Ce sujet est fermé^
For a sec I thought this post was CS, then I was like
lol...
Thinking about David Gaider's tumblr entry on femfrequency
Débuté par
schall_und_rauch
, oct. 24 2014 06:38
#176
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 05:42
Cassandra Saturn
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lol...
Retour en haut
#177
Guest_Corvus I_*
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 05:49
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Also, I recommend the book "Brain Sex." The information in it is pretty nuanced when it comes to explaining the chemistry behind sexual development in the fetal brain - how easy it is for a female fetus to develop a brain affected by a dominance of male hormones, which leads to so many of the gender and sex variations we see in our world today.
To be fair, one should read the 1 star comments as well as some of the more recent books on the subject.
#178
Guest_iatcb_*
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 06:00
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To be fair, one should read the 1 star comments as well as some of the more recent books on the subject.
It's a controversial book.
I enjoyed it because of the (hormonal) biology explained regarding fetal brain development. I'm not a nature vs. nurture type of person. I'm pretty convinced that it's a combination of both nature and nurture. I always thought the book did well to explain the "nature" part, since that seemed to be what some people are discussing here. And I found the information helpful in explaining why men and women aren't binary on a biological level. (Why they aren't binary on even a embryonic level...)
Couple that with nuances that a human child experiences during the early years of socialization - and those gender-driven over generalizations of all sexes are even more at a loss. People are varied. They contain multitudes, both socially and biologically.
The foolish thing to do would be to read Brain Sex and take it as the end-all, be-all explanation for the sexes. It's a fraction of an explanation, but it explains that fraction (fetal development and how it responds to hormonal fluctuations in utero) very well. Newer research on that topic would be great, as well. I read Brain Sex so many years ago and it always stuck with me. That's why I recommended it.
Edit: Reading over the 1 star reviews, I feel like I must have read a different book from what these folks have read. Now I'm wondering if I'm thinking of a different title. :/
Modifié par iatcb, 25 octobre 2014 - 07:56 .
#179
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 07:34
Han Shot First
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Some comments are
Some people are obviously trolling.
#180
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 07:37
Gravisanimi
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Some people are obviously trolling.
The sad part is that some of them aren't
#181
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 07:48
slimgrin
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Just checked her Twitter feed. I think Anita knows she went too far with that toxic masculinity comment and now she's scrambling to back up her claims. Good luck with that.
#182
Guest_iatcb_*
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 07:51
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Some people are obviously trolling.
In spite of that, I will take what I can get. There has been so much ....aggression... in regard to gaming culture. From all sides. It's time there was an open, fluid, and reasonable dialogue to help us reach some kind of resolution. I know that's idealism talking. I realize there will always be someone who is discontent, but hopefully there will come a point where we can see resolution in spite of said discontent.
And this is coming from someone who identifies as a feminist. I know that's an ugly word to some people, but it is not to me. I treat it as a branch of humanism I put into practice - to the best of my knowledge and experience - on a daily basis. :shrug: I'm no spokesperson or anything. Just a person.
- Vroom Vroom aime ceci
#183
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 07:52
Cassandra Saturn
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I feel like I should get on twitter and post my own thoughts on same subject in very good manner than her. I do my research because I learned from my life I go through.
I also do HOPE that her twitter is closed someday that she realizes she made mistake of causing a firestorm over her tweets.
Edit:
made my own tweet.
https://twitter.com/...049617558110210
in case someone missed this.
#184
Guest_iatcb_*
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:00
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If it's built into us all then there's no point in fighting it. If it's the product of evolution, then it's there for a reason. Is it inherently negative? no.
Men and women are different phisically and mentally. That is a fact.
And no point will we treat each other completely the same. It is impossible.
You said it yourself:
Boys will still punch the weaker boy. Girls will still gossip about the weaker girl. And variations thereof.
All people are different physically and mentally and everything in between. It's a spectrum. And that is a fact. And you're right - at no point will we treat each other completely the same. But that's not a valid reason to stop reaching for social improvement. Maybe I watch too much Star Trek. 
Personally, I'd like to see social improvement, but I'd like to see different methods employed to achieve it.
- Cassandra Saturn aime ceci
#185
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:04
Neoleviathan
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Just checked her Twitter feed. I think Anita knows she went too far with that toxic masculinity comment and now she's scrambling to back up her claims. Good luck with that.
