242 réponses à ce sujet

[dutch_gamer]

This is a topic I wanted to create but obviously it would already be a heated discusion.  Sorry in advance I didn't read through all of the comments but there seems to be a lot of fighting over this issue when there doesn't really need to be.

 

Honestly the people who want to have the game with the healing the way the devs are trying to make it can have that game and that challenge, hell I might want to play that way on a subsequent playthrough.  But I think there are a large number of people who don't really care for it (such as myself). 

 

The reason I'm not liking what I see is it seems after 1 or 2 fights in most of the twitch streams I've watched, the devs have blown through all or most of thier 8 potions and basically have to run back to camp.  I don't want to run back to camp every five to ten minutes. Right now I'm debating cancelling my X-One pre-order and picking this up on PC because I know there will be a mod to fix the problem for me sooner then later.  Would rather play on the X-One though. 

 

TLDNR: All I'm really looking for is basically a toggle option in the menu or when you start the game. 

 

Default, no health regen after combat.

 

Toggle on, health regen after combat.

 

Some people may have already expressed this opinion of just including the option to turn on heal regen.  It doesn't hurt the fans who don't want it, and it makes the fans who do want it happy.  This is a single player game, if someone wants to throw of the balance so be it.  It is #myinquisition right?

No, it is not your game, it is BioWare's game. You can't expect developers to tailor their games around every single individual.

 

You already have your toggle by playing on a lower difficulty. In the "first" stream where the developers failed and had to heal too often they weren't even really paying any attention, so obviously that is going to make combat "harder". However, with a game designed around healing being less needed doesn't and shouldn't require a silly toggle. The only "valid" argument in my mind is people who are disappointed they can't be a healer but the other arguments used are mostly about people thinking DAI's combat is just DAO's or DA 2's combat with the healing stripped.

 

I am of the opinion a toggle does hurt. It tells developers they should always try to appease people who are afraid of change, no matter what. It tells developers they should just stick to the same exact combat with every single game they make. I am sorry but healing is not a necessary mechanic for RPGs and can be avoided with true support instead of a crutch.

[Sylvius the Mad]

So, something like Drakensang?

You know, I never played that. I bought, but I never got to it. Didn't even open the box.

It's on my shelf beside Alpha Protocol and Galactic Civilizations 2, which both suffered the same fate.

[phantomrachie]

TLDNR: All I'm really looking for is basically a toggle option in the menu or when you start the game. 

 

Default, no health regen after combat.

 

Toggle on, health regen after combat.

 

Some people may have already expressed this opinion of just including the option to turn on heal regen.  It doesn't hurt the fans who don't want it, and it makes the fans who do want it happy.  This is a single player game, if someone wants to throw of the balance so be it.  It is #myinquisition right?

 

No. BioWare have made a design decision and we have to live with that and see how it plays out. 

 

If BioWare provided all the toggles that fans wanted, then we'd have a crazy mess of a game, where nothing was properly implemented for fear of angering someone over a design choice. 

 

I was concerned about the change at first, because I'm not that type of player who is always looking for harder & harder combat. However the more I thought about it, the more I realised that it would just make combat more interesting rather than harder.

 

I'd have to pay more attention to the abilities that I'm using and think more about how I'm going to proceed. 

 

I'm a fan of anything in a game that makes me think more and that makes things more interesting. 

[Ultron IV]

I'm not worried about the difficulty of combat, i just don't want to have to break up my game time running back and forth, to and fro from camp sites replenishing potions if i "failed and had to heal too often they weren't even really paying any attention".  In the last stream cameron plain out wipes against enemy's at or 1 level above him, in other streams they're down to 2 or 3 potions after one or two fights, and they are paying a lot of attention since they are detailling the combat and tactical view.  It just seems like a bother, I've only seen one or two successful fights in  the streams where the devs didn't need to top someone off with a potion before moving on.  All the streams have been them going out, fight 2 3 small fights and go back to the camp to grab more potions...it just doesn't seem to flow smoothly, it's very disjointed gameplay...get worn down, back to base, go out, get worn down, back to base.  I'd just like an option to bypass the back to base.  And maybe it's not actually that bad, we haven't played the game yet, that's just my fear from what I've seen of the gameplay so far.

