7155 réponses à ce sujet

[BabyPuncher]

Absolutely, and I see that stipulation included with the request for this archetype pretty often. 

 

It seems like the model for the concept is most often Alistair, whose just brimming with compassion and badassery and an irrepressible sense of humor. Still, he's not a fully white knight. As I recall he doesn't offer disapproval points for agreeing to work with a guild of assassins, for example.

 

That sounds like a very low bar for 'badassery.'

 

What has Alistair done that qualifies him as 'brimming' in badassery, exactly?

[BabyPuncher]

Speaking of which, how does Dorian fail these supposed qualifications? He's gay. He's a good guy. I don't remember anything indicating he was promiscuious. He has a sense of humor. He's powerful.

 

Of course, the qualities that make him a 'good guy' are trite and shallow since there's really no conflicts that enunciate them in the story. But that's pretty much true of every other character and it hasn't stopped people in this thread from praising Bull and whoever else. 

[Hellion Rex]

Speaking of which, how does Dorian fail these supposed qualifications? He's gay. He's a good guy. I don't remember anything indicating he was promiscuious. He has a sense of humor. He's powerful.

 

Of course, the qualities that make him a 'good guy' are trite and shallow since there's really no conflicts that enunciate them in the story. But that's pretty much true of every other character and it hasn't stopped people in this thread from praising Bull and whoever else. 

Well, primarily, a "KISA" should be a warrior. Dorian was charming and witty, but he wasn't as...."noble" as Alistair or even Cullen, i.e. Dorian wasn't a knight in shining armor.

[BabyPuncher]

Well, primarily, a "KISA" should be a warrior. Dorian was charming and witty, but he wasn't as...."noble" as Alistair or even Cullen, i.e. Dorian wasn't a knight in shining armor.

 

...That's it?

[Grieving Natashina]

Among other things, yes.   

[BabyPuncher]

What other things?

[eyezonlyii]

Among him not being a warrior is the fact that his character archetype as written in the game files themselves is a Dashing Rogue. But let's just agree to disagree. This is a never ending topic of contention, and everyone has said their piece multiple times. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Did you have any ideas for a non-hetero KISA?  See, we've also counted party members like Cassandra, Aveline, Kaidan (despite the class, he's got the rest of the attitude,) and Sebastian (same) as well.

 

Time and time again in most fantasy settings, a straight character is the warrior, the leader.  The one that wields a sword and shield.  It's a trend in games and in media in general that many of us would like to change.   We would like the knight archetype (there's been one in every numbered DA game,) to be non-heterosexual this time.  BioWare is going to include a gay character, and given that BW uses the knight archetype a lot, this is a great time to request ideas.  

 

If you go through the thread, then you'll see the various ideas and reasons why many of us would like this idea.  If you don't feel like reading through, that's fine but the answers to many of your questions are in the thread already.

 

 

Among him not being a warrior is the fact that his character archetype as written in the game files themselves is a Dashing Rogue. But let's just agree to disagree. This is a never ending topic of contention, and everyone has said their piece multiple times. 

Yep.

[Zobert]

Speaking of which, how does Dorian fail these supposed qualifications? He's gay. He's a good guy. I don't remember anything indicating he was promiscuious. He has a sense of humor. He's powerful.

 

Of course, the qualities that make him a 'good guy' are trite and shallow since there's really no conflicts that enunciate them in the story. But that's pretty much true of every other character and it hasn't stopped people in this thread from praising Bull and whoever else. 

 

I 100% agree with you.  Dorian is a KISA and if they had battle mages in this game like Skyrim and he wielded a sword everyone would be like: Look at that glorious Knight in Shining Armor!

 

If like it was shiny which I'm pretty sure it would be if it were Dorians.

[Grieving Natashina]

All I'll say is this: When I think of a KISA, I don't think of someone who was intentionally given the last name Pavus, meaning Peacock in Latin.   Peacocks are generally associated with vanity, especially in men since it's the male peacock that's the one with the bright feathers.  Among other things, Dorian is too vain, too cocky, too selfish (he admits it,) and not a leader.  He has a personal code of honor he follows, but isn't a part of any order.

 

A KISA tends to be humble (Dorian is quite vain,) honorable to a fault (Dorian is not that way) and a leader with a strict Code of Honor.  Not just a strict personal code, but a Code he/she followers as part of an order.  Another example of a KISA listed was Samara from the ME games.

 

That's what we're requesting.  Folks have their own opinion about Dorian, but someone similar to Samara, or Cass, or Alistair or Cullen is more of what we're asking.  Not the "devil-may-care" dashing young rebel type.