I can try to forgive her for falling prey to all the negativity surrounding this thing, if that's all it was. Still pretty depressing.
#186
Guest_iatcb_*
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:10
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I know I'm being prescriptive. Forgive me. Sometimes people stop listening when you say, "I think we should..."
I think we should redirect our focus. Not "we" as in this thread. Just a general "we." Direct that focus toward a solution. Problem solving couldn't come sooner. And like with any relationship, it requires listening, compromise, and seeing issues from a perspective that clashes with one's own. It's hard for me to do, but I try. Maybe I won't change some opinions, but I have watched some perspectives of mine evolve into better stances.
- Vroom Vroom aime ceci
#187
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:17
schall_und_rauch
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In spite of that, I will take what I can get. There has been so much ....aggression... in regard to gaming culture. From all sides. It's time there was an open, fluid, and reasonable dialogue to help us reach some kind of resolution. I know that's idealism talking. I realize there will always be someone who is discontent, but hopefully there will come a point where we can see resolution in spite of said discontent.
And this is coming from someone who identifies as a feminist. I know that's an ugly word to some people, but it is not to me. I treat it as a branch of humanism I put into practice - to the best of my knowledge and experience - on a daily basis. :shrug: I'm no spokesperson or anything. Just a person.
In my opening post, I didn't want to fuel any aggression. Nor did I want to bash feminism as a whole, or Anita as a person.
So, yeah, I was looking for a reasonable dialogue.
Specifically: She used the city elf origin of DAO as an example of the "we use rape to show how mean the meanies are" and saying that this is bad and sexually discriminating. I argued against some of her points: The person isn't victimized, other involved females have personalities and in the setting and context, using rape to show power and dominance is not unrealistic. I consider it an ok use of the threat of rape.
So, when I said I look for a dialogue, I look for anybody who is interested in the game not as a horrible example of how sexist video games are, but as somebody who generally enjoys that kind of game but feels uncomfortable with the way that scene is displayed. DAO was played by many female players. Is this a plot where female gamers feel exploitet, sexually discriminated or used? Anybody care to explain?
#188
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:18
SlottsMachine
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The problem is that there are too many people with there own agenda. And people that just want to **** disturb. I don't think any meaningful discussion will ever be had.
#189
Guest_iatcb_*
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:21
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Anita keeps going about how gaming industry is especially toxic to women. How women developers are attacked, how women players are harassed constantly
All lies.
There are many women in game development that do a great job and gamers like them.
Heck, there are women game developers that support GG and have spoken up - but the media is quiet as usual.
Women players aren't massively bullied online. If anything they get a lot of attention and they get treated BETTER than male players.
It's a different experience for everyone. There's no "it's not this way all the time, it is instead that way all the time." Too generalizing. Too inaccurate. Too subjective. We all have our personal opinions on "how it really is" but we're not entirely correct.
The focus should be harassment in general, since men, women, and children are each harassed online. Their experiences may vary, and depending on the person, the frequency and the type of said harassment will vary. Alienating (arguing against) one group of people over another in the name of online harassment isn't the accurate way to go about this.
#190
Guest_iatcb_*
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:22
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The problem is that there are too many people with there own agenda. And people that just want to **** disturb. I don't think any meaningful discussion will ever be had.
:shrug: I think we're doing it right now.
#191
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:25
Lotion Soronarr
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And this is coming from someone who identifies as a feminist.
Are you sure you're not an equalist?
#192
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:26
Neoleviathan
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In spite of that, I will take what I can get. There has been so much ....aggression... in regard to gaming culture. From all sides. It's time there was an open, fluid, and reasonable dialogue to help us reach some kind of resolution. I know that's idealism talking. I realize there will always be someone who is discontent, but hopefully there will come a point where we can see resolution in spite of said discontent.
And this is coming from someone who identifies as a feminist. I know that's an ugly word to some people, but it is not to me. I treat it as a branch of humanism I put into practice - to the best of my knowledge and experience - on a daily basis. :shrug: I'm no spokesperson or anything. Just a person.
