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[Grieving Natashina]

Ah I tend to really mess up Zev's romance in most playthroughs so I forgot all about the 'I killed my girlfriend' story from him.

I wish I could forget.  It's like the guy was a walking magnet for trauma.  Thankfully he wasn't as angsty about it as some of the other LIs have been.

[carlo angelo]

I actually like this idea.  I don't see it as Blackwall's story at all, really, because while he went through a redemption story, it was all stuff that happened way prior to you getting to know him.  The idea that you bring up would be more of a Loghain type (as in, an antagonist) who eventually aligns with you and I think that has a ton of potential. 

 

I was going through some ideas way back from last year before Inquisition came out, and I had "Villain" on the list. But it's one that's so easy to get "wrong".

 

What I wrote down for some notes was that he was-

• the main villain's henchman who did all the dirty work.
• pretty much believed that if he did everything he was told from the main villain, he'd be doing something for the greater good.
• would constantly hound you because he thinks you are in the wrong.
• after being captured by your party, he's reluctant to see the faults on the side he was fighting for.
• main villain doesn't give two shits and thinks he's expendable.

And that's all I got, but I guess afterwards he goes through a series of questioning just how valid his "ends justify the means" approach he had for quite some time. The danger is, I want to avoid the whole "boo-hoo, boss left me for dead and I'm very slighted by this, now I seek revenge" schtick that so easy to fall into.

[Potato Cat]

But it could be a male Aversa instead.

I'd rather have an Anna of whatever gender.

[Grieving Natashina]

And that's all I got, but I guess afterwards he goes through a series of questioning just how valid his "ends justify the means" approach he had for quite some time. The danger is, I want to avoid the whole "boo-hoo, boss left me for dead and I'm very slighted by this, now I seek revenge" schtick that so easy to fall into.

Well, maybe instead of the revenge angle, he could focus on what his former boss did right.  Maybe also focus on how the character could improve over his former employer, rather than having anger be his driving goal.  Maybe even a crisis of identity when it comes to his personal code versus what he was taught, as he struggles to find his own path.  

 

I don't know.  I like the idea of a personal quest involving in a betrayal that results in reflection and growth over revenge.  Between the ME games and DA, I think the revenge motive has been overdone.

[carlo angelo]

Well, maybe instead of the revenge angle, he could focus on what his former boss did right.  Maybe also focus on how the character could improve over his former employer, rather than having anger be his driving goal.  Maybe even a crisis of identity when it comes to his personal code versus what he was taught, as he struggles to find his own path.  

 

I don't know.  I like the idea of a personal quest involving in a betrayal that results in reflection and growth over revenge.  Between the ME games and DA, I think the revenge motive has been overdone.

 

That sounds so much more knightly than the brute thug I had going.

 

I suppose then he still could believe in his former employer's cause, but has since found other, more "noble" means.

 

EDIT; and it would be great because then we could see a more human side to the big bad antagonist through this sort of character's eyes.

[Grieving Natashina]

That sounds so much more knightly than the brute thug I had going.

 

I suppose then he still could believe in his former employer's cause, but has since found other, more "noble" means.

 

EDIT; and it would be great because then we could see a more human side to the big bad antagonist through this sort of character's eyes.

That's what I was thinking too.   It could help give some dimension to a villain as well as avoid the revenge motive.  There is at least 5 in the ME games with party members that I can think of off the top of my head, and I'm sure I'm missing some.

 

Months of chatting with the folks in this thread have given me more of an idea of what I would personally like in a story for a KISA.  I've also been playing more "knightly" characters in DA:I and in the ME series.  My warrior in DA:I almost made me roll my eyes with how lawful good she was.  Way more forgiving than I am.  While I'm taking a break from DA, I was very goody-goody this time in ME2.  I went into ME3 with over 1500 Paragon points and only 153 Renegade points for my final save (translated into 300 Paragon and 15 Renegade for the start of ME3.)  I usually play a Paragade for ME2, but I held back this time to see the results.   I bring that up, because a lot of paragon Shepard's actions can be very KISA like, and s/he certainly can be honorable to a fault.   This is pretty obvious for me in ME3.

