7155 réponses à ce sujet

[London]

Kaiden is the best M/M romance I've played in any BioWare game and I wish we could have more like him. He was masculine but sensitive. He probably turned out so well as he was originally a female-only LI. -.- though fewer in number I found that ME had the better written LGBT characters.

For DA:O modded the game to get Alistair and just head cannoned away the female pronouns in all subsequent games.

DA:I completely disappointed me when it came for gay romance options. I'm happy for people that enjoy the spectacle that is Dorian but he couldn't be further from my type. Every guy I ever was serious with was masculine (which back in the day sadly also meant closeted and I would not want to deal with that in game....). Dorian to me seems to be one of those gay best friend characters for the female lead over someone I would want to be with. How the female INquisitor felt led on by him is shocking given his demeanor.

I wish I knew how to use the buggy Bi Cullen mod as he would have been who I wanted. There are scenes that i head cannon as sexual tension (initial flirting, the scene where you comfort him about addiction where their faces are only inches apart) and I would have loved for a relationship to have started from that point. For now I still Romance Dorian but it's more my Inquisitor wanting to be in a relationship rather than truly being into him. Oh well.

[Walfan]

I think that it's telling that you keep using the word "normal".  "Normal" has different connotations than "the norm".  What I think you are advocating is for "the norm", but the fact that you keep calling femme guys not "normal" is telling.  The fact that you are comfortable with putting forward prejudiced views about femme guys is telling.  I genuinely think that your frustration is misplaced.  It shouldn't be pointed at feminine guys because you are tired of being associated with them because they are prominent in the media.  It should be pointed at the media who continues to represent gay men as one-dimensional stereotypes.  It should be pointed at the "general public" who form their opinions based on half-truths and stereotypes.  But it shouldn't be pointed at other gay men.  At least in my opinion.

 

Look, I agree with you that it's high time that we start seeing more traditionally masculine gay men in media.  Where you and I seem to differ is that I don't think that this has to be at the expense of feminine gay men.  I don't see it as "this or that".  I see it as "this and that".  Frankly, we're all in this together.  To someone who hates "queers", they don't care how masculine you are.  If you are gay, they hate you as much as they hate a super feminine drag queen. 

To become part of the norm we need to be seen as normal first, so yes I maintain that as long as the media keeps portraying us as first and foremost feminine, vain, depraved, whatever else, it won't happen. And video games are part of the media, as is Bioware.

 

It's not about throwing every femme guy in a fire pit it's about putting men that fit the norm as the central figure. Most straight men dislike feminine men, partly because they are gay and partly because they simply don't "fit" in. They usually have more feminine or reserved hobbies and as such straight men usually don't want to hang around with them. So why are some of them friends with women and not femme guys you ask ? It comes back to prejudice at this point, and the fact that men and women are still vastly different. You also have to remember that feminity is still seen as a weakness in a man.

Unfortunetly for us, straight people are the strong majority, so if we want them to view us as equal we need to at least partly abide by their rules first. It needs effort from both sides.

 

What I'm saying is that most of the gay man representation should consist of conventional men while still keeping the more stereotyped men on the side. Basically the opposite of what is still happening now.

[daveliam]

To become part of the norm we need to be seen as normal first, so yes I maintain that as long as the media keeps portraying us as first and foremost feminine, vain, depraved, whatever else, it won't happen. And video games are part of the media, as is Bioware.

 

It's not about throwing every femme guy in a fire pit it's about putting men that fit the norm as the central figure. Most straight men dislike feminine men, partly because they are gay and partly because they simply don't "fit" in. They usually have more feminine or reserved hobbies and as such straight men usually don't want to hang around with them. So why are some of them friends with women and not femme guys you ask ? It comes back to prejudice at this point, and the fact that men and women are still vastly different. You also have to remember that feminity is still seen as a weakness in a man.

Unfortunetly for us, straight people are the strong majority, so if we want them to view us as equal we need to at least partly abide by their rules first. It needs effort from both sides.

 

What I'm saying is that most of the gay man representation should consist of conventional men while still keeping the more stereotyped men on the side. Basically the opposite of what is still happening now.

