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[BabyPuncher]

No, I don't think so.

The term I used was a matter of opinion, as subjective as calling someone beautiful. Subjective terms aren't rendered obsolete just because they're debatable. I feel okay about my choice of words...I barely understand why we're arguing about it.

 

Because if writers think that's all it takes to have players gush over how awesome a character is, that's all they're going to give you. And me.

 

You know, violence is not a tea party. It's not a picnic where we giggle with our friends and punch meanies and bullies in the face. it ought to carry a little more weight in a dramatic story then characters being full of 'badassery.'

[Grieving Natashina]

I don't think that Dorian is shady.  But he doesn't really have that much of an issue with slavery.  You can argue that it's part of his culture, but he kind of hand-waves it away when you first talk to him about it.  I'll say this:  If the next game takes place in Tevinter and he's returned to 'reform' Tevinter, I would not be surprised to see that he owns slaves. 

Well, he said that he didn't own any, but his family did.  I don't think Dorian was lying to the player. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

 

I'll admit, that's a case of YMMV.  Some very well could see him as shady by working with Alexius on time magic.  I've also read folks say that he's shady because his family owns slaves.  A few tried to state that Dorian himself owns slaves, but he said he didn't.  I believe the character over some paranoid posters.    When it comes to Dorian being any sort of shady, that is very subjective.  I don't feel that way myself.

If you're going to be that loose regarding interpretation, you can make pretty much every character in Dragon Age "shady." And Dorian was working on time magic with Alexius before Alexius fell from his "good" Tevinter path. It was academic. And if people want to interpret researching something that someone else eventually used for ill or being in proximity to a slave owner as "shady" then they can, but they're idiots with a tenuous grasp on both morality and reality.

[Zobert]

The party in DA 2 had 9 characters:

Straight males - Carver (your RELATIVE), Varric (Won't date you), Sebastian (Expansion not everyone bought it)

Straight females - Bethany (RELATIVE), Aveline (Won't date)

Bisexual males - Anders, Fenris

Bisexual females - Isabela, Merrill

 

Outside of the lack of gay and lesbian characters in the main party, there was a variety of representation.

[/quote]

 

 

I was speaking about LIs...all of the people you can scrump in the game are bisexual?

 

Then that means straight males, gay males, lesbians, etc are not represented with LIs and only bis are.

[daveliam]

Well, he said that he didn't own any, but his family did.  I don't think Dorian was lying to the player. 

 

Yeah, I don't think he was lying.  But, to be honest, the way that tempers rise when discussing Dorian, I'd rather leave it be.  No reason for people to get all riled up when it's not really even on-topic. 

[Zobert]

Because if writers think that's all it takes to have players gush over how awesome a character is, that's all they're going to give you. And me.

 

You know, violence is not a tea party. It's not a picnic where we giggle with our friends and punch meanies and bullies in the face. it ought to carry a little more weight in a dramatic story then characters being full of 'badassery.'

 

Then we shouldn't be playing the games at all.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Would you try to date a guy that only spoke about women to you?  I dunno.  I look for signs in people.  If they're not giving off hints I tend to assume to be on the safe side.  Kinda like feeling people out about being married or in a relationship.

You could always, I don't know, ask him.

[eyezonlyii]

Because if writers think that's all it takes to have players gush over how awesome a character is, that's all they're going to give you. And me.
 
You know, violence is not a tea party. It's not a picnic where we giggle with our friends and punch meanies and bullies in the face. it ought to carry a little more weight in a dramatic story then characters being full of 'badassery.'

The only way to accurately convey that is to have much fewer but way more intensive fights and to make character death permanent. Both of which would anger many people. Me, maybe not, but I tend to agree with this stance at least.

[Grieving Natashina]

If you're going to be that loose regarding interpretation, you can make pretty much every character in Dragon Age "shady." And Dorian was working on time magic with Alexius before Alexius fell from his "good" Tevinter path. It was academic. And if people want to interpret researching something that someone else eventually used for ill or being in proximity to a slave owner as "shady" then they can, but they're idiots with a tenuous grasp on both morality and reality.

