272 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

Lol, History minor. I am indeed very familiar with Edward II and the She-Wolf of France.

 

Nice.  And I keep learning new things about you, my friend.  We'll take it to PM and squee over our common love of history sometime then. 

[Gothfather]

I would like to see it played out in a typical fantasy setting.  That's kind of the point of the discussion.  I like that character type.  Kaidan fits it the best of the m/m options, but I'd like to see it in the actual fantasy series.  They've done it with Alistair and Sebastian in the past and now Cullen and Blackwall.  It's not that people are saying it's "unfair", but it's amusing that there have been 10 male LI's in the series.  Five of them were straight and four of those fit this stereotype.  While none of the other five do.  The DA team clearly likes writing these characters.  We are just saying that we'd like them to explore it with a gay character next time because that story has never been told, to our knowledge.

 

All this being said, I'm really happy with the two guys that I got this time around.  They are unconventional, but in unique ways and I find both interesting.  I would probably trade either one of them for Blackwall, though. 

 

To be honest it is only NOW that the ladies are getting multiple "Ll" in the series.  They had Alistair, but they didn't any in DA2, people seem to view rogues as none knightly and if a rogue can count as knightly for women because he's a noble then Dorian can count as knighlty for men. There seems to be far more leeway as to what counts as a woman's "Ll" than for men in these discussions and that seemss just like selective picking of teh facts. 

 

Cullen and Solas are late additions to the Romance stage and as I said before in this thread, metrics is the key to why the Ladies got their two extra romances. You are only going to add feature that targeted if they can show numbers as to why they beleive this will increase sales. Until enough men regardless of orientation start showing this is as an important feature to them as women have I think you can see more of this, with women getting more choice than men. Its not unfair t just market forces at work.

[daveliam]

To be honest it is only NOW that the ladies are getting multiple "Ll" in the series.  They had Alistair, but they didn't any in DA2, people seem to view rogues as none knightly and if a rogue can count as knightly for women because he's a noble then Dorian can count as knighlty for men. There seems to be far more leeway as to what counts as a woman's "Ll" than for men in these discussions and that seemss just like selective picking of teh facts. 

 

Cullen and Solas are late additions to the Romance stage and as I said before in this thread, metrics is the key to why the Ladies got their two extra romances. You are only going to add feature that targeted if they can show numbers as to why they beleive this will increase sales. Until enough men regardless of orientation start showing this is as an important feature to them as women have I think you can see more of this, with women getting more choice than men. Its not unfair t just market forces at work.

 

I don't know if maybe it's a language thing, but I think we are missing each other in this conversation.  Again, no one is saying "it's not fair".  We are saying, "Bioware, you like to make these characters.  We've never seen this type of character who happened to be gay.  We would like to see one in a future game."

 

We're not asking for more options.  We're asking for one of the options that we already know will be provided.

 

 

LI just stands for "love interest".  So, no, ladies have had multiple LI's since the beginning of the series.  And that's not really relevant to the topic.

 

Sebastian fits the 'white knight' archetype in every way except his class.  Dorian might, but it's not looking that way right now. He's an outcast.  He seems like a dashing, Robin Hood type in a mage's body.  He's not like a 'white knight' character from what we know so far.  I don't know how else to explain this, so let me know if there is something that's not making sense. 

[Semyaza82]

I don't know if maybe it's a language thing, but I think we are missing each other in this conversation.  Again, no one is saying "it's not fair".  We are saying, "Bioware, you like to make these characters.  We've never seen this type of character who happened to be gay.  We would like to see one in a future game."

 

We're not asking for more options.  We're asking for one of the options that we already know will be provided.

 

 

LI just stands for "love interest".  So, no, ladies have had multiple LI's since the beginning of the series.  And that's not really relevant to the topic.

 

Sebastian fits the 'white knight' archetype in every way except his class.  Dorian might, but it's not looking that way right now. He's an outcast.  He seems like a dashing, Robin Hood type in a mage's body.  He's not like a 'white knight' character from what we know so far.  I don't know how else to explain this, so let me know if there is something that's not making sense. 

