33 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

I've had the pleasure of joining the Dragon Age Keep closed Beta, so I've been thinking back to Origins a lot lately. As we all know, in Leliana shows up in Dragon Age 2 even if you kill her in Origins. She is called "the left hand of the Divine" and is on a higher mission along with Cassandra Pentaghast. I just had a thought on her and wanted to bounce it off the community.

 

Was Leliana a special agent of the Divine even back in Origins and the ditzy personality and claims of being called were only a facade? We do have the Guardian from the Sacred Ashes quest saying she was making it up.

 

I don't actually think this is the case, but I'm wondering what others think.

[Hydwn]

Good question.  Wondered that too.

 

We do know she knew the future Divine before she took office.  Revered Mother Dorothea meets her and becomes friends with her in Leliana's Song - that takes place somewhere between 9:28 and 9:30, I'm guessing.  Origins takes place in 9:30 to 9:31, and DA2 ends in 9:40.  In 9:34 Dorothea becomes Divine Justinia V, the current Divine.  She was considered an outsider, but the former Divine was seriously senile and easily influenced.  

 

The question was, who was appointing seekers around 9:30...?  The former Divine wasn't in her right mind, so someone had to be making that decision for her (the Divine is supposed to appoint those personally).  We have no idea how much influence Dorothea/Justinia had in 9:30, but considering her fast rise to power, it must have been some.

 

All circumstantial evidence, except for one thing: when you meet Leliana, her default gear includes a pendant called The Seeker's Circle

[Natureguy85]

Ah, good catch on the pendant. It may be that Leliana went back to Orlais to report on the blight and was put in her position once Justinia becomes Divine. Leliana doesn't seem fake and she seems legitimately annoyed when the Guardian accuses her of making up her vision. There is no way she could have known she would meet you at that bar, so if she were already a Seeker or the Left Hand, or whatever, then I'd think she made her story up on the spot once she heard who you were, thinking it was something worth knowing about and taking part in.

[Patchwork]

There's an argument to be made for Leliana being shady. She's a bard and I think the Guardian was on to something when he accused her of making up stories to feel special (was it the Guardian? It's been a while since I played DAO). She shares bardic tactics with the same enjoyment as Zevran does his assassination stories. Marjolaine even warns the pc about her untrustworthiness.

 

IMO Leliana is mostly what she seems to be in DAO someone who is at a crossroads in their life. She doesn't want to go back to helping one noble one up another but she wants more than what being a lay sister offers. A reverend mother in a small village like Lothering doesn't become the Divine without some political manoeuvring and I think Leliana helped to get her there.  

[Icy Magebane]

I never saw it that way, but they made a lot of changes to her backstory in "Leliana's Song," so either she lied to the Warden's face in DA:O or something got retconned (although technically, the lie could also have been a retcon, and probably was).  Considering how common retcons are in fictional series, the most obvious answer seems to be that Leliana started out as a normal person, but later on the writers made changes to her history to make her more than that... IMO if she was lying about her visions (meaning, the entire story was fabricated as an excuse to get near the Warden), the Guardian would have said that, not played along.  It would have had no reason to protect her secret...

 

As far as the "Seeker's Circle" goes, the idea of Seekers didn't appear until DA2 if I remember correctly, so I wouldn't call that proof of anything... Leliana's entire questline was about finding her true self, so the name for this amulet is appropriate without trying to connect it to her role in DA2.

[Natureguy85]

I never saw it that way, but they made a lot of changes to her backstory in "Leliana's Song," so either she lied to the Warden's face in DA:O or something got retconned (although technically, the lie could also have been a retcon, and probably was).  Considering how common retcons are in fictional series, the most obvious answer seems to be that Leliana started out as a normal person, but later on the writers made changes to her history to make her more than that... IMO if she was lying about her visions (meaning, the entire story was fabricated as an excuse to get near the Warden), the Guardian would have said that, not played along.  It would have had no reason to protect her secret...

 

As far as the "Seeker's Circle" goes, the idea of Seekers didn't appear until DA2 if I remember correctly, so I wouldn't call that proof of anything... Leliana's entire questline was about finding her true self, so the name for this amulet is appropriate without trying to connect it to her role in DA2.

 

Good point on the amulet. The Guardian did call her out on faking her vision story, but maybe you mean specifically calling out her other motives. What changes did they make? I don't remember enough from her backstory in Origins itself to recall any retcons. I remember her saying she was a bard and saw the end of Leliana's song as when she went to the chantry after seeing  the peace Silas finds there.

[thats1evildude]

I've heard that theory, but I think it's extremely unlikely. It just doesn't make sense.

 

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the theory is true. What was Leliana doing in Lothering, then? Aside from being the current residence of the Hawke family, Lothering is a fairly insignificant village in the middle of nowhere.