Let me state this again:  I don't feel that way about Dorian.  I know others that do, so I put him on the list.   I agree with you completely.  The slavery aspect doesn't bother me because I'm a history nerd.  Tevinter is much like the late Roman Empire and I know that the inspiration for the nation comes from that time period.  

 

In Rome, a slave could actually have a really good life.  Oftentimes they were not just fed and clothed, but given a formal education as well.  They could go on to be tutors, advisers, merchants and accountants on behalf of their masters.  In fact, many times they were treated better than the average citizen.   They could also buy their freedom as well, and become "freemen."  Slightly lower in status than a citizen, but of higher rank than a slave (obviously.)

 

So I don't think Dorian is shady due to his views on slavery because of my knowledge of Roman slaves in RL history.  He even points out that the alienages and the slums aren't really any better, and I agreed with him.

[daveliam]

Would you try to date a guy that only spoke about women to you?  I dunno.  I look for signs in people.  If they're not giving off hints I tend to assume to be on the safe side.  Kinda like feeling people out about being married or in a relationship.

 

But we know for sure with Anders because his writer has confirmed that the character was bisexual back when he was writing him for DA: A.  There's no need to 'look for signs' because we have WoG.

 

Doesn't have to be sword and board. I could be alright with a twohanded weapon or polearm. Though dual wielding is pushing it.

 

Unless it's two axes!  Dual axes ftw!  (Sigrun was such a badass!)

 

I was speaking about LIs...all of the people you can scrump in the game are bisexual?

 

Then that means straight males, gay males, lesbians, etc are not represented with LIs and only bis are.

 

Sebastian was straight.  There were 5 LI's and 20% of them were straight.  80% were bisexual.  And 0% were gay/lesbian.

[Zobert]

My BF is an Afghan and Iraq vet and he refuses to play FPS games because he said it's too lifelike and desensitizes people to killing.  He thinks he wouldn't have joined the marines without having played them so much as a teen.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Let me state this again:  I don't feel that way about Dorian.  I know others that do, so I put him on the list.   I agree with you completely.  The slavery aspect doesn't bother me because I'm a history nerd.  Tevinter is much like the late Roman Empire.  In Rome, a slave could actually have a really good life.  Oftentimes they were not just fed and clothed, but given a formal education as well.  They could go on to be tutors, advisers, merchants and accountants on behalf of their masters.  In fact, many times they were treated better than the average citizen.

 

So I don't think Dorian is shady due to his views on slavery because of my knowledge of Roman slaves in RL history.  He even points out that the alienages and the slums aren't really any better, and I agreed with him.

My point is why do those people's opinions matter on the subject when they're delusional? Like I said, you can make every character out to be dubious if you hand wave and manipulate context enough.

[BabyPuncher]

The only way to accurately convey that is to have much fewer but way more intensive fights and to make character death permanent. Both of which would anger many people. Me, maybe not, but I tend to agree with this stance at least.

 

Err...no. You simply have to have characters struggle and experience moments of fear, despair, or other obstacles. As much as people criticize mainstream video games, most of them are able to do this.

 

Oh, and avoid claiming your characters have talents that never show up in the plot.

[Grieving Natashina]

My point is why do those people's opinions matter on the subject when they're delusional? Like I said, you can make every character out to be dubious if you hand wave and manipulate context enough.

I don't think they're delusional, just mistaken.   However, I may disagree but that's doesn't invalidate their opinion.   I also didn't want someone to go, "but Dorian likes slavery, and that makes him amoral" so I was nipping that in the bud by just throwing that on the list.   I think it's silly, but I find that adding a few words for the sake of peace goes a very long way.

 

The Dorian debate is overdone at this point, and the last hour in here has been a little heated.  Let's talk about something more fun and more on topic.  