As i seem to be doing a lot, going to agree with Dave here. There are several posts from me and others saying that we are are really not saying anything is unfair/unbalanced. Just a 'would be great to see this' sort of a thing. 

Bioware are without question heads and shoulders above any other game studio in terms of LGBT character representation (if there is some studio I'm unaware of would be genuinely happy to be corrected), so this isn't intended as one of the many 'You haven't put X into the game and are therefor monsters' threads. Rather an affectionate suggestion

[witchknights]

To be honest it is only NOW that the ladies are getting multiple "Ll" in the series.  They had Alistair, but they didn't any in DA2, people seem to view rogues as none knightly and if a rogue can count as knightly for women because he's a noble then Dorian can count as knighlty for men. There seems to be far more leeway as to what counts as a woman's "Ll" than for men in these discussions and that seemss just like selective picking of teh facts. 

 

Cullen and Solas are late additions to the Romance stage and as I said before in this thread, metrics is the key to why the Ladies got their two extra romances. You are only going to add feature that targeted if they can show numbers as to why they beleive this will increase sales. Until enough men regardless of orientation start showing this is as an important feature to them as women have I think you can see more of this, with women getting more choice than men. Its not unfair t just market forces at work.

 

the knight in shining armor trope doesn't have to do with being a noble, as in descended from nobility,  it has more to do with honorable and high morality; i can't say much on Sebastian's romance/character because I never played him much, but from what we know Dorian doesn't strike as the type despite being actual Tevinter nobility. 

[sylvanaerie]

It is possible to have a "White Knight" Archtype in any character class, though traditionally, it's there for the warrior.  Ivanhoe or Sir Galahad are classic examples of such.  Characters who observe some code of honor, observe courtly manners, are typically chivalrous with the ladies, and respectful of their peers.  Adjectives that can be applied to their characterization are: strong, protective, honorable.  They need not be knights to fit the archtype however.

 

In DAO we have characters like Alistair, Cullen, Sebastian, Nathaniel Howe and Aveline who all fit this as well, though in the past we couldn't flirt with Cullen, Sebastian's romance was not well integrated and extremely limited and Aveline wasn't romanceable at all, though you could flirt with her on either gender.  Sebastian and Nathaniel fit the descriptive despite being rogues because they embody some of the qualities inherent in the archtype, in particular Nathaniel changes as his approval toward the Warden grows.  To some extent the lesser characters of Thrask and Emeric from DA2 fit this archtype as well.

 

In modern culture characters such as Will Turner from Pirates of the Carribean, Aragorn and Samwise from LotR, Vincent from Beauty in the Beast (the 1987 tv series with Ron Perlman) come to mind off the top of my head, all characters of different background, but all sharing in this common characterization of loyalty, chivalry and a code of honor.

 

Dorian may be this type.  I think he's on a personal quest to improve the reputation of Tevinter mages with the rest of the world (or just to prove himself) which also can fit the archtype.  Not knowing more about his personality at this time I'm hesitant to say, but he is promising.  Guess I will find out in about 3 weeks now...

[sylvanaerie]

Ugh, how could I forget the classiest example of a class act in Dragon Age?  I blame the earliness of the hour I posted the previous entry.

 

Bann Teagan Guerrin imo epitomizes the 'white knight' archetype.  Nice looking, charming, kind, protective of those weaker than himself, decent, observing courtly manners, loyal to his family and friends.  I was struck by him the very first time I saw him in the Landsmeet giving Loghain hell.  And later in the game I saw him in Redcliffe and I literally pointed at my monitor and said, "I KNOW YOU!  You were the only noble who spoke  up at the palace!"  He was also the only noble in the gallery who wasn't a 'clone' of the others and stood out.

 

As striking as all that was, he locked himself firmly as my favorite NPC when he showed genuine joy at seeing Alistair alive.  Not for what he could get from the boy, but just glad he was alive.  Sadly, he was the only one in the Guerrin family who did.

 

And I've been a solid fan of the Bannhammer ever since.