 

It just seems currently at the best of times you're going to go through a lot of potions and once you're out of potions it's back to camp or run around trying to win fights with 25% life. I'm all for a chellenge I'm just worried that its going to be just a challenge on my patients as appossed to my ability. 

 

I'd rather have a smaller limit of potions or other healing options during combat.  Just want the health back so I can explore where I want to go next without being interupted if things don't go according to plan. 

[phantomrachie]

It just seems currently at the best of times you're going to go through a lot of potions and once you're out of potions it's back to camp or run around trying to win fights with 25% life. I'm all for a chellenge I'm just worried that its going to be just a challenge on my patients as appossed to my ability. 

 

I'd rather have a smaller limit of potions or other healing options during combat.  Just want the health back so I can explore where I want to go next without being interupted if things don't go according to plan. 

 

I can understand this concern, but from what we've seen so far, there are multiple camps in an area and multiple paths to them.

 

I think it'll more a case of pushing forward to the next camp and choosing the safer path to get to it.

[Keroko]

I'm not worried about the difficulty of combat, i just don't want to have to break up my game time running back and forth, to and fro from camp sites replenishing potions if i "failed and had to heal too often they weren't even really paying any attention".  In the last stream cameron plain out wipes against enemy's at or 1 level above him, in other streams they're down to 2 or 3 potions after one or two fights, and they are paying a lot of attention since they are detailling the combat and tactical view.  It just seems like a bother, I've only seen one or two successful fights in  the streams where the devs didn't need to top someone off with a potion before moving on.  All the streams have been them going out, fight 2 3 small fights and go back to the camp to grab more potions...it just doesn't seem to flow smoothly, it's very disjointed gameplay...get worn down, back to base, go out, get worn down, back to base.  I'd just like an option to bypass the back to base.  And maybe it's not actually that bad, we haven't played the game yet, that's just my fear from what I've seen of the gameplay so far.

 

It just seems currently at the best of times you're going to go through a lot of potions and once you're out of potions it's back to camp or run around trying to win fights with 25% life. I'm all for a chellenge I'm just worried that its going to be just a challenge on my patients as appossed to my ability. 

 

I'd rather have a smaller limit of potions or other healing options during combat.  Just want the health back so I can explore where I want to go next without being interupted if things don't go according to plan. 

 

Two things, though:

 

1: Being a game developer doesn't automatically make you an expert gamer. Many times in game design, things that seem incredibly difficult from watching developers play turns out to be much easier for seasoned gamers.

 

2: The devs are playing to show things off. That means they're A: distracted by constantly talking, listening to and answering question and B: show of things that might not be the best actions to take, just to show of what you can do.

 

Many times during streams I went "Uhh, your barrier spell's off cooldown, why aren't you refreshing your barriers? And did you notice your archer is in melee? Get him out of there!" and more things like that.

[AzukiJin]

I'm not worried about the difficulty of combat, i just don't want to have to break up my game time running back and forth, to and fro from camp sites replenishing potions if i "failed and had to heal too often they weren't even really paying any attention".  In the last stream cameron plain out wipes against enemy's at or 1 level above him, in other streams they're down to 2 or 3 potions after one or two fights, and they are paying a lot of attention since they are detailling the combat and tactical view.  It just seems like a bother, I've only seen one or two successful fights in  the streams where the devs didn't need to top someone off with a potion before moving on.  All the streams have been them going out, fight 2 3 small fights and go back to the camp to grab more potions...it just doesn't seem to flow smoothly, it's very disjointed gameplay...get worn down, back to base, go out, get worn down, back to base.  I'd just like an option to bypass the back to base.  And maybe it's not actually that bad, we haven't played the game yet, that's just my fear from what I've seen of the gameplay so far.

