Funny guy. None of Hans Zimmer's work, traditional or unconventional remotely resembles music from DAO. As for DAO, we got the point a long time ago you clearly didn't like the music. I really begin to question arguments when one relies solely on semantics rather than substance to argue his/her points. You should be happy. Zur is out and Morris is in. Why argue with me whether DAO's music was good or bad? Clearly, BioWare must agree with you on some level. Truly a shame.
This isn't an argument about semantics. There's no debate over the meaning of what you said. You (1) said you think Zimmer's music has no soul or emotion and that it's lifeless and loud and (2) that you love Zimmer's music. This isn't semantics. This is literally copying and pasting what you said.
It would be nice if we were to discuss DAI's soundtrack again, rather than being distracted by an irrelevant side issue. In Exile, I would be particularly interested in your opinion of my statement that DAI's main theme, as opposed to DAO's, fails to establish an identity.
It would be nice if we were to discuss DAI's soundtrack again, rather than being distracted by an irrelevant side issue. In Exile, I would be particularly interested in your opinion of my statement that DAI's main theme, as opposed to DAO's, fails to establish an identity.
I don't think DA:O's theme did a good job in establishing an identity for the game, though it did have a lot of identity as a track.
Let me say, first, that I absolutely get what Inon Zur was going for - he opens with this ephemeral track, feminine vocals, and then in parts overlays the darkspawn theme he uses as a discordant note, with the idea being that the darkpawn are this creeping terror spreading through the fantasy world of Ferelden, all of which culminates in this epic heroic track (basically, the arrival of the GWs). Intellectually, this is the clearly superior theme, because Inon Zur is going for something. The theme in DA:O tries to tell the story of the game and the story of the world (Ferelden in this case).
The problem is that the game doesn't match up to that. Ferelden is a brown medieval craphole. It's not a paradise that's being encroached on by a dark horde. So in the end, while I think the track does a good job at establish a theme, it does a bad job at establishing the identity of the game.
For DA:I I used the following track:
I think DA:I's theme, on the other hand, is a lot less creative. It just plays like a leitmotif, which is very much what Zimmer does in his famous movies. I think it is basically far more of a Hero's Journey track. The track, first of all, actually runs a lot more like a narrative and flows much more like a story. It's all very adventurous. It's the kind of theme that plays well with large, landscape shots of New Zealand with the party travelling over it, then switches to a TV-esque intro of characters. You're sort of waiting for the shoe to drop, and it never does. It's much more like the personal leitmotif of the Inquisitor.
The track basically has three parts:
1) The subdued but ephemeral beginning that DA:O shares
2) A kind of epic/heroic crescendo (vs. DA:O's switch to discordant)
3) This adventurous, heroic track - the part that evokes the landscape shots and sounds like a leitmotif.
Basically, I'd expect the DA:I theme to play during the Inquisitor's dramatic, heroic moments.
Edit: Added a link to the DA:O theme since I realize not everyone would basically know it by heart like me.
It's all very adventurous. It's the kind of theme that plays well with large, landscape shots of New Zealand with the party travelling over it, then switches to a TV-esque intro of characters.
I have to admit I wasn't the biggest fan of Inon Zur's music in the previous games - sure there was some good stuff (Mage Pride is awesome, as well as the Origins main theme) but all in all, I found it somewhat forgettable. And there were times when the music got way too... dramatic: I think because the brass instruments got way, way too prevalent for my tastes a couple of times, particularly in the combat music. It wasn't too bad and I'd be lying if I claimed I didn't enjoy any of it... but most of it was just not for me.
As to Trevor Morris... I did some research when he was named as the new composer, and from the stuff he's done and what we've heard so far, I'm very exited. He sounds a lot more like my kind of composer, and I have a feeling I'll enjoy his work very much.
There's no way he'll become my new favourite composer, though (because Hans Zimmer is a god among men), but if what I've heard so far is anywhere near what we're going to get, I have a feeling I'll have a new name on my favourite composers list.
Origins had the better soundtrack than DA2s. I liked more tracks than DA2s. I liked the Main theme of DA2, the Qunari music, and Fenris's theme. ALL in all it was a rushed soundtrack.
Origins is more epic and emotional and brings back a lot of good memories.
I am LOVING what I've heard so far of Inquisition. I think most of the issues people have is the fact they hate change. I think people should hear the entire soundtrack before judging it.
To keep on that theme, let me try to illustrate what I mean by the difference between tracks that are a leitmotif and tracks that are more of a storytelling instrument.