I am hoping some dialogue will open up soon. There's allot of middle ground to be reached. Few have been able to get there because everyone have been on the defensive & lost right from the beginning. Honestly when it comes to corruption, harassment, & sexism everyone is damaged. Everyone looses. The game awards, the articles, the swatting & doxxing. Both sides can shake hands on stopping that if the negativity can be pushed aside.
It's also hard to empathize with opposite side when some of the biggest voices on either were complete unknowns before two weeks or two months ago. Before all this, doubt very many people had heard of ZQ, Brianna, Aristocrat, etc. People have only been able to see them at their worst, as the enemy. I think it might help if people who were more well known or liked stepped in to talk with each other & find what could build more bridges than are being burned.
#193
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:28
Lotion Soronarr
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All people are different physically and mentally and everything in between. It's a spectrum. And that is a fact.
It is, but there there are trends.
Predispositions.
There are reason why some things are considered or seen as "men things" and some "women things". Because there's simply biologicaly/psychologicaly a stronger pull there.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Yes, there will always be statistical outliers, always exceptions. But those don't change the general distribution.
#194
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:31
Lotion Soronarr
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It's a different experience for everyone. There's no "it's not this way all the time, it is instead that way all the time." Too generalizing. Too inaccurate. Too subjective. We all have our personal opinions on "how it really is" but we're not entirely correct.
The focus should be harassment in general, since men, women, and children are each harassed online. Their experiences may vary, and depending on the person, the frequency and the type of said harassment will vary. Alienating (arguing against) one group of people over another in the name of online harassment isn't the accurate way to go about this.
To be honest, a lot of this "harrasement" on-line is just a whole lot of nothing. Crying "wolf", which only makes detecting real harrasement more difficult.
My entire point was that this whole drivel about women being horribly targeted by gamers and unwelcome in the gaming industry is nothing but lies.
#195
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:34
Cassandra Saturn
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To be honest, a lot of this "harassment" on-line is just a whole lot of nothing. Crying "wolf", which only makes detecting real harassment more difficult.
My entire point was that this whole drivel about women being horribly targeted by gamers and unwelcome in the gaming industry is nothing but lies.
fixed that for you
#196
Guest_iatcb_*
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:38
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In my opening post, I didn't want to fuel any aggression. Nor did I want to bash feminism as a whole, or Anita as a person.
So, yeah, I was looking for a reasonable dialogue.
Specifically: She used the city elf origin of DAO as an example of the "we use rape to show how mean the meanies are" and saying that this is bad and sexually discriminating. I argued against some of her points: The person isn't victimized, other involved females have personalities and in the setting and context, using rape to show power and dominance is not unrealistic. I consider it an ok use of the threat of rape.
So, when I said I look for a dialogue, I look for anybody who is interested in the game not as a horrible example of how sexist video games are, but as somebody who generally enjoys that kind of game but feels uncomfortable with the way that scene is displayed. DAO was played by many female players. Is this a plot where female gamers feel exploitet, sexually discriminated or used? Anybody care to explain?
It could be pointed out that the threat of rape against females is overused in storytelling. To show how "villainous" a villain is - he will rape a woman.
It's funny because I find this trope more offensive to men than to women. If you've read a story or played a video game in which a villainous female raped another person (any gender) - you might do a doubletake since it is such an underused trope for female villains.
"Bad guys" - quite literally bad men - tend to have their level of evil-ness measured by how rape-y they are. As if a man who is evil couldn't be opposed to rape. It'd be more interesting to see an evil male character who is legitimately against rape.
Are you sure you're not an equalist?
Feminism is a branch of humanism that supports the equality for women. Unfortunately it has been radicalized by those who marginalize issues and paint a "black vs. white" debate around them. I can be labeled in any capacity that people prefer. After all, I hope my actions/sentiment speak louder than the labels I use as shorthand, describing the basics of my ideals.
It is, but there there are trends.
Predispositions.
There are reason why some things are considered or seen as "men things" and some "women things". Because there's simply biologicaly/psychologicaly a stronger pull there.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Yes, there will always be statistical outliers, always exceptions. But those don't change the general distribution.
