7149 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That?  Is incredibly helpful.  Thank you for that.  I still have a ton of questions, but don't want to derail the thread, so I'll either take it to PM or wait for you to finally make a thread advocating for options that you think will represent you.  And I totally think you should and would definitely throw my support behind it if you choose to do so.

You're welcome. If you have any more, yeah ask via PM. I may not be able to answer them all but I'll try my best. 

 

As for a thread, I'm trying to figure out how I should word it. If you have any suggestions, PM them too please. This goes to everyone. 

[RevilFox]

I think this is relevent to this discussion. It's a description of a new book by Neil Gaiman called The Sleeper and the Spindle:

"On the eve of her wedding, a young queen sets out to rescue a princess from an enchantment. She casts aside her fine wedding clothes, takes her chain mail and her sword and follows her brave dwarf retainers into the tunnels under the mountain towards the sleeping kingdom. This queen will decide her own future - and the princess who needs rescuing is not quite what she seems."

 

[Hellion Rex]

I think this is relevent to this discussion. It's a description of a new book by Neil Gaiman called The Sleeper and the Spindle:

"On the eve of her wedding, a young queen sets out to rescue a princess from an enchantment. She casts aside her fine wedding clothes, takes her chain mail and her sword and follows her brave dwarf retainers into the tunnels under the mountain towards the sleeping kingdom. This queen will decide her own future - and the princess who needs rescuing is not quite what she seems."

 

Oh wow!!!!! THIS IS AWESOME!

[sandalisthemaker]

Oh, that's a good find RevilFox.

[GreyVsGray]

Why must we include every real world sexuality ? We have Straight/Bi/Gay , What others could we possibly need and for what reason would we need to even include them?

Because using the same 4 things is boring as hell?

Because, just like people want/need to see more skin tones than pale moonlight and mayonnaise, we also need and want to see more than the tough and gruff straight, gay/lesbian, and bisexuals? Because there's no real Asexual character that can be looked at and say "Hey, we have that person. That's a badass Ace, yo."

Because people care so much about the first 2 parts of LGBT that the other parts of the spectrum are mocked and ignored even by gay people

You must find it hard to step out of that overly represented comfort zone?

(I know I just fed a troll but still...)

[DaySeeker]

Because using the same 4 things is boring as hell?

Because, just like people want/need to see more skin tones than pale moonlight and mayonnaise, we also need and want to see more than the tough and gruff straight, gay/lesbian, and bisexuals? Because there's no real Asexual character that can be looked at and say "Hey, we have that person. That's a badass Ace, yo."

Because people care so much about the first 2 parts of LGBT that the other parts of the spectrum are mocked and ignored even by gay people

You must find it hard to step out of that overly represented comfort zone?

(I know I just fed a troll but still...)

 

I gotta say this is more troll-y, you have said that lesbians and gays have mocked ignored transgender and bisexual folks- unfair statement.  It's not an argument I wish to have, suffice to say everyone knows how to be cruel and selfish.  

 

I am in favor of writers creating interesting characters that represent a variety of people, but if a game is going to have love interests and those love interests are going to be limited in number, then they should be available to the most number of players, Since things like demi-sexuality and pansexuality are under larger sexuality umbrellas; I don't see the need for them to be explicitly stated, a player can read that into them if they like.  Asexuality is different, but again, I think a player can read it into existing relationships.  Polyamory in game is too complicated to put in a game, to have the PC engage in it.  I'd be happy to see these nuances portrayed in in game characters, but I think it would be exclusionary to a very large number of players as a love interest.I don't think the specificity of a character's sexual proclivities needs to be delved into.  Does Cassandra have a foot fetish- don't need to know.  Is the Gray Warden a Furry- does not need to be stated.  I think what players want to see in game relationships is affection and general desire and we can fill in the rest in our heads and fan fiction.   

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I gotta say this is more troll-y, you have said that lesbians and gays have mocked ignored transgender and bisexual folks- unfair statement.  It's not an argument I wish to have, suffice to say everyone knows how to be cruel and selfish.  

 

I am in favor of writers creating interesting characters that represent a variety of people, but if a game is going to have love interests and those love interests are going to be limited in number, then they should be available to the most number of players, Since things like demi-sexuality and pansexuality are under larger sexuality umbrellas; I don't see the need for them to be explicitly stated, a player can read that into them if they like.  Asexuality is different, but again, I think a player can read it into existing relationships.  Polyamory in game is too complicated to put in a game, to have the PC engage in it.  I'd be happy to see these nuances portrayed in in game characters, but I think it would be exclusionary to a very large number of players as a love interest.I don't think the specificity of a character's sexual proclivities needs to be delved into.  Does Cassandra have a foot fetish- don't need to know.  Is the Gray Warden a Furry- does not need to be stated.  I think what players want to see in game relationships is affection and general desire and we can fill in the rest in our heads and fan fiction.   

People can read any sexuality into a character if they like, so why not just drop sexualities entirely then? 