 

*mutters* How could I have forgotten him in a discussion about white knights....*headdesk*

[Gothfather]

This is going in circles I agree. I keep hearing we never had the white knight M/M relationship and then people bring up kadian and its he doesn't count because he's the "mage class" of Me. Then there is talk that The Ladies get the White knight more often and peopel bring up Sebastian as the second white knight. Well If kadain doesn't count because of his class than why does Sebastian?

 

I really don't care that people want X. This thread was about you didn't give us Y so bioware is being unfair. And one person specifically stated

 

 

Nah, Bioware can't imagine how a heroic white knight type can possibly be gay, so they won't be in the game ever.

 

There was claim that this was tongue and cheek because it was the person to started the gay white knight thread but it is not. sandalisthemaker is not Battlebloodmage.

 

There is a reason i don't comment on the white knight thread because its simply people asking for X. Its not a thread that was presented that because we don't have X in the game bioware is being unfair.

 

Just because there are posters that don't think Bioware is being unfair doesn't negate the fact that this thread has a tone that bioware is unfair. its been stated more than once.

 

Here is are some facts on the white knight subject...

 

Bioware has done a M/M white knight romance option in ME3. (If the goal post doesn't keep being changed which seems to happen with this topic)

 

There are only two M/M reationships which means the room to provide all the various possible wants for a M/M reationship can't be filled.

 

And while there hasn't been a M/M relationship in Da:O or DA2 that was a white knight this can't as of yet be said for DA:I.

 

 

So go ahead a say you want X but don't claim you have never gotten it so its time, and don't say bioware is unfair because of their treatment of X orientation.

 

 I'm just tired of people trying to claim its never been done. It has. There have only been 4 games done by Bioware that have started to address equality in romance. In ME1 they didn't have it with regards to M/M romances. In the four games that they have tried to address this idea of fairness and being representative of the world we live in they have given us some pretty great Romance options for all orientations. have they provided all possible variations in partners? No but they just started. They simply haven't had the time to amass any deepth.

 

One caveat if Bioware had given a Gay white knight romance option with every game I still think its perfectly acceptable to ask for one. My issue is not in the asking but in people being selective with the truth and implying or out right saying bioware is unfair or hasn't given the white knight M/M experience.

[daveliam]

This is going in circles I agree. I keep hearing we never had the white knight M/M relationship and then people bring up kadian and its he doesn't count because he's the "mage class" of Me. Then there is talk that The Ladies get the White knight more often and peopel bring up Sebastian as the second white knight. Well If kadain doesn't count because of his class than why does Sebastian?

 

I really don't care that people want X. This thread was about you didn't give us Y so bioware is being unfair. And one person specifically stated

 

 

 

There was claim that this was tongue and cheek because it was the person to started the gay white knight thread but it is not. sandalisthemaker is not Battlebloodmage.

 

There is a reason i don't comment on the white knight thread because its simply people asking for X. Its not a thread that was presented that because we don't have X in the game bioware is being unfair.

 

Just because there are posters that don't think Bioware is being unfair doesn't negate the fact that this thread has a tone that bioware is unfair. its been stated more than once.

 

Here is are some facts on the white knight subject...

 

Bioware has done a M/M white knight romance option in ME3. (If the goal post doesn't keep being changed which seems to happen with this topic)

 

There are only two M/M reationships which means the room to provide all the various possible wants for a M/M reationship can't be filled.

 

And while there hasn't been a M/M relationship in Da:O or DA2 that was a white knight this can't as of yet be said for DA:I.

 

 

So go ahead a say you want X but don't claim you have never gotten it so its time, and don't say bioware is unfair because of their treatment of X orientation.

 

 I'm just tired of people trying to claim its never been done. It has. There have only been 4 games done by Bioware that have started to address equality in romance. In ME1 they didn't have it with regards to M/M romances. In the four games that they have tried to address this idea of fairness and being representative of the world we live in they have given us some pretty great Romance options for all orientations. have they provided all possible variations in partners? No but they just started. They simply haven't had the time to amass any deepth.

 

One caveat if Bioware had given a Gay white knight romance option with every game I still think its perfectly acceptable to ask for one. My issue is not in the asking but in people being selective with the truth and implying or out right saying bioware is unfair or hasn't given the white knight M/M experience.