Exactly, there are tends. Trends are coupled with the biologically/psychologically established pulls already set in place. The general distribution isn't as general as we want to think it is. We're handed proverbial "easter baskets" of information that generalize the overwhelming nuances of the globe for us. I often find myself questioning those neatly packaged generalities. :/
I am hoping some dialogue will open up soon. There's allot of middle ground to be reached. Few have been able to get there because everyone have been on the defensive & lost right from the beginning. Honestly when it comes to corruption, harassment, & sexism everyone is damaged. Everyone looses. The game awards, the articles, the swatting & doxxing. Both sides can shake hands on stopping that if the negativity can be pushed aside.
It's also hard to empathize with opposite side when some of the biggest voices on either were complete unknowns before two weeks or two months ago. Before all this, doubt very many people had heard of ZQ, Brianna, Aristocrat, etc. People have only been able to see them at their worst, as the enemy. I think it might help if people who were more well known or liked stepped in to talk with each other & find what could build more bridges than are being burned.
can I hug you?
- phantomrachie aime ceci
#197
Guest_Corvus I_*
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:39
Guest_Corvus I_*
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So, when I said I look for a dialogue, I look for anybody who is interested in the game not as a horrible example of how sexist video games are, but as somebody who generally enjoys that kind of game but feels uncomfortable with the way that scene is displayed. DAO was played by many female players. Is this a plot where female gamers feel exploitet, sexually discriminated or used? Anybody care to explain?
This is where Anita's arguments breaks down, probably because she did not understand the story line. Some could argue that there was no need to include a rape in the game. But this is not a child's game and this kind of event does occur in our consciousness. It scares the hell out of me that for being in the wrong place at the wrong time it could happen to me, so it is a real concern, but it is not an exploitation of females in a game in as much as it is not repeatable and it's intent is to show how despicable the antagonist is for later use in the game and a comment on the player morality for allowing this to happen and be bought off to disregard it or to seek revenge ( a trait normally / stereotypically associated with females).
What Bio could have done is have also made the association of male rape as a balancing, which I am sure is just as frightening and loathsome, but that seems a little over kill to me for the sake of a couple of critics.
For many of us what Anita does is totally acceptable simply because right or wrong she is bringing to the centre issues that need to be addressed. It is only when she comes to close to something I don't find objections with that she becomes a ranter and exploiter her self.
- Han Shot First aime ceci
#198
Guest_iatcb_*
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 08:48
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she becomes a ranter and exploiter her self.
I wonder if a lifetime of backlash caused her to harden over time and thus the ranting and exploiting.
I also wonder if this could be a possibility for those who strongly oppose her, or say they oppose feminism in general. There are many people out there who feel alienated by some points that feminism brings up. The fault on the part of feminism is that its more vocal constituents neglect to discuss gender in a wider scope, meaning, the way in which sexism hurts those who identify as male. Sexism demonstrated by all genders, that is.
There's a vocal demographic out there who want a safe place to express their feelings without the threat of being hated or called names. In truth, this is something all (most?) people want. The more discontent groups of people who identify as male appear to be feeling.......ignored. (Among other feelings, of course.) I think they want someone to listen to them. They want someone to talk to them. They want self improvement as well, but not through aggression and hatred - but through understanding, education, and peaceful resolution.
#199
Guest_iatcb_*
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 09:33
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To be honest, a lot of this "harrasement" on-line is just a whole lot of nothing. Crying "wolf", which only makes detecting real harrasement more difficult.
My entire point was that this whole drivel about women being horribly targeted by gamers and unwelcome in the gaming industry is nothing but lies.
Has someone harassed you or someone you care about? I ask because you take a stance on defending the reality of harassment, as if perhaps you've suffered harassment. If I could venture to guess, and forgive me if I'm misinterpreting you, but you express concern over those who are in higher need of help with harassment issues. Do you think there is a deficit of help offered to people that suffer legitimate harassment? Have you experienced this? I'm genuine here, I hope these questions aren't coming off as confrontational. I want to know where you're coming from - I want to know how you feel.
What would your solution be to identify real harassment?
#200
Posté 25 octobre 2014 - 09:33
slimgrin
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When modern Feminism's default position is males are evul, it's hard to move on from there. Best to pick a new stance, ideally gender equality, and then discuss. This is why Anita's points instantly devolve into conflict. You can't even get off the ground with her logic. As for online harassment, we need to take a fresh look at that. By Anita's definition I should have gone into hiding years ago. Let's be realistic about the effect it has.