[Potato Cat]

That's what I was thinking too.   It could help give some dimension to a villain as well as avoid the revenge motive.  There is at least 5 in the ME games with party members alone that I can think of off the top of my head, and I'm sure I'm missing some.

 

Months of chatting with the folks in this thread have given me more of an idea of what I would personally like in a story for a KISA.  I've also been playing more "knightly" characters in DA:I and in the ME series.  My warrior in DA:I almost made me roll my eyes with how lawful good she was.  Way more forgiving than I am.  While I'm taking a break from DA, I was very goody-goody this time in ME2.  I went into ME3 with over 1500 Paragon points and 153 and only Renegade points for my final save (translated into 300 Paragon and 15 Renegade for the start of ME3.)  I bring that up, because a lot of paragon Shepard's actions can be very KISA like, and s/he certainly can be honorable to a fault.   This is pretty obvious for me in ME3.

I would quite like that. That their dedication to their morals is very much their fatal flaw.

[Grieving Natashina]

I would quite like that. That their dedication to their morals is very much their fatal flaw.

It's pretty common with the archetype, but I think it can be done well.  BioWare is usually pretty good about not making that annoying. 

[In Exile]

[Deleted in the interest of sanity. Also hugs for Nat for reminding me the thread matters, not the trolls]

[Grieving Natashina]

Exile, I agree with you but it's not worth the brain cells.  The guy has one goal: To dissect and derail the thread until it's closed.   Best to leave his creative posts alone.  

 

We've been talking about ideas for a "hero's journey" for a KISA.  Got any ideas on that front?

[Potato Cat]

It's pretty common with the archetype, but I think it can be done well.  BioWare is usually pretty good about not making that annoying. 

Really? In my experience, lawful goods are rarely punished for being so lawful good outside of things like GoT. Other alignments, yeah, but not so much lawful goods.

 

Or maybe I'm focusing on when it's the player character. One thing I disliked about the paragon/renegade system in ME was that the renegade choices were usually inferior, totally removing the whole concept of moral greyness.

[Hellion Rex]

We've been talking about ideas for a "hero's journey" for a KISA.  Got any ideas on that front?

Hmmm, it really depends on what one means by "hero". I assume that the KISA would lend more to to the idealized version of the knight. So, in that regard, I'm not entirely sure how it would unfold. For example, to go back to one of my suggestions, we go to Rivain, and we have perhaps a naval commander or some soldier in the army that has to deal with the Felicisima Armada on behalf of the monarchy. Maybe we stumble upon him or her in the midst of a naval battle that they end up losing. Maybe we help them out, and that's a way for us to get in with the Rivaini monarchy. From there, perhaps we can get the KISA to join the crew. Perhaps their personal mission might have to do with their military or naval past.

[Grieving Natashina]

Really? In my experience, lawful goods are rarely punished for being so lawful good outside of things like GoT. Other alignments, yeah, but not so much lawful goods.

 

Or maybe I'm focusing on when it's the player character. One thing I disliked about the paragon/renegade system in ME was that the renegade choices were usually inferior, totally removing the whole concept of moral greyness.

I think the best example in DA of honor being used as a fault was in Asunder.  Michel's promise to Briala, then honoring that promise which cost him the support of Celene (and saved Gaspard's life) is a good example of a LG character (at least as close as this series gets) having his honor become a serious liability in a crucial moment.  I'm sure there are other examples too that I could give, but frankly my insomnia is in overdrive so my brain is a bit fuzzy.

 

I agree mostly about the renegade options, except being a paragon can bite you in the butt later.  An example of this is letting Rana Thanoptis live.  She's working for Saren in ME1, and then working with Okeer in ME2.  If you leave her alive in both games, she snaps in ME3.  She kills a bunch of people and you lose War Assets.

 

 

[Deleted in the interest of sanity]

I could hug you.  Thank you.  

[In Exile]

Exile, I agree with you but it's not worth the brain cells.  The guy has one goal: To dissect and derail the thread until it's closed.   Best to leave his creative posts alone.  