 

What part of this aren't you understanding:  We are talking about wanting one IN DRAGON AGE.  Kaidan is the closest to it, but he's not in this series.  It's a fantasy trope and we'd like to see it in the FANTASY series.  Hence the other thread.

[boissiere]

About the romance, I totally agree! I want a bisexual romance that will be interesting for both sexes.. Why not takind a female dwarf companion for that ? (Or maybe adviser from Orzammar.)

[Kierro Ren]

Warden  - Morrigan, straight

 

Kaidan (yes Kaidan) Hawke - A regular of Kat's, the elf from blooming rose, but beds Anders (or gets beded, either way). That's how I made a bi character. That's just me.

 

Kierro (DAI)...  gay/Bi, not sure.

[boissiere]

I often begin playing just to dicover the game and not for searching the romance I want for that character. That means I often begins by romancing the first character I saw (Leliana, Isabella for male or Alistair and Anders for woman and I may go on Liara in mass effect 3 for example.) And it is only after a few playthrough that I think for other fun stuff (I remember there was no real modification for a lesbian or straight Leliana and I was disappointed and the same goes for Merrill). However, Bioware generally doesn't care for difference between straight and not straights romances for a character whereas it is absolutly not the same approach.

[TobyJake]

After Cullen in DA:O and DAII, he could never be with any mage. I will have heaps of trouble even being cordial to that man.

Blacklisted for me!!

[TobyJake]

I am male and straight! I only ever play female characters. This does get me into trouble with the Keep!

I have to use mods like Sappho's Daughters. But it does give you the flexibility to play as you want.

I can have Morrigan as a LI or Leliana. I can marry Anora. It doesn't break the lore. But gives a fuller appreciation

of the game. Would it be so bad to allow the player to establish the orientation of advisors/companions when starting playthrough?

The Keep is based on vanilla DAO & DAII. I am not worried, DAI is prepurchased anyway. Just my 2 cents.

[Gothfather]

What part of this aren't you understanding:  We are talking about wanting one IN DRAGON AGE.  Kaidan is the closest to it, but he's not in this series.  It's a fantasy trope and we'd like to see it in the FANTASY series.  Hence the other thread.

What part don't YOU understand?

 

As i stated BEFORE...

 

I don't give a rats ass about the other thread. Why? Because that thread was just asking for X in this case a Gay M/M "white knight" relationship. It has the tone of this is what we'd like to see because we like this troupe. ERGO I don't come on to that thread and say "You already had a White knight in ME3," because the OP isn't implying that bioware has been unfair.

 

So why am i commenting on this thread about it? Oh I don't know because on this thread the TONE has been Bioware is unfair to bisexuals and that Bioware can't see a White Knight as Gay so you'll never see it in the game. Both are unfair charicaizations of Bioware both are 100% FACTUALLY WRONG. So I commented on them.

 

AND as I said before...

 

Just because there are posters that don't think Bioware is being unfair doesn't negate the fact that this thread has a tone that bioware is unfair. its been stated more than once.

 

Are  telling me you can't tell the difference between the two statements that follow?

 

1)Bioware is unfair because they have never given us a Gay M/M white knight and its time they did so.

 

and

 

2)Bioware I would like you to create a gay M/M White knight.

 

That is the difference between the two threads. I don't comment on the 2nd thread because its not accusing bioware of being unfair. i do comment on the first thread because it is full of falsehoods.

 

If this was a thread of "Bioware is unfair because there is no redheads for me to romance. How come females at least get a blonde option in cullen  or a bald option in Solas but men only get two brunettes?" I'd be here saying the same bloody thing. Because Bioware isn't being unfair.

 

I seriously can not see why you are so bothered by me pointing out that the claims about how Bioware has never had the gay M/M White Knight troupe in their games as false or pointing out that the OP is being unfair to Bioware? What bothers you so much about pointing out these falsehoods?

[DetcelferVisionary]

Not to come in and take the jam out of anyone's donut... but these kinds of discussions put me in the mindset that Bioware shouldn't do any romances at all.

