Call them the **** out? When you hear someone act this way, or say these things, tell them they don't belong. Refuse to talk to them. Kick them off the server.
There are lots of things you can do.
Yes but those things are obvious and won't stop these kind of people.
Could you possibly find 100 examples of gay men in video games? I think that would be exceedingly difficult.
And that's the point: the fact that she can find so many examples to illustrate her points means that maybe she has a solid argument. You might disagree with that argument, you might have many examples that illustrate the opposite, but 100 examples is sure a lot.
Possibly, but I wouldn't bet a fortune on that. Regardless, it was just meant as an example of how confirmation bias does function, by ignoring counter-examples.
Let's say there are 100 examples of gay men in gaming, but 20,000 examples of straight men. By sheer quantity, it doesn't matter that I've identified x number of gay men, but ignored the opposite quantity, which is twenty times that. In a similar vein, by completely ignoring positive portrayals of women in gaming, we're simply left with some ambiguous number that has no context to it. I think this becomes more frustrating if/when Anita ignores positive portrayals of women which occur in the exact same game.
Personally? I'm less concerned about the number of negative portrayals of one-note female characters and more concerned about the lack of positive portrayals in the form of main/supporting characters. This is because in any story, by sheer quantity, you're more likely to run into far more one-dimensional characters whom you will interact with than you will main characters, another reason why some discussion on positive female characters becomes important.
When society's perception can be justified, yes. Neither of those cases qualify. You kinda glossed over the part where I said the beliefs are actually held in the 'gamer' community and made excuses for and allowed to fester. That's not just society's perception.
Who determines whether the perception is justifiable or not? MOST gamers I know are rationale decent people, yet apparently there are people who think I should feel ashamed of the label because the perception does exist out there.
I'll say it again. Gamer = someone who plays games. What part of that should I be ashamed about?
That's simplifying it. My 90 year old grandfather doesn't play games. Sure, it's incumbent on him not to tolerate death threats against women, but he's not about to take a stand on an issue he doesn't even know exists. If I mentioned gamergate he'd probably think I got confused about watergate.
But gamers know it exists. That's the difference.
I half agree but I still stick by my main point.
These are issues that need to be stamped out regardless of where they come up. I agree in the same sense that (just an example) if I'm in a work place and someone starts saying sexist or racist things, it is more my responsibility to deal with that then someone who doesn't work there, but it's still an issue that exists largely outside the workplace too. It is everyones responsibility to deal with it regardless of where the issue comes up, your grandfather for example probably deals with the same thing in his own life in ways you don't realize is happening either.
@schall_und_rauchOkay,
so she used Dragon Age completely in context. She prefaced the footage by saying (paraphrasing) "the brutal treatment of women is often used as a sort of one-note character development for bad-guys". You then see the Dragon Age footage, where a character, instantly recognized as a "badguy", is treating female character poorly... because he's a badguy. One informs the other, and it is perfectly in-line with the trope she is discussing.
Not only do I think her use of the Dragon Age footage was completely fair to the game, but, in my brief analysis of her video, I never heard her mention Dragon Age by name, nor did I see it displayed on any of the "offender walls". As I eluded to earlier, she was using Dragon Age more to illustrate just how widespread and habitual these issues are. She was not unfairly criticizing the game.
Why are these things only sexist when applied to women though? Shianni (female) getting raped by a villain in DA:O=sexist. Alain(male) getting raped by a villain in DA2=not sexist? Why is it sexist when a man and woman team up to weaken another woman enough to get a mind control device off her so she can be saved (Resident Evil 5, one of her examples) but not when you beat ub Bann Teagan to snap him out of his mind control. This is a common thing in video games(http://tvtropes.org/...heCurseOutOfHim) why is it only sexist when applied to women. Something being equal for both genders=sexist...?
Guest_Puddi III_*
I'll say it again. Gamer = someone who plays games. What part of that should I be ashamed about?
The part where you used a children's dictionary definition of the label that makes it pointless to even bother defending to begin with, and continue trying to ignore the other unfortunate connotations that exist in reality.