 

How would the Divine know two Grey Wardens would eventually pass through Lothering on their way to gather allies after a disastrous defeat at Ostagar? If the Divine did somehow know that Ostagar would be a massacre, then why didn't she try to prevent the disaster from occuring? And why wouldn't the Divine ally with Loghain instead? He was the one with the army, after all.

 

Also, if she were acting as the Divine's agent, you would think that the Guardian would have brought that up. He doesn't. He also doesn't imply that the vision was fake; only that she reveled in the negative attention.

[Icy Magebane]

Good point on the amulet. The Guardian did call her out on faking her vision story, but maybe you mean specifically calling out her other motives. What changes did they make? I don't remember enough from her backstory in Origins itself to recall any retcons. I remember her saying she was a bard and saw the end of Leliana's song as when she went to the chantry after seeing  the peace Silas finds there.

I remember the events of Leliana's Song being a lot different from the story that she told the Warden... there was no mention of Sketch and that other fellow she worked with, Marjolaine betrayed her during the mission (not afterward), and she was captured in Denerim (not Orlais), among other changes... basically, the stories were so dissimilar that either Leliana flat out lied to the Warden in DA:O or she was telling the truth but due to the story changes, that original admission of her past was retconned into a lie... The second possibility raises the question of why Leliana would have admitted anything about her past if she intended to lie about the details, which is another reason that I believe it was a retcon and nothing more...

 

And yes, I think that if the Guardian knew she was lying about everything, he would not have focused on her vision, since that would have been only scratching the surface of her deception... if Leliana was some kind of double agent, I think the Guardian would have brought that up that instead.

[Todrazok]

Where there is certainly an argument to be made, I'd say no. as thats1evildude is mentioning im not sure what the Divine would be expecting Leliana to do in Lothering. You've got to bear in mind she spent some time there as a lay sister before the blight even started.

 

As for the pendant, I think that's more of an indication that they had some ideas already by the end of DAOs development of where they wanted to go in the future with Leliana. 

[Natureguy85]

 You've got to bear in mind she spent some time there as a lay sister before the blight even started.

 

 

Well that's what I was calling into question. Like I said, I don't think it's likely, but it was something that popped into my head.

[Nightshade715]

I remember the events of Leliana's Song being a lot different from the story that she told the Warden... there was no mention of Sketch and that other fellow she worked with, Marjolaine betrayed her during the mission (not afterward), and she was captured in Denerim (not Orlais), among other changes...

I think the reason for the whole DLC taking place in Denerim is not Leliana lying to the Warden but simply a choice made by the developers. Ferelden and Orlais have different cultures, which also includes different architecture styles and such. So, perhaps there was simply no time (maybe I mistook the dates, but they probably worked on Dragon Age 2 when Leliana's Song was released), or BioWare didn't want to create new area with different models for a relatively small DLC. That's how I see it anyway.

[Icy Magebane]

I think the reason for the whole DLC taking place in Denerim is not Leliana lying to the Warden but simply a choice made by the developers. Ferelden and Orlais have different cultures, which also includes different architecture styles and such. So, perhaps there was simply no time (maybe I mistook the dates, but they probably worked on Dragon Age 2 when Leliana's Song was released), or BioWare didn't want to create new area with different models for a relatively small DLC. That's how I see it anyway.

Perhaps that was a factor, but almost everything she told the Warden was either a lie or a half-truth... the only similarities between her DA:O story and Leliana's song were that she knew a woman named Marjolaine, Marjolaine betrayed her in some way, and Leliana spent time in prison as a result.  I'd have been willing to overlook the change in setting if that was the only difference, but they creators of that DLC took one too many liberties with the original tale for my liking...

[Krypplingz]

I think Leliana's song is the true story (for the most part). 

In the story she tell the warden she hunted down some faceless man and found out that Marjoline was selling the Orlesians secrets to other nations, naming Antiva and Nevarra, two distant countries. Leliana reveals her bardic past, but purposefully distances herself from Ferelden (where she is now) so she becomes a dangerous agent, but from a foreign country, doing things which don't concern Ferelden.

This is much safer for her, than revealing that she nearly helped kickstart a war between Orlais and Ferelden and if things had gone differently, there would be even more mess for the Warden to deal with. 

 

Relevant Ramblings:

Spoiler

After the encounter with Marjoline, Leliana wants a break. So she hides, finding a small village, far away and seeks sanction from the Chantry like the Sister and Justina suggested. It's nice and cozy, but dreadfully boring. She desires attention, purpose.

(In Orlais you were someone. In Lothering, you feared you would lose yourself, become a drab sister and disappear.)