Also, please provide me characters who are demisexual. There must be many since you think they are under larger umbrellas than the main sexualities. Honestly, I'd love to hear them. So far I've been able to come up with maybe one. There was two, but Gaider shot that one down. 

[sandalisthemaker]

I believe he or she is saying that demi is under the larger umbrellas of straight, gay, and bisexual.

 

Kallen, I suggest that you gather your thoughts on this matter, since it is obviously personal for you, and make a thread concerning the types of romance you would like to see in a future DA game.  I personally am not knowledgeable with these specific types of sexualities like demi and ambiguous, etc. Since you frequently post on these boards and are passionate about this issue, I think you should be the one to start a thread. I'm sure there are others who would welcome the topic as well.

[sandalisthemaker]

Also, since we are not getting a gay KISA (yes daveliam I will adopt your acronym as well) companion in DA:I, I hope that we can see NPCs who fit the bill while playing the game. 

 

I would be very excited if so.

[DaySeeker]

People can read any sexuality into a character if they like, so why not just drop sexualities entirely then? 

Also, please provide me characters who are demisexual. There must be many since you think they are under larger umbrellas than the main sexualities. Honestly, I'd love to hear them. So far I've been able to come up with maybe one. There was two, but Gaider shot that one down. 

 

It wouldn't be a stretch to say that Leliana was demisexual, Alistair, Sebastian, Sten, Shayle, Morrigan.  Almost any of the characters.  It takes most of the game for them to fall in love with you, and some don't.  Leli was tough to romance if your played a female character.

 

edit: Also, players can not read any sexuality into a character.  Characters state their given preference, men, women, both.  WE can choose not to believe them, but they will act no other way in the game.

[Eudaemonium]

 Leli was tough to roamnce if your played a female character.

 

Really? I usually had to fight off her affections. I don;t think there was a single playthrough where I didn't get the "I thought we were more than friends" talk from her.

[Grieving Natashina]

Really? I usually had to fight off her affections. I don;t think there was a single playthrough where I didn't get the "I thought we were more than friends" talk from her.

Same, she was very easy to romance as a female Warden.  I've never played a male Warden, so I don't know there.  I've managed to avoid getting ninja-manced by her all but one time and I've played the game a dozen times now (literally, I have 11 completed Wardens, with the 12th on hold at the moment.)  

[Zjarcal]

Leli was tough to romance if your played a female character.

 

Wait, wut?

 

Are you referring to her romance potentially starting earlier for males and only till the hair convo for females? That was the only difference, the rest was the same effort (considering she was the one making the move there, it kinda evens out).

 

Anyway, that being said, I do agree with the gist of your post, most of the traits from all of these ambiguous "sexual orientations" can be applied to established characters, it all just feels like overcomplicating things with unnecessary labels (trying to refrain from ranting actually).

[In Exile]

I gotta say this is more troll-y, you have said that lesbians and gays have mocked ignored transgender and bisexual folks- unfair statement.  It's not an argument I wish to have, suffice to say everyone knows how to be cruel and selfish.

 

Bisexual erasure is definetly a thing, and it comes from both sides of the fence. 

 

Really? I usually had to fight off her affections. I don;t think there was a single playthrough where I didn't get the "I thought we were more than friends" talk from her.

Same, she was very easy to romance as a female Warden.  I've never played a male Warden, so I don't know there.  I've managed to avoid getting ninja-manced by her all but one time and I've played the game a dozen times now (literally, I have 11 completed Wardens, with the 12th on hold at the moment.)  

I suppose this is a YMMV but I always felt that for Leliana she had an emotional preference for women. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I believe he or she is saying that demi is under the larger umbrellas of straight, gay, and bisexual.

 

Kallen, I suggest that you gather your thoughts on this matter, since it is obviously personal for you, and make a thread concerning the types of romance you would like to see in a future DA game.  I personally am not knowledgeable with these specific types of sexualities like demi and ambiguous, etc. Since you frequently post on these boards and are passionate about this issue, I think you should be the one to start a thread. I'm sure there are others who would welcome the topic as well.

Except demisexuality is not. It is between sexual and asexual. 

 

Trust me, I want to. If anyone has any pointers on making a solid argument for an OP, I'd love to hear them. 

 

It wouldn't be a stretch to say that Leliana was demisexual, Alistair, Sebastian, Sten, Shayle, Morrigan.  Almost any of the characters.  It takes most of the game for them to fall in love with you, and some don't.  Leli was tough to romance if your played a female character.

 

edit: Also, players can not read any sexuality into a character.  Characters state their given preference, men, women, both.  WE can choose not to believe them, but they will act no other way in the game.

Um, none of these characters are. You can romance any of the LIs before you finish the first main quest after Lothering, and the other's aren't LIs and thus we don't get the sexuality context for them. 

Leliana hits it off with you almost immediately. 

Alistair is attracted to women by their appearance before building an emotional bond. 

Sebastian was a playboy before he took his vows, including one of chastity. 

Sten is hard to tell since those of the Qun only have sex for reproduction purposes. 

Shale is a golem, so her body has no sex drive. That makes asexual if anything. 