 

I'm totally with you about the representation thing.  I've been banging that drum here for years as people continue question "Why does it even matter?  It's just a game?"  I totally agree that video games are actually a bit behind compared to other forms of media when it comes to LGBT representation.  Movies, TV, books, music, etc. all have much more visible and varied representation for LGBT characters than video games do.  I think Bioware is almost single handedly changing that too.

 

I think it's starting to change, though, and being anti-gay just isn't acceptable anymore, particularly in the west.  Look at the shenanigans happening in the US because of the "Indiana Religious Freedom Law".  People are really coming down on that state, with politicians banning state-funded travel to Indiana and dozens of companies instituting bans on business there.  The people who dislike gays are becoming the minority and, within a generation, most of this will be much lessened (similar to the Civil Rights movement in the 60s).  In the meantime, I think it's important that we don't take a "we have to assimilate" view.  If people want to do so, more power to them.  I say this as someone who 'passes' as straight and wanted to get married (with kids and a white picket fence and the whole package).  But I don't think we should have to do that.  I hate when I see people in our community telling others that they have to tone down who they are in order to get acceptance. 

[Walfan]

In the meantime, I think it's important that we don't take a "we have to assimilate" view.  If people want to do so, more power to them.  I say this as someone who 'passes' as straight and wanted to get married (with kids and a white picket fence and the whole package).  But I don't think we should have to do that.  I hate when I see people in our community telling others that they have to tone down who they are in order to get acceptance. 

I think you misunderstood a bit, I don't believe femme guys should change, but that they should be seen as a minority amongst gay men like they are. It'd make the acceptance of every type of gay men by straight people easier if they are led by the type that is the most like like them.

 

 

I've been banging that drum here for years as people continue question "Why does it even matter?  It's just a game?"  

"I dont have anything against gay people and some of them are my friends, but I don't want to see that in my videogames !"

[Hellion Rex]

 

What I'm saying is that most of the gay man representation should consist of conventional men while still keeping the more stereotyped men on the side. Basically the opposite of what is still happening now.

But what does that say about the men who do fall into that "stereotyped" category? Granted, the vast majority of gay men portrayed in media are more feminine. That said, we can't just shut a piece of the community due to the negative connotations that they might inspire. Keeping such people "on the side" reeks of rather exclusionary thinking.

[Hellion Rex]

I think you misunderstood a bit, I don't believe femme guys should change, but that they should be seen as a minority amongst gay men like they are. It'd make the acceptance of every type of gay men by straight people easier if they are led by the type that is the most like like them.

But can you seriously say that they are minority? Based on what statistics are you drawing that conclusion? We should not aim to have straight people only accept us group by group. We should be pushing forward towards equality together, and not putting femme people down on the side.

[daveliam]

"I dont have anything against gay people and some of them are my friends, but I don't want to see that in my videogames !"

 

Ugh.  I know, right?  I hate this line of thinking.  It's the same line that leads to "Gays shoving their sexuality down my throat" statements the moment someone identifies as gay.  "I don't understand why they make such a big deal about it!?!" in response to a guy mentioning a boyfriend or husband, ignoring that they do it all the time with their wives and girlfriends.

 

But what does that say about the men who do fall into that "stereotyped" category? Granted, the vast majority of gay men portrayed in media are more feminine. That said, we can't just shut a piece of the community due to the negative connotations that they might inspire. Keeping such people "on the side" reeks of rather exclusionary thinking.

But can you seriously say that they are minority? Based on what statistics are you drawing that conclusion? We should not aim to have straight people only accept us group by group. We should be pushing forward towards equality together, and not putting femme people down on the side.

 

Preach, elu!  Preach!

 

<cue Sister Act 2 gif of Lauren Hill>

[Hellion Rex]

Ugh.  I know, right?  I hate this line of thinking.  It's the same line that leads to "Gays shoving their sexuality down my throat" statements the moment someone identifies as gay.  "I don't understand why they make such a big deal about it!?!" in response to a guy mentioning a boyfriend or husband, ignoring that they do it all the time with their wives and girlfriends.

 

 

Preach, elu!  Preach!

 

[Walfan]

But can you seriously say that they are minority? Based on what statistics are you drawing that conclusion? We should not aim to have straight people only accept us group by group. We should be pushing forward towards equality together, and not putting femme people down on the side.