 

It just seems currently at the best of times you're going to go through a lot of potions and once you're out of potions it's back to camp or run around trying to win fights with 25% life. I'm all for a chellenge I'm just worried that its going to be just a challenge on my patients as appossed to my ability. 

 

I'd rather have a smaller limit of potions or other healing options during combat.  Just want the health back so I can explore where I want to go next without being interupted if things don't go according to plan. 

I have played several fights in origin when I first got OWNED hard like all of my guys died before even half of the enemy were dead. Then I redid the encounter and I played full tactical, (I didn't have any heals spells) and I manged to kill all of them with just my tank taking 25% damage during all of it. (Playing on Nightmare)

Freeze, ManaCleanse, blocks, sleep,knockdowns, knockback, stealth and traps are all very useful if you wanna finish an encounter easily. They barely do that, like even if they have Flashfire (A fear spell) They don't use it nearly as often. 

The Tank with a shield, if they have hold position can pretty much negete 100% of the damage from the front. And if you add an icebarrier blockage behind the enemy melee units.You can easily shock the melee units out with a combo of knockdowns, pindowns, stuns, freeze and fear. You could also use your Archer to run a bit ahead with stealth and throw a sleep bomb on the archers/mages of the enemy to avoid them having a chance to retaliate. 

And if you are active with the Barrier skill, you can constantly use it to protect your allies for taking damage while they retreat. Also since, they have no health regen, they can have several smaller fights, which makes a 1-tank 3 classcannon with barriers very effective. Let's say it's 5 enemies, you can take out 2 almost instantly and the other 3 are disabled, then you take them out 1 by 1 quickly. Now you have just killed 5 enemies without even taking damage. Then it might be 8, you do thesame thing, might take a little damage on your tank butnot much, thanks to guard and barriers. Then you fight 5 again, take no damage.

Compare this to DA2, when you might fight 100 enemies in a single encounter with enemies jumping from nowhere, might be intense for that single fight but when that fight is over, it's like that fight never happened in the first place. 

Beside, I think the 8 Health potions will be upgrade to at least 15 in the end, including healing grenedes that will probably be 5(At max cap maybe), and normal regen potions that will also be 5. those are individual(I.E each character can carrier 5 of each), so in total you would have 40 medium-potions + 15 super potions. And if this is too little healing for you, man, then you might just want to play on easy. 

[Nerevar-as]

You know, I never played that. I bought, but I never got to it. Didn't even open the box.

It's on my shelf beside Alpha Protocol and Galactic Civilizations 2, which both suffered the same fate.

Combat is slower than Origins, just warning you, and take a look at the ruleset before playing, skill rolls are more complex than the usual more known systems.

[Ultron IV]

I'm not trying to talk about healing in a fight.  I'm trying to talk about afterwards.  And I'm not gripping about difficulty, I enjoy a challenge.  I'm just thinking you're not going to be able to just go out and do say one more cave or one more valley because you will probably have to replenish your healing pots. 

 

I think it would be a lot better perhaps if you couldn't use the primary healing pots in battle, maybe you could just uses a limited number of the equiped ones, and then have unlimited after battles.

 

All I'm trying to get across is gameplay looks like its going to be force into being disjointed.  There might be a better way to limit healing in battles to make them tougher while still allowing people the option to not have to run back to base.

 

This may all be baseless and maybe this isn't a concern to you, but I don't want to have to waste time running back to base just so I can keep doing what I was doing before, it's a mechanic that could potetially take you out of the immersion of the game over and over again.

