting around it. I think that's the crux of the problem: the relative loss of perspective from greatly talented developers due to accumulated stress in decision making and crunch time, and highly experienced forum users that are very open to new challenges and without the need of a cushion.

 

It is of my opinion that health regeneration is removing a bit too much of a familiar background in lieu of a new combat system that may take some time to get used to. With health regen, this would be mitigated; without it, the perceived difficulty level will be enhanced.

I think you are missing the point that regenerating health will completely bypasses the changes and unbalance everything.

Combat balance has been done on the basis of a finite health pool - thats what the entire system is about. Regenerating health is by its nature an infinite health pool, only limited by the speed in which you engage in combat, which is impossible for devs to predict. Adding in regeneration will not help players adapt to the changes as you suggest, it will render the changes pointless and actually make combat a complete waste of time. 

I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding your perspective here, but it sounds as if the basis of your argument is "its new, people won't understand it" which I think is being hugely dismissive of the average players capability.

Any new system, in any field, has a learning curve. We don't know how steep that curve is, or what mechanics devs have in place for helping players crest it but saying changes shouldn't be implemented because a curve exists solves nothing I'm afraid. 

[Lux]

No worries, Koorah

 

It's just that I've seen enough of hindsight critique and backlashes that could now coincide with my current opinion that I felt the need to establish this particular viewpoint.

 

I appreciate your input.

[KoorahUK]

No worries, Koorah

 

It's just that I've seen enough of hindsight critique and backlashes that could now coincide with my current opinion that I felt the need to establish this particular viewpoint.

 

I appreciate your input.

Its all good mate. This is Feedback and Suggestions after all, and I enjoyed debating it with you

I accept I have no more evidence it will be an improvement than opponents do that it will be bad, but now that I understand where the change is coming from and its context in overall combat design I believe its a great change. Bold, yes but I love the shift in emphasis to "threat over time" rather than "spike threat". Whetehr devs are able to deliver on the theory.... well thats a different argument and one that will ahve to wait until we get our greedy mitts on the game.

[LightningPoodle]

If you need health regeneration, it means your tactical skills need a lesson. The reason why healing is limited to a small number of items and abilities is because BioWare want us players to actually experience the full force of the game. Not just story, not just combat but both. It has been designed to reward planning and how you react to what is around you. If you died because you ran into a crowd of enemies and didn't use Barrier, it's your fault. It's a lesson for the future.

[PhroXenGold]

If you need health regeneration, it means your tactical skills need a lesson. The reason why healing is limited to a small number of items and abilities is because BioWare want us players to actually experience the full force of the game. Not just story, not just combat but both. It has been designed to reward planning and how you react to what is around you. If you died because you ran into a crowd of enemies and didn't use Barrier, it's your fault. It's a lesson for the future.

 

Or, you need to turn the difficulty down. And I don't neccesarily mean that in the sense of "you suck!!!", but more that, if you find the only way you can play on a setting is to do stuff that you don't enjoy doing, whether it's learning more complicated tactics, or backtracking regularly, turn it down, there's nothing to be ashamed of.

 

I could play the previous DA games on Nightmare if I really focused, but I didn't really enjoy it, I couldn't sit back and relax while playing it - which is the main reason I play games - so I turned it down to hard, or, in some cases like many of the DA2 bosses, normal. Likewise other games; I've beaten Civ4 on Immortal, but to do so requires me to spend a lot of time micromanaging things, which is not how I want to play Civ. So instead I play on either King or Emperor (depending on whether I'm playing as a weak or strong Civ respectively), as that tests me when I'm playing a more hands off "macro" game, without forcing me to take up strategies I don't get pleasure from.

[Phnx]

The game has been in development for so long, I think they have balanced combat pretty well by now. I am pretty sure I'm going to have lots of fun (and frustration ) when I play the game on nightmare from day one.

[AlanC9]

The reason for health regeneration outside combat for me is not about preparing for combat; it's about optimizing exploration in a really big open area.

By "optimizing" you mean "make it so I don't have to think about anything when exploring"? That's a mean way to say it, but I don't have a better alternative on tap.

[Lux]

Wow,

 

Didn't see this kind of aversion on health regen in other games, or that it implies you don't have to think about anything else while exploring.

 

It certainly is a convenience. It's like one more push before having to go back to camp, opposite from having to immediately go there. Didn't expect it to be such a blight on challenge - which I don't think it is.

[PhroXenGold]

Wow,

 

Didn't see this kind of aversion on health regen in other games, or that it implies you don't have to think about anything else while exploring.

 

It certainly is a convenience. It's like one more push before having to go back to camp, opposite from having to immediately go there. Didn't expect it to be such a blight on challenge - which I don't think it is.

 

I think some people are overstating the "challenge" thing. I doubt it'll be so much a greater challenge, as a different one. Rather than managing resources over a signle battle - a short period of time - you're managing them over several battles, and possibly a period of exploration.