[Zobert]

Well, primarily, a "KISA" should be a warrior. Dorian was charming and witty, but he wasn't as...."noble" as Alistair or even Cullen, i.e. Dorian wasn't a knight in shining armor.

 

Here we go...

 

He was 5x as noble because this wasn't his fight.  He went against his own countrymen.  He was also a warrior because he went to war with you.

 

What he is not is a sword wielder.

 

As a mage, I am a warrior.  Saying he's not a warrior is like saying all the women who went to Iraq and Afghanistan as support in high danger areas with snipers weren't real marines or real combat warriors.  They're in war.  They're warriors.

 

Anyway, if what people want is a sword wielder goody two shoes, butter wouldn't melt in my mouth, chaste virgin knight in shining armor type so be it.

 

 

Hopefully there will be something for everyone.

[eyezonlyii]

I 100% agree with you.  Dorian is a KISA and if they had battle mages in this game like Skyrim and he wielded a sword everyone would be like: Look at that glorious Knight in Shining Armor!

 

If like it was shiny which I'm pretty sure it would be if it were Dorians.

*looks at Vivienne's Knight Enchanter spec* 

[BabyPuncher]

 

Did you have any ideas for a non-hetero KISA?

 

I think you need to step back and think long and hard about what the idea of a knight means beyond the clothing he wears.

 

Also, I don't really think BioWare has done an overwhelmingly great job with masculine, moral characters in general, straight or gay. They did an absolutely fantastic job with Garrus, and there are definitely some very strong moments from their player characters, but it's not really something I would say straight people have had a monopoly on.

[Zobert]

All I'll say is this: When I think of a KISA, I don't think of someone who was intentionally given the last name Pavus, meaning Peacock in Latin.  Among other things, Dorian is too vain, too cocky, too selfish (he admits it,) and not a leader.  He has a personal code of honor he follows, but isn't a part of any order.

 

A KISA tends to be humble (Dorian is quite vain,) honorable to a fault (Dorian is not that way) and a leader with a strict Code of Honor.  Not just a strict personal code, but a Code he/she followers as part of an order.  Another example of a KISA listed was Samara from the ME games.

 

 

Even if you get a KISA he won't be a leader.  We led Alastair.  We're the hero of the game. 

 

Dorian says those things about himself but none of them are true.

 

He had zero reason to help a stranger, to put his life at risk for a stranger, to try to help a country that hates who he is, and how is that noble or good?

 

Most KISAs are peacocks, because that is the fatal flaw of these heroes in history.  Achilles...vanity.  Lancelot...vanity which led to lust and downfall because he thought himself incapable of falling into sin. 

[AresKeith]

Well, primarily, a "KISA" should be a warrior. Dorian was charming and witty, but he wasn't as...."noble" as Alistair or even Cullen, i.e. Dorian wasn't a knight in shining armor.

 

why must you reply to the David lol

[Zobert]

That sounds like a very low bar for 'badassery.'

 

What has Alistair done that qualifies him as 'brimming' in badassery, exactly?

 

It depends, sometimes he had some serious kill scenes.

 

I miss those.

[Zobert]

There are ways to work around this.  You can play with the KISA trope in several ways.  I could see a situation where a chevalier goes along with the initiation but, as s/he sees the corruption in the ranks, has a change of heart and then vows to reform the order to it's past glory.  I could also see a situation where a chevalier doesn't go through with the initiation, but people think that they have and they can work from within to reform the order.  I don't think that being associated with the chevaliers is an immediate deal breaker because there are ways to work around it with creative writing. 

 

Cassandra is doing that with the Seekers now.

[eyezonlyii]

I think you need to step back and think long and hard about what the idea of a knight means beyond the clothing he wears.

 

Also, I don't really think BioWare has done an overwhelmingly great job with masculine, moral characters in general, straight or gay. They did an absolutely fantastic job with Garrus, and there are definitely some very strong moments from their player characters, but it's not really something I would say straight people have had a monopoly on.

I think you should read more of the thread, before you start telling people what they should and shouldn't think about in a character. But to your other point, the most LGBT characters have fallen more than the straight characters on the sliding scale of shadyness. And basically the sword and board, moral lynch-pin of the party has been straight in each game and we're just asking for a different take. 

 

Lastly, Garrus stinks. *blows raspberry*

[Grieving Natashina]

So, that's a no?   Again, if you go through the thread, there is several ideas there:

 

A KISA tends to be humble,  honorable to a fault and a leader with a strict Code of Honor.  Not just a strict personal code, but a Code he/she follows as part of an order.  Another example of a KISA listed was Samara from the ME games.