 

@dave An axe wielding ambidextrous Avvar?  Sounds like fun to me.  

[Zobert]

But we know for sure with Anders because his writer has confirmed that the character was bisexual back when he was writing him for DA: A.  There's no need to 'look for signs' because we have WoG.

 

 

Unless it's two axes!  Dual axes ftw!  (Sigrun was such a badass!)

 

 

Sebastian was straight.  There were 5 LI's and 20% of them were straight.  80% were bisexual.  And 0% were gay/lesbian.

 

Well Sebastian is expansion pack and a lot of people didn't bother, but it still means that only bisexuals and straight women had their sexuality represented.

 

Straight guys and gays and lesbians did not.

 

So my point is that maybe people who complained were right to.  That's a **** representation if you're not a bi.

 

I dunno, I think they're retrofitting to seem like they didn't playersexual it.  Zev flat tells you what he's into, as does Isabella.

 

Sort of drunk musings...as a bi I know people of both sexes that refuse to date you because they are insecure about your commitment even tho monogamy is monogamy. 

[daveliam]

@dave An axe wielding ambidextrous Avvar?  Sounds like fun to me.  

 

Yes please!  I'm telling you, dual wield rogue Avvar scout for the bisexual male option in DA4!  Perfect counterpart to the gay KISA that we're totally getting, right?

[Grieving Natashina]

May we move this away from playersexuality please?   You can start a thread discussing that if you want, but since this is about characters with set and clear sexualities, it's getting very off topic at this point.

 

 

Yes please!  I'm telling you, dual wield rogue Avvar scout for the bisexual male option in DA4!  Perfect counterpart to the gay KISA that we're totally getting, right?

 

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the devs were lurking around this thread.   It's been around for several months after all. 

[daveliam]

 

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the devs were lurking around this thread.   It's been around for several months after all. 

 

 

Well we know that Weekes knows about it since he retweeted that tweet that someone sent him.  Bodes well for us!

[Grieving Natashina]

ETA:  Actually, nevermind.  I agree with nata on this one.

Thanks hun.  I owe you a hard cider, since I refuse to drink beer.  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Here's what I'd like to know...where is all the characters like Aveline, Cullen, Blackwall that are LGBT?  Right, they don't exist.

Did you just use Rainier as an example of a non-shady character? 

[Grieving Natashina]

Did you just use Rainier as an example of a non-shady character? 

Yes I did.  We know what he did as Rainier.   I don't consider Blackwall and Rainier the same person for the most part.

 

What did he do as Blackwall that was so shady, aside from lying?  And if lying made a character shady, we might as well throw pretty much every DA party member and major NPC on that list. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Wait a sec, totally OT, but if everyone in DA2 (sans expansion) that's romanceable is bi then maybe straight dudes and chicks and straight gays and lesbians were right to complain about no representation because bisexuality is its own orientation.

 

So back to KISAs...how did the original Aveline become a Chevalier if she was required to murder and rape some elves?

 

I think once upon a time maybe this was not the case.

The original Aveline never became a Chevalier. She was killed the moment she was discovered in a tourney because women don't fight. Her skill changed that and she serves as the inspiration for female knights and Chevaliers. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes I did and here's why:

 

We know what he did as Rainier.  What did he do as Blackwall that was so shady, aside from lying?  And if lying made a character shady, we might as well throw pretty much every DA party member and major NPC on that list.

He is pretending to be somebody he is not and uses it to trick people into doing things, like using the Warden treaties when he isn't a Warden.

Regardless of intentions, that is shady. 

[Zobert]

The original Aveline never became a Chevalier. She was killed the moment she was discovered in a tourney because women don't fight. Her skill changed that and she serves as the inspiration for female knights and Chevaliers. 

How did she get into the tourney without being a Chevalier?

[ThreeF]

How did she get into the tourney without being a Chevalier?

well..she managed to get there while being a woman.....