Yes but those things are obvious and won't stop these kind of people.
It's apparently not that obvious since so few people do it. As for what effect it has, thousands of people calling someone a disgusting piece of **** for what they say, refusing to play or speak with them, and otherwise isolating them whenever that person says something is pretty effective.
I half agree but I still stick by my main point.
These are issues that need to be stamped out regardless of where they come up. I agree in the same sense that (just an example) if I'm in a work place and someone starts saying sexist or racist things, it is more my responsibility to deal with that then someone who doesn't work there, but it's still an issue that exists largely outside the workplace too. It is everyones responsibility to deal with it regardless of where the issue comes up, your grandfather for example probably deals with the same thing in his own life in ways you don't realize is happening either.
There's absolutely no difference in terms of responsibility if some racist loon says something in front of you at work based on whether the racist loon works there. The only difference is the action. If they work there, you have to take it to HR (or equivalent). If they don't, call security, because some misogynistic and racist loon just broke into your place of work.
Well only idiots are painting all gamers with same brush, so why should I care that some people feel negatively towards that term. As for a small number of gamers doing and saying messed up ****, that happens in all walks of life. I'm sorry but I don't care any more about that than the many other tragedies that happen every day. I feel bad for that victims involved but that's about it, why should I feel some sort of guilt by association?
Who determines whether the perception is justifiable or not? MOST gamers I know are rationale decent people, yet apparently there are people who think I should feel ashamed of the label because the perception does exist out there.
I'll say it again. Gamer = someone who plays games. What part of that should I be ashamed about?
German = someone born in germany what part of that should make a german feel ashamed in 1946? Oh i don't know maybe the whole thing about death camps.
Yes gamer = someone who plays games. just like german = Someone born in germany. Not all Germans kill people in death camps not all germans agreed with it but it is not unreasonable for the nation to feel a collective sense of shame for the minority of germans that committed ethnic cleansing and genocide. Germany went through a collective sense of shame and grieving for what they did as a nation.
Gamers should also have a collective sense of shame that within our ranks people can do not only deplorable things but can be celebrated for doing said things. That people can make murderous threats and the collective result is the vast majority go "Meh. It happens whats the big deal?" Oh i don't know the big deal is it shouldn't be acceptable to make threats like those just because you disagree with a position. This behaviour isn't confined to targetting feminists, there is a case of a player on EvE online who publically stated he want to harrass another player and called other players "to arms" for the purpose of harassing a player so badly that they would kill themselves. That was his stated goal to make someones life in a game so miserable the killed themselves. (The person did not kill themselves to be clear). This type of vile behaviour is not an issolated case, it might be a minority but we the majority allow it the exist.
Trivializing rape doesn't mean condoning rape. It literally means "make (something) seem less important, significant, or complex than it really is", which is an issue with the CE origin. We don't focus on how the assault affects Shianni. In fact, we don't see any of its brutality, we don't see her dealing with the fallout and the game don't even focus on her experience beyond the impact that it has on the protagonist. It treats Shianni's assault the way it would treat her having been kicknapped and punched, and that trivializes rape, because it just reduces it to a footnote in the game.
How many characters, both male and female, are murdered throughout the series? Murder, if not a worse crime than rape, is at least as bad a crime. And unlike rape, it is a crime that can be committed by the protagonist. The games also don't generally focus on the experience of those murders beyond the impact it has on the protagonist. We don't see the grieving wife/husband or the orphaned children or the potentially dire financial consequences for a family where a bread winner has been killed, and there is no public safety net. Does that mean that the game trivializes murder as well?
That's the problem I have with rape being singled out as an act that can only be portrayed if the consequences on the victim is explored in depth. Rape isn't the only violent act depicted in video games. Either rape is being singled out for special treatment in it's portrayal in fiction (including games), or we're on a slippery slope where all portrayals of violence must be removed from games unless there is an in depth portrayal of victim impact.