 

Once again this is just a concern, I'm going to get this game and I'm extremely exited about it, this new healing system just has me worried.  I hope Phantomrachie is correct and it's just a matter of pushing forward to the next base camp and it won't be a big deal.  That would be great, but if that's not the case it will be a very frustrating mechanic.  It looks like even if you are the greatest most tactical player you're going to need to heal at some point, at some point you're going to run out of healing pots in the middle of your adventure and it's back to base for you.  Hopefully this won't be a huge issue, it looks like it is, I just wish they'd address it more in the gameplay stream because from what I've seen its not looking great.

[Xilizhra]

I'm for just modding in a Heal spell. Given that all you'd need to do is put the healing potion effect on a spell trigger, I don't think it'd be that hard.

[Muspade]

I'm for just modding in a Heal spell. Given that all you'd need to do is put the healing potion effect on a spell trigger, I don't think it'd be that hard.

 

Essentially, breaking the game mechanics instead of setting the difficulty to casual.

Well done.

[Xilizhra]

Essentially, breaking the game mechanics instead of setting the difficulty to casual.

Well done.

That would lead to stupid enemies who use abilities less often, which isn't what I'm interested in.

[Muspade]

That would lead to stupid enemies who use abilities less often, which isn't what I'm interested in.

 

You're interested In winning the game part without effort..?

[Xilizhra]

You're interested In winning the game part without effort..?

I don't see it as gamebreaking, because it's just as possible to go back to camp and restock after every fight. All this does is reduce the tedium of doing that while alleviating the lore-unfriendly gouging out of the Heal spell.

[Muspade]

I don't see it as gamebreaking, because it's just as possible to go back to camp and restock after every fight. All this does is reduce the tedium of doing that while alleviating the lore-unfriendly gouging out of the Heal spell.

 

Gameplay in the previous games was lore-unfriendly and claiming so while having watched Anders healing introduction...well, I'm baffled. By adding infinite potions you:

1. Take out the attrition and resource management gameplay.
2. Make certain that nothing can kill you as DA:I's combat is not based on burst.
3. Take out any difficulty.

That you don't see it as "game-breaking" doesn't make it less game breaking when the combat was build on "attrition". Too bad people can't stomach going down on "casual" because it might hurt their feelings. It's cheating as you change the rules of the game. 

Boohoo. Go casual or go home. 

P.S There is a heal / revive spell. based on focus.

[AlanC9]

You know, I never played that. I bought, but I never got to it. Didn't even open the box.
It's on my shelf beside Alpha Protocol and Galactic Civilizations 2, which both suffered the same fate.

Kind of surprised you never even tried AP. Though I'm sitting on a copy of FO:NV myself, which I'm getting to as soon as I finish-- er, get bored with Skyrim.

[AlanC9]

I don't see it as gamebreaking, because it's just as possible to go back to camp and restock after every fight. All this does is reduce the tedium of doing that while alleviating the lore-unfriendly gouging out of the Heal spell.

I suppose one could make the same case for adding a "heal and recharge spells" button to an IE game.

[Xilizhra]

Gameplay in the previous games was lore-unfriendly and claiming so while having watched Anders healing introduction...well, I'm baffled. By adding infinite potions you:

1. Take out the attrition and resource management gameplay.
2. Make certain that nothing can kill you as DA:I's combat is not based on burst.
3. Take out any difficulty.

That you don't see it as "game-breaking" doesn't make it less game breaking when the combat was build on "attrition". Too bad people can't stomach going down on "casual" because it might hurt their feelings. It's cheating as you change the rules of the game. 

Boohoo. Go casual or go home. 

P.S There is a heal / revive spell. based on focus.

In large part, it's because I dislike the mitigation options we have. Barrier is both uninteresting and requires way too much investment (as it seems half the Spirit tree is taken up by it), and both warrior taunting and rogue stealth are nonsensical in combat.

 

Also, the attrition isn't mandatory if you keep running back to camps. And Resurgence is a knight-enchanter spell, meaning I'd have to take Vivienne everywhere if I wanted access to it.

[Muspade]

Also, the attrition isn't mandatory if you keep running back to camps. And Resurgence is a knight-enchanter spell, meaning I'd have to take Vivienne everywhere if I wanted access to it.