Morrigan doesn't want a relationship, she wants sex for the sex. If you get too close, she pushes you away. 

 

As for applying sexuality to characters, I was referring to characters who don't tell you what they are. Those characters are blank slates to the player, so the player can impose whatever sexuality they think fits. Someone could argue that Sten for example is a homosexual, and there is no evidence to oppose them. 

[Battlebloodmage]

Bisexual erasure is definetly a thing, and it comes from both sides of the fence. 

 

I suppose this is a YMMV but I always felt that for Leliana she had an emotional preference for women. 

From what I have seen, both gay and straight people I talked to will say that bisexual people are just gay in denial, and there is an extend of how much you can do with the same sex before you're gay, not straight. Even within the gay community, there is a very heteronormative view on sexuality. 

[Lee80]

I think Fenris totally counts as a knight in shinning armor type romance.  I would love to have more in the future though! 

[In Exile]

I think Fenris totally counts as a knight in shinning armor type romance.  I would love to have more in the future though! 

 

Fenris is a blood knight in scuffed armour. 

[GreyVsGray]

Bisexual erasure is VERY real.

 

Look at Dan Savage or Glee, two very big "LGBT" things that exist. Dan openly mocks bisexuals and Glee acts like bisexual people will cheat on their partner in a heartbeat, gay/straight people trying to fit in, or simply lesser beings.

 

Look at Tre Melvin, a very successful and popular youtuber who is harassed endlessly by people because he is now openly bisexual, being called "f-a-g-g-o-t" at all times by former fans who simply won't accept that a human can be attracted to one or more genders.

 

But I'm the troll for admitting it exists and that it needs to stop. That erasing everything after the LG is harmful. I'll take that label, friend. I'll take it in a heartbeat. 

[In Exile]

Look at Dan Savage or Glee, two very big "LGBT" things that exist. Dan openly mocks bisexuals and Glee acts like bisexual people will cheat on their partner in a heartbeat, gay/straight people trying to fit in, or simply lesser beings.

 

I have pretty mixed feelings about Dan Savage, but overall I'm not a fan. At least when it comes to his views on polyamory and bisexuality, though I think recently he's been better about bisexuality. 

[Hellion Rex]

Also, since we are not getting a gay KISA (yes daveliam I will adopt your acronym as well) companion in DA:I, I hope that we can see NPCs who fit the bill while playing the game. 

 

I would be very excited if so.

Yes. Give us a gay chevalier! Or give us some gay Orlesian soldiers in our army!

[Hellion Rex]

Bisexual erasure is VERY real.

 

Look at Dan Savage or Glee, two very big "LGBT" things that exist. Dan openly mocks bisexuals and Glee acts like bisexual people will cheat on their partner in a heartbeat, gay/straight people trying to fit in, or simply lesser beings.

Wait, is that the It Gets Better guy? Oh wow, very disappointed.

[GreyVsGray]

Wait, is that the It Gets Better guy? Oh wow, very disappointed.

The one and only. 

[DaySeeker]

Except demisexuality is not. It is between sexual and asexual. 

 

Trust me, I want to. If anyone has any pointers on making a solid argument for an OP, I'd love to hear them. 

 

Um, none of these characters are. You can romance any of the LIs before you finish the first main quest after Lothering, and the other's aren't LIs and thus we don't get the sexuality context for them. 

Leliana hits it off with you almost immediately. 

Alistair is attracted to women by their appearance before building an emotional bond. 

Sebastian was a playboy before he took his vows, including one of chastity. 

Sten is hard to tell since those of the Qun only have sex for reproduction purposes. 

Shale is a golem, so her body has no sex drive. That makes asexual if anything. 

Morrigan doesn't want a relationship, she wants sex for the sex. If you get too close, she pushes you away. 

 

As for applying sexuality to characters, I was referring to characters who don't tell you what they are. Those characters are blank slates to the player, so the player can impose whatever sexuality they think fits. Someone could argue that Sten for example is a homosexual, and there is no evidence to oppose them. 

 

All of that can be true and they can be demisexual, none of it could be true and they're demisexual.  I don't see any of that excluding the possibility.

 

Dan Savage openly mocks everyone, and has said a whole lot of positive and educated things on bisexuality and bisexual erasure.  Bisexuals often erase themselves, many gay men say they are straight or bisexual before they come out, statistically bi men couple with women more often and limit relationships to men for sex- this may be for a variety of reasons, none of which I judge them for, but the primary one is probably that it is easier to meet a women since there are way more women who like men than men who like men.  Bisexuals are also more easily able to blend in society.  I don't see how this makes all gays and lesbians ignoring bisexual and trans folks.  Gays and lesbians are not always kind to those who share their orientation either.   We have all hurt each other, I don't see casting blame, or pushing pain onto others as helpful.  I assume you are bisexual and felt disconnected from a community.  I'm a gay man and have often felt the same way.  It sucks, but everyone can not be painted with the same brush, which it seems like you are arguing for.

[Sully13]

Nah gay Dwarf or nuthin. Iwant Cherie Littlebottom