Also, Anita singles out female rape. Is the portrayal of the rape of a female character worthy of more special treatment than the portrayal of the rape of a male character? While the latter is admittedly a lot more rare in video games, I'd argue it's portrayal has been more problematic. Take Grand Theft Auto V as an example. Trevor's sexual assault of a male character is played for laughs. Its written with the intent that the audience will be laughing at the victim. Is there any video game that has ever portrayed the rape of a female character that way?
Guest_Cthulhu42_*
German = someone born in germany what part of that should make a german feel ashamed in 1946? Oh i don't know maybe the whole thing about death camps.
It took 16 pages, but we finally got a Holocaust comparison! Godwin's Law is proven again! *throws confetti*
Anyway, I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet. Usually BioMod2 jumps on these kind of topics before they get to the second page.
Take Grand Theft Auto V as an example. Trevor's sexual assault of a male character is played for laughs. Its written with the intent that the audience will be laughing at the victim. Is there any video game that has ever portrayed the rape of a female character that way?
I'm surprised so few people took the "kill Trevor" ending in that game, tbh. He was one of the most obnoxious characters in a game I've ever seen, and murdering him was probably the highlight of the story for me.
The part where you used a children's dictionary definition of the label that makes it pointless to even bother defending to begin with, and continue trying to ignore the other unfortunate connotations that exist in reality.
I'll repeat myself: MOST gamers I know are normal rationale people who don't believe attacking a person with threats is acceptable.
Infact MOST people I know IRL don't even look at gaming as being negative as whole.
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
It took 16 pages, but we finally got a Holocaust comparison! Godwin's Law is proven again! *throws confetti*
Anyway, I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet. Usually BioMod2 jumps on these kind of topics before they get to the second page.
It needs to be talked about and examined thoroughly though. Brushing it under a rug and dismissing it or silencing people with dissenting arguments does the issue a disservice. Let's be adults about this you digg?
do you expect every citizen of said countries to feel a sense of collective guilt for these crimes?
Yes. I don't know how people can get out of bed in the morning.
Guest_Puddi III_*
I'll repeat myself: MOST gamers I know are normal rationale people who don't believe attacking a person with threats is acceptable.
Infact MOST people I know IRL don't even look at gaming as being negative as whole.
The 'gamer culture' I understand us to be discussing specifically is the kind who is aware of 'gamergate', not your average gamer. The online gamers with nothing better to do than b*tch on forums all day long, and evidently, look up people's personal information to send them rape and death threats.
And I'm not throwing around this 'shame' to mean that as a gamer you should personally feel ashamed for supporting rape and death threats because the generalization exists. That's not how it works. If I'm ashamed as a gamer it's because I know there are enough people in this 'community' who do those things for the generalization to exist, and evidently not enough people speaking out against them to stamp it out. I know full well I don't personally support those things and any accusations that I do would be met with simple incredulity, not defensiveness. But it's still shameful that I'm technically a part of this.
How many characters, both male and female, are murdered throughout the series? Murder, if not a worse crime than rape, is at least as bad a crime. And unlike rape, it is a crime that can be committed by the protagonist. The games also don't generally focus on the experience of those murders beyond the impact it has on the protagonist. We don't see the grieving wife/husband or the orphaned children or the potentially dire financial consequences for a family where a bread winner has been killed, and there is no public safety net. Does that mean that the game trivializes murder as well?
Is this is a serious question? Games totally trivialize murder and violence. But that's not a problem in the same way that rape is a problem, because murder and rape are different social issues that come up in a different social context.
As for why a feminist wouldn't critique a game for trivializing violence, it's that violence generally (vs. violence that esp. targets women) isn't really an issue for the movement/idea/theory, etc.
That's the problem I have with rape being singled out as an act that can only be portrayed if the consequences on the victim is explored in depth. Rape isn't the only violent act depicted in video games. Either rape is being singled out for special treatment in it's portrayal in fiction (including games), or we're on a slippery slope where all portrayals of violence must be removed from games unless there is an in depth portrayal of victim impact.
That doesn't follow. You're starting from the premise that rape and murder are somehow equivalent. They're not. We're not on a slippery slope.