Running back to the camp is the "punishment" for not preparing or doing combat properly. Yes, games have failure states and running back to camp each time you've lost a potion is an implied failure state. 

I hope you're not attempting to tell me you're going to be worse at the game than someone's 7 year old son, as that is what "Casual" difficulty is.

Edit:

and both warrior taunting and rogue stealth are nonsensical in combat.

 

Gameplay Is not mean't to reflect reality or even lore.
 

[Realmzmaster]

Regen or no regen changes how a encounter needs to be designed and  still remain challenging at a particular level. Simply putting in a toggle will not change this point. The encounter has to be designed with regen or no regen in mind. Designing an encounter with regen assumes that the party is always at full health and mana. Therefore the enemies have to be designed always for full party wipe with each battle. Also allowing a unlimited number or potions and spells effectively make the maximum health and mana pool infinite which again means that the encounter must be designed for full party wipe.

The party does not have to make a decision whether to forge on or not in a dungeon because the party is always at full health and mana.

 

No regen allows the developer to create encounters that can be weaker or stronger depending on the parties assumed maximum health which can be accurately calculated especially knowing the maximum amount of potions that can be carried and the availability of healing spells.

The party has to make a decision whether it has enough resources to forge on after combat given that party members may not be at full strength in terms of health and/or mana knowing that several battles may or may not be ahead of the party in making it to the party's destination. In my opinion it adds back from previous DA games that decision making process. 

 

Resource management and battle strategy become more important when there is no regen (IMHO).

 

The toggle does not work. Let's say an encounter is designed for Normal level with no regen in mind. That makes this encounter easier for the regen players to the point that is provides no challenge.

 

If the same encounter is designed with the regen players in mind then is becomes harder and more challenging at what is suppose to be Normal level for the no regen players.

 

The only way around this point is to design the all encounters in two forms: one for no regen and one for regen. That becomes a tremendous waste of resources and a QA nightmare.

[AzukiJin]

Regen or no regen changes how a encounter needs to be designed and  still remain challenging at a particular level. Simply putting in a toggle will not change this point. The encounter has to be designed with regen or no regen in mind. Designing an encounter with regen assumes that the party is always at full health and mana. Therefore the enemies have to be designed always for full party wipe with each battle. Also allowing a unlimited number or potions and spells effectively make the maximum health and mana pool infinite which again means that the encounter must be designed for full party wipe.

The party does not have to make a decision whether to forge on or not in a dungeon because the party is always at full health and mana.

 

No regen allows the developer to create encounters that can be weaker or stronger depending on the parties assumed maximum health which can be accurately calculated especially knowing the maximum amount of potions that can be carried and the availability of healing spells.

The party has to make a decision whether it has enough resources to forge on after combat given that party members may not be at full strength in terms of health and/or mana knowing that several battles may or may not be ahead of the party in making it to the party's destination. In my opinion it adds back from previous DA games that decision making process. 

 

Resource management and battle strategy become more important when there is no regen (IMHO).

 

The toggle does not work. Let's say an encounter is designed for Normal level with no regen in mind. That makes this encounter easier for the regen players to the point that is provides no challenge.

 

If the same encounter is designed with the regen players in mind then is becomes harder and more challenging at what is suppose to be Normal level for the no regen players.

 

The only way around this point is to design the all encounters in two forms: one for no regen and one for regen. That becomes a tremendous waste of resources and a QA nightmare.

True, in this game an Ambush is WAY more dangerous towards your party since if you are not prepared you WILL take at least a little damage, so if there are like 4 different ambushes including 10 small skirmishes and then a final boss, the Final boss could be quite easy at FULL health but after pretty much 14 fights before, you will not have all your potions and full health ready.