When people are requesting new characters to be created of certain molds and archetypes just to be their sex puppets... that kind of freaks me out. Nothing to do with straight, bisexual or whatever orientation you want - it's strictly the breaking down of people into certain demographics, appearances and sexual preferences made to order that smacks of people seeing Bioware as their digital pimps.

And now I'll just go sit in the corner over here.

 

As someone who rarely visits these forums,  that is exactly how I feel.  It's becoming perverted.  I stopped coming here just because of how alarming so many topics have become more about peoples erotic fantasies rather than caring about their CHARACTERS story.  To be clear,  people see themselves in their characters but it's gone beyond.

 

You deal with red button political issues and you're going to create a divide.  Luckily for me, the relationships in this game is such a small part of the game that I can generally ignore it. But no,  I don't find the agenda of Bioware to my liking and I'm not here to start a war with anyone.  But just like I don't like someone preaching to me on my doorstep of who's god I should accept,  I don't like peoples sexual preferences in my face either.  You can't escape the fact this will upset people.  

 

Bioware has thick skin,  I think they can handle the backlash and I think they should,  even if I don't agree with some of their major choices.  It's all about expression and opinion.  We've all got them.  Am I disappointed that I have 2 options as a hetero male?  Absolutely,  especially because one character won't even travel around with me as an adviser.  Do I think this promotes equality?  Not at all.  It should be about a story, these romance options are starting to feel like something else entirely.

[AlanC9]

As someone who rarely visits these forums,  that is exactly how I feel.  It's becoming perverted.  I stopped coming here just because of how alarming so many topics have become more about peoples erotic fantasies rather than caring about their CHARACTERS story.  To be clear,  people see themselves in their characters but it's gone beyond.

I must be reading the wrong threads.

[samuelkaine]

 Am I disappointed that I have 2 options as a hetero male?  Absolutely,  especially because one character won't even travel around with me as an adviser.  Do I think this promotes equality?  Not at all.  It should be about a story, these romance options are starting to feel like something else entirely.

 

Just so we're clear, you think you having the exact same number of romance options for your avatar as gay men, lesbian women and straight women who play dwarfs or Qunari is pushing some sort of agenda?

 

And no, assuming you mean same-sex relations, this isn't a "red button political issue". Acceptance rates for same-sex marriage in the United States now are at the same level as acceptance of inter-racial marriage in the mid-nineties, and the USA is one of the more retrograde of the nations in the Global North in this regard.

 

The 2004 Republican election campaign called, it would like its talking points back.

[Foxhound2121]

Should just go back to the any gender from DA2. What was wrong with that anyway?

[phantomrachie]

.

You deal with red button political issues and you're going to create a divide.  Luckily for me, the relationships in this game is such a small part of the game that I can generally ignore it. But no,  I don't find the agenda of Bioware to my liking and I'm not here to start a war with anyone.  But just like I don't like someone preaching to me on my doorstep of who's god I should accept,  I don't like peoples sexual preferences in my face either.  You can't escape the fact this will upset people.  

 

A person's sexual orientation is not inherently a political issue, it has been turned into a political issue by homophobic people and bigots.

 

LGBT people exist and including them in a game is not 'throwing it in your face'  There is no political agenda in including LGBT characters & romances, it is just BioWare acknowledging that they exist and in including them in the game.

 

That is all. 

 

I'm not calling you homophobic or a bigot, simply explaining that they are the ones that have turned a persons orientation into a political agenda.

 

I do have a message for any homophobes or bigots reading this thread though, it's in song form.

 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Is quite sad that some people still think the mere presence of LGBT characters is "pushing an agenda in their face". Im openly bisexual & i don't "push" my sexuality on anyone any more then any straight people would, but apparently being a normal person is grounds for ridicule & paranoia with certain people if you dare to openly exist as a non-hetro person

[Melca36]

Should just go back to the any gender from DA2. What was wrong with that anyway?

 

You basically want the writers to sacrifice how they choose to write the characters. Got news for you. They do NOT owe us anything.

 

They have the right to write the characters how they ENVISION to be and that includes creating characters of ALL sexualities.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Only if Sera become Bi too.