Let's take Michael Giacchino (who I actually think is a lot more like John Williams than Hans ZImmer will ever be). Here's what he does for Stark Trek:
This is his original movie soundtrack. You can hear how it starts with a epic note, it keeps building (that is, it has a crescendo) then it has its payoff. It's quite literally the enterprise taking off. Then after that we have the dramatic, upbeat and optimistic theme. Finally, we have the epic tail of the track. It all comes together very dramatically. The track is also self-referential - the end of the track is a dramatized score of the first few notes (plus drums).
This is the Stark Trek Into Darkness (man this movie needs a semi-colon) theme. The theme is very similar, but it's a lot more frantic. It captures the frantic feeling of the story (let's forget how it's executed). He also takes the theme into a bit of a darker place. The track is a lot more combative as well, especially in the latter portion (versus the original theme, which was much more epic). It also ends in the original Stark Trek theme, which then flows into the new theme, the idea being that the whole experience so far was a crucible to get to what the Enterprise should have been before the theme melds back into the new one.
A theme that's more a leitmotif is something that you'd find what Zimmer does (take e.g. Dark Knight Rises or Man of Steel), and what John Williams did in the original Superman. It's a theme for the character rather than for the story/plot.
The original Superman theme has the exact same element to it, except it's a bit of period piece at this point. Still, it's a leitmotif. It's even used as a leitmotif in the movie.
Ha! I have to say I never saw E3 video. I'm not surprised.
I will say I vehemently disagree with the choice not to feature the Inquisitor at two particular points of that track, because there's a particular part of the track that I think is the leitmotif for the Inquisitor, but I guess that's a YMMV on how to edit the trailer.
Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. For DAO, I always found it important that an identity was established they could build on later, and as for describing the story incorrectly, it worked well enough for me that I didn't notice any inconsistency. Ferelden may not be a paradise, but the difference to the blighted lands is still drastic enough to make it work.
As for establishing identity, you can recognize how DAI's track is doing this wrongly as it becomes recognizeable as something else - namely, as you mention, it invokes landscape shots - and particularly those of the western genre.
I would also like to say that the best tracks do both: they serve to illustrate the story *and* they have recognizeable leitmotifs. IMO that's what made the original Star Wars track so memorable. Meanwhile I don't agree that DAI's track establishes a leitmotif for the Inquisitor, because it's not distinctive enough to do that. Maybe the impression is different when starting up the game, but that's how it looks from here.
It's a matter of personal taste, so... I prefer epic and inspiring music (eg.: TSFH, ME2 OST). What I've heard so far from Morris is closer to my preferences. DAO and especially DA2 music was forgettable to me (except Aubrey Ashburn singing Leliana's song). So I'm glad for this change.
As for establishing DA musical identity, I don't know. DAO and DA2 were so different from each other (art style, epic adventures against personal journey etc.). Musical continuity wouldn't make much sense here.
DAI main theme gives me a vibe of a more bombastic NWN theme. Which given DA's roots and BioWare's history, seems fitting. I wouldn't say it lacks identity- I certainly still recognize the NWN theme strongly today.
DAO main theme had a pretty strong identity too, but it was one of the few tracks on the DAO soundtrack to have any feeling to it. Trevor Morris' showing gives me hope of a more consistent quality.
I think there were only one or two songs from the first two games that I even liked and remembered so the change doesn't bother me. I will have my own music on when playing the game anyway.
Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. For DAO, I always found it important that an identity was established they could build on later, and as for describing the story incorrectly, it worked well enough for me that I didn't notice any inconsistency. Ferelden may not be a paradise, but the difference to the blighted lands is still drastic enough to make it work.
As for establishing identity, you can recognize how DAI's track is doing this wrongly as it becomes recognizeable as something else - namely, as you mention, it invokes landscape shots - and particularly those of the western genre.
I would also like to say that the best tracks do both: they serve to illustrate the story *and* they have recognizeable leitmotifs. IMO that's what made the original Star Wars track so memorable. Meanwhile I don't agree that DAI's track establishes a leitmotif for the Inquisitor, because it's not distinctive enough to do that. Maybe the impression is different when starting up the game, but that's how it looks from here.
I'm going to have to disagree agree with you on the leitmotif + story. A good leitmotif has to be able to tell the character's story. The only way that this works as a theme for the story is when the single character basically overshadows the story. This is why, for example, the Superman original theme is so iconic - because the story is Superman.
Getting back to DA, DA:O's theme doesn't work, though, for any game but DA:O. The harmony of the track only makes sense in terms of the darskpawn - they're the discord. I can see the argument for keeping part of the track - the vocal opening - but the rest wouldn't make sense thematically. This is why the
The DA2 theme, for example, doesn't work because of what Inon Zur did in DA:O. He takes out the discord from the track, because DA2 doesn't have that same kind of discord, he throws in the riff he uses for the templars/mages/qunari to get the same effect, but the music he used to represent the peace before the chaos and the heroic riff he uses for the GWs in DA:O doesn't work for DA2. But it's not Inon's fault - DA2 doesn't have a coherent theme.