"In the United States, boys are often homosocial, and gender role performance determines social rank. While gay boys receive the same enculturation, they are less compliant, Martin Levine summarizes: "Harry (1982, 51-52), for example, found that 42 percent of his gay respondents were 'sissies' during childhood."

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Effeminacy

 

And that was back in the eighties when the prejudice was far stronger. The percentage would probably be much lower now, not to mention not every "sissy" as a child will end up one as an adult.

Even if you disregard these studies testimony is more than enough.

 

Like I said before, most people don't like feminine men. "In most cultures, effeminacy is traditionally considered a vice or a weakness indicative of other negative character traits", that means it'll be harder to push our collective rights if they stand directly in the spotlight. They can't be invisible either or they'll always be discriminated against. 

I don't think I need to remind you that pretty much the opposite is happening right now, the media portrays a majority of feminine gay men and a minority of "conventional" gay men. Do you really think that helps pushing acceptance ? Honestly having equal representation would already be a good start.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Speaking as a straight woman, what we really need to get rid of is the idea that femininity is bad. And then the idea that women have to be feminine and men have to be masculine and that you can only express your gender in one particular way.

 

(I am not what anyone would call butch - I have hair down my back and I love dresses! Yet I still manage to confuse some people by being interested in 'guy stuff' - like RPGs! -and refusing to wear make-up and not shaving my legs. Even though it's fricking 2015.)

[Walfan]

Ugh.  I know, right?  I hate this line of thinking.  It's the same line that leads to "Gays shoving their sexuality down my throat" statements the moment someone identifies as gay.  "I don't understand why they make such a big deal about it!?!" in response to a guy mentioning a boyfriend or husband, ignoring that they do it all the time with their wives and girlfriends.

"It's shoving it down my throat if I even know he is gay."

"If it's briefly mentionned they're pushing an agenda !"

"Why did they make him gay if it serves no purpose to the story ?"

"Why is it always about their sexuality ?"

 

You simply can't win.

[Walfan]

Speaking as a straight woman, what we really need to get rid of is the idea that femininity is bad. And then the idea that women have to be feminine and men have to be masculine and that you can only express your gender in one particular way.

 

(I am not what anyone would call butch - I have hair down my back and I love dresses! Yet I still manage to confuse some people by being interested in 'guy stuff' - like RPGs! -and refusing to wear make-up and not shaving my legs. Even though it's fricking 2015.)

It won't happen overnight because you want it to, that'll still take time, and pushing gay rights would make it take a big step.

Right know everyone is hurt by this, people don't like feminine men and masculine women, and it get even worse when people think that's what gay people are.

Why ? Because then they'll reject any semblance of feminity/masculinity so they're not seen as gay. Which means they'll start hating it even more. 

 

Trust me, that stereotype is bad for all of us, feminine men and masculine women included.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Calling Dorian feminine is just someone projecting their own baggage onto him.

[BabyPuncher]

It's not about throwing every femme guy in a fire pit it's about putting men that fit the norm as the central figure. Most straight men dislike feminine men, partly because they are gay and partly because they simply don't "fit" in. They usually have more feminine or reserved hobbies and as such straight men usually don't want to hang around with them. So why are some of them friends with women and not femme guys you ask ? It comes back to prejudice at this point, and the fact that men and women are still vastly different. You also have to remember that feminity is still seen as a weakness in a man.

 

That is a very clumsy and largely wrong analysis. It is certainly true that most straight men, including myself, really do not like feminine men. That has really nothing to do with 'prejudice' in any negative sense.

 

To become part of the norm we need to be seen as normal first, so yes I maintain that as long as the media keeps portraying us as first and foremost feminine, vain, depraved, whatever else, it won't happen. And video games are part of the media, as is Bioware.

 

True enough, but from what I've seen, the gay community has largely brought those stereotypes on themselves purposefully. This is the result. Obviously the 'gay community' doesn't represent every gay male, but nonetheless that's how it works.

[BabyPuncher]

Speaking as a straight woman, what we really need to get rid of is the idea that femininity is bad. And then the idea that women have to be feminine and men have to be masculine and that you can only express your gender in one particular way.

 

(I am not what anyone would call butch - I have hair down my back and I love dresses! Yet I still manage to confuse some people by being interested in 'guy stuff' - like RPGs! -and refusing to wear make-up and not shaving my legs. Even though it's fricking 2015.)