 

That said, I don't know why you keep bringing up going back to camp. From what Bioware have said and shown, you shouldn't be doing so that often. You might well be pushing forward to the next camp in order to restock while progressing, but constant backtracking will in all likelyhood, be a sign that you're playing on too high a difficulty.

 

And I do think some of the vehement defense actually comes from the fact that you don't get this in other games. We're getting to try something new. We think it could be really enjoyable. And then someone comes in and wants the entire thing removed and a system which, if we liked, we could play in all sorts of other games, put in it's place. If you want a game with health regen while exploring, there are plenty of options. If you want a RPG where your health total is limited while exploring, with no regen and a constrained stock of restoratives, well, you've got DA:I...

[EmperorKarino]

So you want the injured to continue travelling after a fight even if injured instead of creating a camp and resting for the night to recover?

The way i would do it is if the injured do not rest until they recover then the injury should get worse until they eventually die.

 

if they actually get an injury, but you only get injuries if you fall during a battle, if you are just damaged then you don't get an injury, unless you are trying to put real terms into the game instead of how the game has functioned for the last two games.

[EmperorKarino]

If you need health regeneration, it means your tactical skills need a lesson. The reason why healing is limited to a small number of items and abilities is because BioWare want us players to actually experience the full force of the game. Not just story, not just combat but both. It has been designed to reward planning and how you react to what is around you. If you died because you ran into a crowd of enemies and didn't use Barrier, it's your fault. It's a lesson for the future.

 

you can still die if you use barriers. and thats like blaming at soldier for getting killed in a war.

[Aurok]

Putting in a *slow* health regen would be the worst of both worlds. Rather than it being obvious that you are supposed to be playing every fight as well as possible, it would mislead players into believing they are supposed to just get through the fight and then stand around waiting for health to regen. If you are going to have regen at all between battles there's no gameplay reason for it not to be instantaneous.

Personally, I grew up on the classic RPGs which never had health regen -and were much better for it because every moment felt important- so I'm all for it.

[dekarserverbot]

Because the all the evidence (i.e. existing games that don't regenerate health) predicts non-regenerating health is a bad idea.

Wrong kiddo, wrong. I enjoyed more the classical final fantasy era, the jagged alliance games, tabletop games, shadowrun, mechwarrior, etc... what all they have in common: NO WOLVERINE REGENERATION.

It is not as if combat never happened - you have The Loot^tm

This is not a ARPG, getting the loot without any battle scars makes this more like a "Fable/Zelda" approach than a more mature one.

Instead, it becomes walk for five minutes to the camp and back - after every battle.

ok... at this point you seem to be like the pest DA2 bring to the saga... there is bazillions of games targetted to your "easy life" style, let this one be or learn resource managment, is that simple

[LightningPoodle]

you can still die if you use barriers. and thats like blaming at soldier for getting killed in a war.

 

Don't get all technical with me bro...   (Sorry, I'm not mad.  )

 

Just saying, if you don't use Barrier and you die, it's clearly your own fault because you didn't plan. If you used barrier, along with other tactical planning and you still die, then rethink, retry or come back later. Those are the exact reasons why they haven't implemented a steady stream of healing in this game because if you aren't playing tactically, you aren't playing right. If you want to play it that way, then go right ahead but you can't b**** at BioWare because you keep dying if you aren't at least following the rules that are layer out for you.

 

- Sorry, that sounds like I'm being a b**** which I apologise for.

[LightningPoodle]

This is not a ARPG, getting the loot without any battle scars makes this more like a "Fable/Zelda" approach than a more mature one.

 

Except in Fable you do actually get scars.

[EmperorKarino]

Don't get all technical with me bro...   (Sorry, I'm not mad.  )

 

Just saying, if you don't use Barrier and you die, it's clearly your own fault because you didn't plan. If you used barrier, along with other tactical planning and you still die, then rethink, retry or come back later. Those are the exact reasons why they haven't implemented a steady stream of healing in this game because if you aren't playing tactically, you aren't playing right. If you want to play it that way, then go right ahead but you can't b**** at BioWare because you keep dying if you aren't at least following the rules that are layer out for you.

 

- Sorry, that sounds like I'm being a b**** which I apologise for.

 

now theres a fair argument for no health regen, thank you for being decent about it.

[LightningPoodle]

now theres a fair argument for no health regen, thank you for being decent about it.

 

Happy to be decent. 

[caradoc2000]

If you need health regeneration, it means your tactical skills need a lesson. The reason why healing is limited to a small number of items and abilities is because BioWare want us players to actually experience the full force of the game. Not just story, not just combat but both. It has been designed to reward planning and how you react to what is around you. If you died because you ran into a crowd of enemies and didn't use Barrier, it's your fault. It's a lesson for the future.

Heh, I thought I'd accidentally logged in the Dark Souls forum - this is exactly what you would find there.

[LightningPoodle]

Heh, I thought I'd accidentally logged in the Dark Souls forum - this is exactly what you would find there.

 

I've never played Dark Souls. I am going to get Bloodborne though which is made by the same people right?

[caradoc2000]

I've never played Dark Souls. I am going to get Bloodborne though which is made by the same people right?

Right.