 

Meanwhile, the darkspawn start appearing. These nightmarish horrors kill the king at Ostagar and start their journey to destroy the world. 

This must be demoralizing for the common man and like many others, Leliana has a nightmare. So she goes outside to calm herself down and look! The gnarly rosebush suddenly has a rose on it! (I think Sandal was mucking around with his enchanting finger. )

Being a creative person who craves attention, she connects the dots and decides that this is a sign to her from the Maker. She tells her chantry brethren about this and they are not impressed, but what do they know?

(When your brothers and sisters of the cloister critizized you for what you professed, you were hurt, but you also reveled in it.)

So Leliana packs her bags and prepares to leave to make a difference. She goes to the inn, grabs a drink for the road and then the encounter with the warden happens. 

 

She either makes it on her own or joins the Warden. Making peace with her past, either with reinforced belief in her goodness or content with her bloodlust, she seeks out Justina again. In doing so Leliana gets to serve the chantry, as a very important person who does very important things. She's like a flower in an egg.

 

Long story short: I don't believe she was an agent when she met the Warden, but she knew the Divine. She found comfort in the Chantry, but craved attention: So she found the Special Secret Chantry Agent position and applied for it. 

[Hydwn]

Thinking about this today, I guess it's a question of what's meant by "agent of the divine."  In a sense, she's an agent of Dorothea, who's the future Divine, in Leliana's Song, which takes place before Origins.  She likely wasn't known as Dorothea's "left hand" then, but I doubt "left hand of the divine" is the sort of title that goes on resumes and business cards.  It's not an official title.

 

And it's not like she or anyone else could have been the agent of the previous Divine, Beatrix.  Beatrix was beyond knowing or caring what went on in the world by the time Leliana entered into the picture.  She herself was basically just a hand holding a rubber stamp while other people made church policy from the shadows.

 

Was Leliana a Seeker then?  For that matter, is she a Seeker now?  We've seen her wearing the uniform in 9:40 Dragon, but we've never seen her use the Seeker talents.  When she dealt with mages in the Faith sidequest in 9:37 Dragon, she preferred double daggers to disrupting their spells.

 

So we know she's always been working for Dorothea, at least informally, but when did "working for Dorothea" become "working for the Chantry"...?  That is, when did Dorothea replace Beatrix as the most powerful person there?  Was she always the hand moving the rubber stamp?  Or did she have to shove someone else out of the way to get there?

 

One interesting detail: you can play Mark of the Assassin at any time starting from Act I, and Leliana is always at the party.  She's the person Cassandra is referring to when she says "We had someone there, but they lacked your Access."     They put a lot of thought into reactivity in MotA, changing dialogue depending on the act you go there.  Well, if you go in 9:31, Leliana would basically have had to have come the same year the Archdemon was killed, which would have meant she was acting on behalf of the Seekers three years before Dorothea officially took power 0_o

 

That puts a fascinating spin on Dorothea's rise, and who was really running the Chantry while Beatrix was losing her mind.

 

As for Leliana's honesty and sincerity, if we take Leliana's Song as canon, then there's already things she left out - and even in the main story of DAO, she comes to you as an innocent sister, and then admits she's a trained assassin who's killed people.  But we don't have to see her as insincere in her beliefs.  Like a Hawke who practises blood magic toward a good end, or a Warden who lets Prince Bhelen have the anvil because the Archdemon winning is worse, both Leliana and Dorothea seem to have true faith but believe that the end of that faith justify certain brutal means.  They are both ex-bards.

 

And it's not like her patron is any stranger to unorthodox religious beliefs.  She's the first pro-mage Divine, and was willing to risk war with her own Templars to help mages or moral principle.  I imagine someone like that would be quite sympathetic to Leliana and her vision.

[Han Shot First]

 

I think Leliana's song is the true story (for the most part). 

 

 

 

The problem with Leliana's backstory are that there are two competing versions of it. There is the version she told the Warden in DA:O, and then there is the slightly different version that gets told in Leliana's Song. Of the two I think the version told to the Warden is the more truthful. What seals it for me is that the events of the Leliana's Song DLC are bookended by Leliana narrating, as if she's in Bard mode and telling the story to an audience. She seems to be spinning the story for dramatic effect, rather than spilling her guts out to a close friend or lover. 

 

I think where the two versions differ, the one told to the Warden is the more accurate, but otherwise the events of Leliana's Song are true. Sketch, Tug, and Silas were probably real companions for example, but Tug probably died in Orlais rather than Ferelden.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I highly doubt it, for many of the reasons stated above.

 

Not to mention, if she was some spy sent by the Divine, you're kind of a horrible spy if you tell the person you're spying on that they're a horrible person and storm off if  you don't like the way they do things...