Also, Anita singles out female rape. Is the portrayal of the rape of a female character worthy of more special treatment than the portrayal of the rape of a male character? While the latter is admittedly a lot more rare in video games, I'd argue it's portrayal has been more problematic. Take Grand Theft Auto V as an example. Trevor's sexual assault of a male character is played for laughs. Its written with the intent that the audience will be laughing at the victim. Is there any video game that has ever portrayed the rape of a female character that way?
Dragon Age doesn't have male rape, but you're right. Like I said in my first post in this thread, her critique isn't an especially good one. The issue of M/M rape is as much an issue of sexism as M/F rape is an issue of sexism. The attitudes toward it flow from the same core beliefs about gender, gender roles, etc. There are different attitudes towards sexual assault of each gender because each gender is held to different standards, but the core problem is the same.
Guest_Tevaite_*
Ahh Japan, the nation that doesn't give a toss about political correctness, at least in their video games.
I wish more European and North American companies adopted the same mindset.
It certainly doesn't. They still have issues with child pornography.
I don't think it's about guilt at all. Guilt is pointless, and doesn't solve anything. Should we all feel personally guilty about horrible things that our fellow gamers have done? If we have not directly participated in or encouraged them in their actions, then no.
It's about acknowledging there is a problem and working to solve it. It's about recognizing that something is causing this kind of toxic environment and considering whether we have contributed to it, and whether there are things we can do to reverse it.
Is it an accident that women account for a very small percentage of the industry, yet are predominantly the targets of threats and harassment? Why does this seem to happen so much in tech and gaming, compared to other communities? Could it be that when people rush to discredit every woman who claims she's being threatened, they're helping create a situation where the abusers, rather than the victims, feel validated and supported by the community? When people choose to talk about Sarkeesian's credibility as a person rather than actually discuss the topics she's discussing, they paint her--not her arguments--as a target to be taken down.
You are not responsible for every violent harasser in gaming, but you are responsible for not making him or her think they are acting with your blessing. That means not participating in the vilification of people whose opinions you disagree with. That means not agreeing with those who would paint gaming as exclusionary and elitist, or acting as a gatekeeper to those who don't pass some narrow criteria for what qualifies as a "true gamer." That means allowing for dialogue and criticism, even if you disagree with it. That means not shooting down women or minorities every time they ask to be recognized by the games they play.
Gamer culture absolutely has a responsibility for allowing frothing at the mouth lunatics a safe haven without excluding them entirely. Just like you have a responsibility to exclude racists.
+I and most gamers are not gonna feel collective guilt for these trolls or their threats. Not our problem nor our responsibility.
You are not responsible for every violent harasser in gaming, but you are responsible for not making him or her think they are acting with your blessing.
Says who? Hugbox clutchers?
It certainly doesn't. They still have issues with child pornography.
Yeah it's pretty fvcked up.
Guest_Cthulhu42_*
It needs to be talked about and examined thoroughly though. Brushing it under a rug and dismissing it or silencing people with dissenting arguments does the issue a disservice. Let's be adults about this you digg?
Relax, I'm just making a few snarky comments, not trying to stifle discussion. You guys keep making Nazi comparisons all you want.
Is this is a serious question? Games totally trivialize murder and violence. But that's not a problem in the same way that rape is a problem, because murder and rape are different social issues that come up in a different social context.
As for why a feminist wouldn't critique a game for trivializing violence, it's that violence generally (vs. violence that esp. targets women) isn't really an issue for the movement/idea/theory, etc....
...That doesn't follow. You're starting from the premise that rape and murder are somehow equivalent. They're not. We're not on a slippery slope.
Why do you think that murder and rape are not equivalent? I'm just not understanding why the portrayal of rape in fiction should be considered more taboo than the portrayal of murder. Both have severe consequences for the victim and a negative impact on the communities in which they occur, and are the worst crimes one human can commit against another.
Guest_Tevaite_*
I can certainly believe you live in the USA. That was a not-uncommon view on terrorism in the immediate aftermath of 9-11, when there were widespread fears that everyone was going to be targetted next.
Why not?
Ce sujet est fermé
Retour en haut