 

You're wrong. Straight men are revolted by feminine men because they value femininity as a good thing, not because they hate it as a bad thing

[Zobert]

I think you misunderstood a bit, I don't believe femme guys should change, but that they should be seen as a minority amongst gay men like they are. It'd make the acceptance of every type of gay men by straight people easier if they are led by the type that is the most like like them.

 

 

"I dont have anything against gay people and some of them are my friends, but I don't want to see that in my videogames !"

 

Why should they be seen as a minority?  Are you sure they are?  Maybe more people want to express themselves that way but fear being shut down?

 

This anti-femme thing and homophobia in general is latent misogyny.  Anything "womanly" was bad.  It was why in the ancient world when they didn't have terms like "homosexual" (that's modern) they described people by the activity and those that received (like women do) were considered unworthy while a "top" was great.

 

All this homophobia is not directed as the "they can pass for straight", but at the drag queens and femmy gays because straight males find that frightening--that their concept of masculinity can be fucked with.

[Hellion Rex]

You're wrong. Straight men are revolted by feminine men because they value femininity as a good thing, not because they hate it as a bad thing

Correction. They value femininity in women, and do hate it in men.

[BabyPuncher]

Correction. They value femininity in women, and do hate it in men.

 

Right. Exactly.

 

Although the hate is a secondary consequence. Revulsion is the primary one. Anger stems off from that.

[Steelcan]

Right. Exactly.

 

Although the hate is actually a secondary consequence. Revulsion is the primary one. Hate and anger stem off from that.

but is it heroic?

[dgcatanisiri]

Kaiden is the best M/M romance I've played in any BioWare game and I wish we could have more like him. He was masculine but sensitive. He probably turned out so well as he was originally a female-only LI. -.- though fewer in number I found that ME had the better written LGBT characters.

For DA:O modded the game to get Alistair and just head cannoned away the female pronouns in all subsequent games.

DA:I completely disappointed me when it came for gay romance options. I'm happy for people that enjoy the spectacle that is Dorian but he couldn't be further from my type. Every guy I ever was serious with was masculine (which back in the day sadly also meant closeted and I would not want to deal with that in game....). Dorian to me seems to be one of those gay best friend characters for the female lead over someone I would want to be with. How the female INquisitor felt led on by him is shocking given his demeanor.

I wish I knew how to use the buggy Bi Cullen mod as he would have been who I wanted. There are scenes that i head cannon as sexual tension (initial flirting, the scene where you comfort him about addiction where their faces are only inches apart) and I would have loved for a relationship to have started from that point. For now I still Romance Dorian but it's more my Inquisitor wanting to be in a relationship rather than truly being into him. Oh well.

 

Honestly, I kinda have similar opinions on things, particularly the subject of Alistair and Cullen (though as a console player, I have to make do with a play without an official romance and fill in the pieces through headcanon). Though with Dorian, it's less that he was written as the 'female's best friend' and more that based on his characterization, my take on his character is that he needs the Inquisitor's friendship more than he needs a romance with the Inquisitor. If he is in a relationship with the Inquisitor, I really see him as seeing that as the reason he's accepted in the Inquisition. For Dorian, a relationship with the Inquisitor is always going to let this voice in the back of his head go 'you're only tolerated here because you share the bed of the Inquisitor.' Because that was the environment that he grew up in, that this part of himself is going to be shameful and not something that can be accepted publically. Even though he's left Tevinter, he still has that cultural baggage, because that's the world and environment that he's from and he grew up in. So he's still sees his acceptance within the Inquisition hinging on the acceptance of the Inquisitor, the Herald of Andraste, the central figure of this organization that has become one of if not the most powerful elements in Southern Thedas - if this man says he accepts him into his bed, he's accepted. But he would also see that acceptance hinging on his remaining there.

 

Since Dorian's character arc hinges on his father not accepting him, on a subject that is about acceptance, based on my interpretation of his character, I just have a hard time seeing Dorian feeling fully accepted within the Inquisition if he is romanced. And that really makes me uncomfortable with romancing him. But, because I'm uncomfortable with the bondage elements of Iron Bull's romance as well, I'm left with two really unsatisfying options for me in Inquisition. Which has been my position repeatedly in BioWare games, despite having 'options.' Mass Effect 1 and 2 leave me with no options, while DAO had only Zevran, who, for all that I like his character, I don't particularly find myself attracted to. I at least do love Fenris and Kaidan (though I have my issues with the presentation from ME3, I'm still happy that the ability to romance him is there), but that's still leaving me feeling that I have to effectively 'make do' when it comes to four out of the last six games from BioWare. And I'm really TIRED of making do.