[In Exile]

Regen or no regen changes how a encounter needs to be designed and  still remain challenging at a particular level. Simply putting in a toggle will not change this point. The encounter has to be designed with regen or no regen in mind. Designing an encounter with regen assumes that the party is always at full health and mana. Therefore the enemies have to be designed always for full party wipe with each battle. Also allowing a unlimited number or potions and spells effectively make the maximum health and mana pool infinite which again means that the encounter must be designed for full party wipe.

The party does not have to make a decision whether to forge on or not in a dungeon because the party is always at full health and mana.

 

No regen allows the developer to create encounters that can be weaker or stronger depending on the parties assumed maximum health which can be accurately calculated especially knowing the maximum amount of potions that can be carried and the availability of healing spells.

The party has to make a decision whether it has enough resources to forge on after combat given that party members may not be at full strength in terms of health and/or mana knowing that several battles may or may not be ahead of the party in making it to the party's destination. In my opinion it adds back from previous DA games that decision making process. 

 

Resource management and battle strategy become more important when there is no regen (IMHO).

 

The toggle does not work. Let's say an encounter is designed for Normal level with no regen in mind. That makes this encounter easier for the regen players to the point that is provides no challenge.

 

If the same encounter is designed with the regen players in mind then is becomes harder and more challenging at what is suppose to be Normal level for the no regen players.

 

The only way around this point is to design the all encounters in two forms: one for no regen and one for regen. That becomes a tremendous waste of resources and a QA nightmare.

 

I disagree in part, because encounters are much easier when the game doesn't design each for full party wipe. So long as you see a small number of mooks at a distance, unless you're actively building in weaknesses into your builds, you'll basically nuke them into oblivion. 

 

BG1-2 suffered from this exact problem. The only difference in BG2 was that, well, every mage encounter was a full party wipe encounter. 

[KoorahUK]

I disagree in part, because encounters are much easier when the game doesn't design each for full party wipe. So long as you see a small number of mooks at a distance, unless you're actively building in weaknesses into your builds, you'll basically nuke them into oblivion. 

 

BG1-2 suffered from this exact problem. The only difference in BG2 was that, well, every mage encounter was a full party wipe encounter. 

But this is the entire point of the combat redesign. Encounters are not designed to wipe the party, so each fight will be "easier" - although I think "nuking into oblivion" is probably exaggerating somewhat based on the combat footage we've seen - but each fight WILL likely have an impact on your health pool and you have a lot of fights to get through.  

This means that each fight must be taken seriously. Just because you will likely beat them, doesn't mean you can take that fight for granted in the way that you  describe, or like you would with easily beatable mooks in a health regen system. You need to make it through that fight with as little health loss as possible because combat is now a distance race rather than a series of sprints.

[Lux]

I've updated my original post to reflect the feedback on this thread.

 

I like most of what I've seen of Inquisition so far. However, I feel that it may be missing a crucial component by not having a more pronounced form of health regeneration after combat in the lower difficulty levels.

 

Combat will be focused on the prevention of damage, which might be counter-intuitive to what players are used to, and healing will be more limited than in the previous two games.

 

Concerns

1. Players may be too dependent on camps.
2. Exploration in massive areas may be hindered more than it should be.
3. A good amount of players may not "get" the new combat/healing synergy to the point of becoming a source of frustration.

Suggestion

• On easy and normal difficulty, allow a slower rate of health regeneration outside combat (up to 30-60 seconds) that could be sped up by armor or weapon add-ons. 

OR

• Allow higher regeneration caps on lower difficulty levels: 65% on easy and 50% on normal.

 

This could provide a softer/friendlier introduction to the intended game play. Otherwise it may be too much of an abrupt departure to what players were used to in Dragon Age and in games with massive open areas for exploration.

 

 

A must read on the changes

A hands-on overview of the new combat and healing.

 

 

Planned health regeneration caps

• Easy: 50%
• Normal: 25%
• Hard: 10%
• Nightmare: ?

No regeneration if you are above the health cap.

[Muspade]

Nightmare has a 10% regeneration, too.