 

That's what we're requesting.  Folks have their own opinion about Dorian, but someone similar to Samara, or Cass, or Alistair or Cullen is more of what we're asking.  Not the "devil-may-care" dashing young rebel type.  For my opinion, as someone that is LGBT, I think they've done a great job with the non-heterosexual characters, especially this time around.   I also think they've done a great job with moral masculine characters as well.  Blackwall is fantastic, I still adore Alistair and Cullen is great.

 

Again, do you have any ideas?  We've had tons of them, everything from a standard gay Templar all the way up to gay/bisexual Qunari Blacksmiths and members of the Avvar.  We've spent a lot of time talking about attitude, mentality, emotion and even romance arc ideas.  You may think we've just been talking about a class, but we've been getting into the qualities we'd like to see.

 

@Ares Ah, noted.   Now I'm really confused as to why he's in this thread.

 

Hush, eye.  Garrus is my favorite ME romance.

[eyezonlyii]

It depends, sometimes he had some serious kill scenes.

 

I miss those.

triggered. and reported for to much adult content. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I think you need to step back and think long and hard about what the idea of a knight means beyond the clothing he wears.

 

Also, I don't really think BioWare has done an overwhelmingly great job with masculine, moral characters in general, straight or gay. They did an absolutely fantastic job with Garrus, and there are definitely some very strong moments from their player characters, but it's not really something I would say straight people have had a monopoly on.

Errr, Garrus isn't exactly "moral." He's basically Renegade Shep with a sense of humor and mandibles.

[daveliam]

I 100% agree with you.  Dorian is a KISA and if they had battle mages in this game like Skyrim and he wielded a sword everyone would be like: Look at that glorious Knight in Shining Armor!

 

If like it was shiny which I'm pretty sure it would be if it were Dorians.

 

"IF" is they key word here.  Because he isn't a battle mage; he's a support spec'd mage.  He doesn't wield a sword; he wields a staff.  And he doesn't wear shining armor; he wears traditional mage robes. 

 

Again, these things aren't necessarily deal breakers.  Sebastian is a play on a KISA type, even though he's a rogue and a bow wielder (he does have shining armor, though).  But the fact that his personality type is literally "dashing rogue" in the game files should tell you that he's not intended to be a KISA type.  His personality has some parts that align with a KISA type (that "Don't worry; I'll protect you" line in the Redcliffe quest is a serious male-panty dropper), but not enough that can overcompensate the fact that he's a "dashing rogue" of a support spec'd mage. 

 

But, again, I really hate when this thread becomes a "Why does this thread even exist because DORIAN!?!" discussion.

[Zobert]

I think you should read more of the thread, before you start telling people what they should and shouldn't think about in a character. But to your other point, the most LGBT characters have fallen more than the straight characters on the sliding scale of shadyness. And basically the sword and board, moral lynch-pin of the party has been straight in each game and we're just asking for a different take. 

 

Lastly, Garrus stinks. *blows raspberry*

 

Do you mean in games/movies in general?  Because I think Bioware has avoided making the gay characters shady.  The straight people are more apt to be evil, with Marjolaine being an exception.

 

I say that because Anders is playersexual, so...

 

Solas is

Spoiler

shady shade shade

Morrigan is

Spoiler

I love her but shady

Flemeth is _____

Anora is a huge ******

Loghain is ambiguous but I remember Ostagar differently so...shady!

Sister Patrice (beats Corphy for villain)

Corphy doesn't have a boyfriend so I'll assume he's asexual or straight

[Lady Artifice]

That sounds like a very low bar for 'badassery.'
 
What has Alistair done that qualifies him as 'brimming' in badassery, exactly?

Within the context of the setting, Grey Wardens are considered to default as extremely competent combatants. It's a prerequisite for being one. Admittedly, the term I used is subject to opinion, but considering that Alistair is one of the people capable of killing an Archdemon, I'd suggest that it's a pretty reasonable opinion for me to have.

As for your other nitpick, why is this a matter of contention? The common perception of a Knight is a warrior, not a magic user.

[daveliam]

Do you mean in games/movies in general?  Because I think Bioware has avoided making the gay characters shady.  The straight people are more apt to be evil, with Marjolaine being an exception.

 

Zevran - assassin

Leliana - former assassin

Anders - terrorist

Fenris - vigilante

Isabela - pirate queen

Iron Bull - mercenary and spy

Sera - underworld Robin Hood type

 

The only LGBT LI's who aren't on the shady side are:

 

Merrill, Dorian, and Josephine