 

I think she was genuine in her repentance from her former lifestyle. There's no doubt more than meets the eye for her, but the same can be said of most people.

[gottaloveme]

As for the story she gives the warden about her betrayal by Marjolaine a half truth often serves the purpose more than an outright lie. Her behaviour seems like that of a sleeper agent. If you don't take her with you to Lothering's chantry you can ask everyone about her and they will give their opinions on her. Even the warden will ask her if she is spying on them.

 

Also - Alistair was almost a templar. The Grand Cleric didn't want the son of the king to just disappear and maybe neither did Orlais. Headcanon, but with all the books, anime, graphic novels and retconning going on why not?

[Sifr]

I don't think so, because Dorothea only became Divine four years after the events of Origins.

 

It makes far more sense to me that after becoming Divine, Dorothea was looking for someone skilled and whom she trusted enough to become her top Agent, Leliana fit the bill. Her past as a bard, owing Dorothea for saving her life, as well as being one of the heroes who saved Thedas from the Fifth Blight probably made Leliana more than qualified for the job.

 

But as for the theory that she was a sleeper, I doubt that's the case? It'd require a ton of planning on Dorothea's part to even ensure she was the top candidate for the next Divine, let alone have Leliana put in Lothering for some higher purpose and as part of some masterplan? That would require foreknowledge of the Blight, Loghain's retreat and that the people who'd change the future of the world would pass through that town in time for her to join their ranks?

 

Unless Dorothea is secretly a Seer, I can't see how any of those things could have been anticipated?

[Natureguy85]

I've heard that theory, but I think it's extremely unlikely. It just doesn't make sense.

 

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the theory is true. What was Leliana doing in Lothering, then? Aside from being the current residence of the Hawke family, Lothering is a fairly insignificant village in the middle of nowhere.

 

How would the Divine know two Grey Wardens would eventually pass through Lothering on their way to gather allies after a disastrous defeat at Ostagar? If the Divine did somehow know that Ostagar would be a massacre, then why didn't she try to prevent the disaster from occuring? And why wouldn't the Divine ally with Loghain instead? He was the one with the army, after all.

 

Also, if she were acting as the Divine's agent, you would think that the Guardian would have brought that up. He doesn't. He also doesn't imply that the vision was fake; only that she reveled in the negative attention.

 

Yeah, I mentioned the first part and how unlikely that is. As for the Guardian, he does indeed imply that it was fake, though maybe that's just him purposely picking at a sore subject as he does when he asks Wynn if she wonders is she is just a shill for the Chantry. He asks why Leliana claims the Maker speaks to her "when all know the Maker has left. He spoke only of Andraste." After the bit about the attention, Leliana says "You're saying I made it up for... for the attention? I did not."

[Han Shot First]

Yeah, I mentioned the first part and how unlikely that is. As for the Guardian, he does indeed imply that it was fake, though maybe that's just him purposely picking at a sore subject as he does when he asks Wynn if she wonders is she is just a shill for the Chantry. He asks why Leliana claims the Maker speaks to her "when all know the Maker has left. He spoke only of Andraste." After the bit about the attention, Leliana says "You're saying I made it up for... for the attention? I did not."

 

I never noticed before that Leliana specifies 'for the attention.' So when she says "I did not, " is she denying that she made it up, or only that she made it up for the attention?

[Natureguy85]

I never noticed before that Leliana specifies 'for the attention.' So when she says "I did not, " is she denying that she made it up, or only that she made it up for the attention?

 

I assume it's for the whole line and she just stammers either because she's incredulous or she was caught. But maybe you're onto something.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

If she was lying all along and was actually a Chantry agent, one would think that's what the Guardian would bring up, not her vision. That's most likely why Morrigan shot him down - how much you want to bet his question would have been related to her true intentions? 

[GenericEnemy]

There are people in Lothering who testify to the fact that Leliana has been in Lothering for years. I doubt the Divine (who, wasn't even Dorothea at the time...) just sent her to sit around in some backwater village for all those years because she somehow guessed that a Blight would happen and two Grey Wardens would just happen to pass through town. 

 

The Seeker's Circle was probably just something Dorothea gave her. She was her friend. 

[Natureguy85]

There are people in Lothering who testify to the fact that Leliana has been in Lothering for years. I doubt the Divine (who, wasn't even Dorothea at the time...) just sent her to sit around in some backwater village for all those years because she somehow guessed that a Blight would happen and two Grey Wardens would just happen to pass through town. 

 

The Seeker's Circle was probably just something Dorothea gave her. She was her friend. 

 

Yeah, if she was on some special mission, it is harder to belive it would be that long. As far as knowing about the Warden's, however, that's why I brought up the possibility that Leliana decided on her own to join the Warden because of the importance of the quest.