I think DA:I's track does set the theme for the game - the rise of a hero, and the journey that the hero will have. It just also backgrounds the hero to the world, to the adventure. It's just not distinctive, but that's because I think the aim is for it not to be, because DA:I will very much be a hero's journey game. I think you in particular will be disappointed with that aspect o it.
I think DA:I's track does set the theme for the game - the rise of a hero, and the journey that the hero will have. It just also backgrounds the hero to the world, to the adventure. It's just not distinctive, but that's because I think the aim is for it not to be, because DA:I will very much be a hero's journey game. I think you in particular will be disappointed with that aspect o it.
Yeah, well, because the last time they attempted that was such a resounding success. /sarcasm. Actually, I don't have a problem with the concept itself. It's just that writers always connect religious themes to it. I can't express how fed up I am with this. If that's what you're referring to, yes, I expect things to be problematic. If not, what did you mean?
Yeah, well, because the last time they attempted that was such a resounding success. /sarcasm. Actually, I don't have a problem with the concept itself. It's just that writers always connect religious themes to it. I can't express how fed up I am with this. If that's what you're referring to, yes, I expect things to be problematic. If not, what did you mean?
I wasn't thinking about Space Jesus. I just meant that from what I recall of your posts, you prefer stories that aren't as punishing towards the non-Superman, boyscout choice (e.g. the paragon bias in ME).
I actually like the few new pieces from DA:I. It fits the open-world perfectly, reminds me a lot with Skyrim actually where my character just wonder at night to hear the ambiance music. Its the subtle ambiance music that helps a lot on immersing in such a beautifully presented world.
Inon Zur's pieces from DA:O and DA2 didn't help me much in the immersion of the high fantasy world. The main theme from DA:O's quite OK, and Leliana's singing Uthenara is nice but it seems too... modern for me since she's actually singing it in the camp so there won't be all that much musical instrument that accompany. I actually like Skyrim type tavern songs which is only accompanied by one accoustric instrument (that the bard's playing at). Apparently on Skyhold's tavern there are similar stuff. It seems so great already!
Anyway, actually it's DA:I's themes that presented on the trailers that makes me decided that I had just to play the game. Like I start play Skyrime because of its music
I can't say which I'd prefer until I've had a chance to play the game. For me, a video game soundtrack's purpose is, ultimately, to support the game. It's like the music equivalent of a bridesmaid: if it's drawing attention toward itself and away from the game, it's not doing its job.
A soundtrack that's memorable and awesome to listen to on its own isn't necessarily good for a game. For example, Myst had some very memorable tracks, but the music was jarring and in-your-face while playing the game. Not a dig at Cyan... videogame soundtracks were in infancy at that point.
Conversely, some (in my opinion) great game soundtracks are bland when taken out of the game. Zur's work is an example, as is the soundtrack for the second Myst game, Riven. I can't remember what they sound like, and that's kind of a good thing. In-game, I'm less aware that music is playing, so they subtly affect my emotions without creating the "well, here comes a sad music cue, better be sad" or "here come the trumpets, this place is obviously supposed to be grand" effect.
So though I prefer the Morris music out of context, I'd really need to experience it throughout gameplay to properly compare it. Based on how subtle his work is in Vikings, I'm optimistic.
I wasn't thinking about Space Jesus. I just meant that from what I recall of your posts, you prefer stories that aren't as punishing towards the non-Superman, boyscout choice (e.g. the paragon bias in ME).
Ah, that. Yes, that's true. It's more a problem of believable worldbuilding though. If pragmatic decisions didn't work, nobody would make them, and I hate how stories build up a mindset that's plainly delusional with their bias. Having said that, I'm not too worried about DAI in that regard. DAO and DA2 were reasonably OK, and I think I can hope for a more balanced presentation than in ME as long as I work towards good ends. I don't want to be the evil bastard, but I do want the story to acknowledge that pragmatism sometimes works.
Inon Zur's pieces from DA:O and DA2 didn't help me much in the immersion of the high fantasy world. The main theme from DA:O's quite OK, and Leliana's singing Uthenara is nice but it seems too... modern for me since she's actually singing it in the camp so there won't be all that much musical instrument that accompany. I actually like Skyrim type tavern songs which is only accompanied by one accoustric instrument (that the bard's playing at). Apparently on Skyhold's tavern there are similar stuff. It seems so great already!
That's why I don't like it. I could never put my finger on why I didn't like the song. It just clashes with the ambiance of the camp. We don't see Liliana ever playing an instrument, or having one, or even mentioning one, and it's missing the intimacy of someone just singly softly, vocals only, no music, that I think that scene needed.
Retour en haut