[Walfan]

Why should they be seen as a minority?  Are you sure they are?  Maybe more people want to express themselves that way but fear being shut down?

 

This anti-femme thing and homophobia in general is latent misogyny.  Anything "womanly" was bad.  It was why in the ancient world when they didn't have terms like "homosexual" (that's modern) they described people by the activity and those that received (like women do) were considered unworthy while a "top" was great.

 

All this homophobia is not directed as the "they can pass for straight", but at the drag queens and femmy gays because straight males find that frightening--that their concept of masculinity can be fucked with.

See my other post for the minority thing.

I'll add that it also pretty logical really, you develop manneurisms while doings stuff and from the people around you. Boys tend to lean towards more "masculine" hobbies and spend usually more time with their father and other boys, that's why being masculine is the norm for a man. Society also expects us to be strong, confident and all that jazz so it's another thing that pushes us that way. Our gay men brains are no different aside from the boner switch.

 

About the old world thing, it was mostly a dominance thing, taking it pretty much meant you were weaker than the other man. Men were and are expected to be strong enough to protect their family. Is it a bad thing ? I don't know. What I do know however is that the concept of what makes a man strong has greatly changed since then. We're far less stuck up about "honor" that's for sure.

[Lady Artifice]

Speaking as a straight woman, what we really need to get rid of is the idea that femininity is bad. And then the idea that women have to be feminine and men have to be masculine and that you can only express your gender in one particular way.

 

(I am not what anyone would call butch - I have hair down my back and I love dresses! Yet I still manage to confuse some people by being interested in 'guy stuff' - like RPGs! -and refusing to wear make-up and not shaving my legs. Even though it's fricking 2015.)

 

 

Oh, so much this. The general perception of gender equality, equality in general for that matter, is still in a state of flux in most media. When film and television began to portray women who could be as competent as men, the first tactic was to only do that with women who fit "masculine" behavior patterns. 

 

(tvtropes calls it Real Women Don't Wear Dresses http://tvtropes.org/...DontWearDresses )

 

The implication being, that "feminine" behavior patterns are inherently inferior. I think we're definitely reaching a more balanced place in media, however, wherein both those who are very feminine and those who aren't are portrayed as having value (at least when it comes to portrayals of women.)

 

 

For me, it definitely connects to what Daveliam was saying:

 

I don't see it as "this or that".  I see it as "this and that".

[BabyPuncher]

Oh, so much this. The general perception of gender equality, equality in general for that matter, is still in a state of flux in most media. When film and television began to portray women who could be as competent as men, the first tactic was to only do that with women who fit "masculine" behavior patterns. 

 

Mmm. Does that competence extend to violence? To killing people? Which largely dominates fiction and particularly epic fiction and video games?

 

I find it rather ridiculous when people whimper about violence and the state of the world and whatnot and then bemoan the lack of women in fiction participating in such things.

 

And as I said to you several days ago in another thread, violence is no tea party. It's not a giggle-fest of butt-kicking.

[Lady Artifice]

Mmm. Does that competence extend to violence? To killing people? Which largely dominates fiction and particularly epic fiction and video games?

 

I find it rather ridiculous when people whimper about violence and the state of the world and whatnot and then bemoan the lack of women in fiction participating in such things.

 

And as I said to you several days ago in another thread, violence is no tea party. It's not a giggle-fest of butt-kicking.

 

You said that in this thread, and who's whimpering about violence? Not I, sir. 

[Grieving Natashina]

You said that in this thread, and who's whimpering about violence? Not I, sir. 

<pops out of lurk mode>
 

Hun, you can ask Ares.  That is a poster that has rolled up new accounts a few times to dodge a ban.  Trust me, it's not worth it.  He's just going to try to sidetrack and derail the thread.  This isn't the first time he's been in here.  

 

<waves at Walfan>  Heya, welcome to one of my favorite threads on the forums!