 

We've been talking about ideas for a "hero's journey" for a KISA.  Got any ideas on that front?

 

In the interest of sanity, I agree. I'll leave the post there so yours makes sense, but you're right that I should know better.

 

I've been thinking on that front. It's hard IMO to draft an NPC that works, and I'd really like a story that has no ties with their sexuality. With the caveat that I have my own views on who ought to be a KISA (i.e., I'd prefer a bi-guy, but thoroughly masculine, to combat that particular stereotype, which I suppose the IB kind of helps with given the IB/Dorian swing, but I don't think is prominent enough) but I think I can write something neutral on gender.

 

I don't like regular knightly orders (e.g. the Chevaliers). I'd rather something more exotic or atypical. For example:

 

- Avar warrior turned Tevinter slave/gladiator.

- Ancient elven warrior, revived and joining the party.

- Tevinter [insert fictional equivalent to the Praetorian].

 

I think an interesting story for the KISA is about values. Stay true to what you believe, the ideals of the trope, or leave it behind for something else (e.g. anti-hero-esque qualities). Something tied with their past that forces them to choose between the ideals and, say, passion.

 

To me, a KISA is all about embodying a kind of ideal. And to me the interesting journey to tell in that is one of temptation. And if I were writing it (since this is an RPG and we want choice) I would have it be that without the PC, the KISA is and always will be a KISA - no help needed to be the noble hero, despite the struggle. Instead the PC can use the friendship (or romance) to lead the KISA away from that ideal. Which of course casts the unsupportive PC more in the villain temptor role, but in that regard I think the only players who would be pro-temptation anyway would cast themselves in that role.

 

But again, this is all just me.

[Hellion Rex]

 

To me, a KISA is all about embodying a kind of ideal. And to me the interesting journey to tell in that is one of temptation. And if I were writing it (since this is an RPG and we want choice) I would have it be that without the PC, the KISA is and always will be a KISA - no help needed to be the noble hero, despite the struggle. Instead the PC can use the friendship (or romance) to lead the KISA away from that ideal. Which of course casts the unsupportive PC more in the villain temptor role, but in that regard I think the only players who would be pro-temptation anyway would cast themselves in that role.

 

But again, this is all just me.

Ooooo, I like this. I think you hit the nail on the head with "temptation".

[veeia]

I would like the KISA's personal quest to be tied to the main quest of the story because I want them to feel like one of the not optional companions and since I have no idea what the main story is for da4 I have no idea.  

 

...although I say that and yet all my ideas are probably lending themselves to the "optional" characters, because I'm really not invested in the idea of the KISA having an order or status, and prefer the more "commoner" ones...like lady blacksmith, or an elven warrior who protects elves from the Chevaliers, or whatnot, hehe. 

 

A bit part of this for me is that I think one of the most interesting stories to do with an ordered KISA is the conflict of values and crisis of faith when the order they've sworn to reveals itself to be less than its ideal. Which is sort of a huge thing in DA:I and Cass's quest in particular deals with this, so it's not something that should be repeated. 

 

edit: in Exile i Just refreshed before I could post and YES, yes, a lot of yeses to your post.  

[carlo angelo]

What ideas did we have before? I was absent for a fair amount of time since Inquisition was released.

 

There was Grand Tourney Knight. What did we have for them? And then we have In Exile's post above...

 

- Avar warrior turned Tevinter slave/gladiator.

- Ancient elven warrior, revived and joining the party.

- Tevinter [insert fictional equivalent to the Praetorian].

 

Anyone feeling any urge on coming up with a backstory?

[veeia]

Although I'm a bit confused about how the last paragraph would actually function, especially in terms of a player who didnt want to tempt them. What would be the arc then? 

[In Exile]

Although I'm a bit confused about how the last paragraph would actually function, especially in terms of a player who didnt want to tempt them. What would be the arc then? 

 

The arc is their own. I don't like it that the PC is the agent of positive change in some companion's story. We actually see the reverse of the usual trope with Cass in part: she confronts a horrible truth about her Order, but in its present make-up and in its membership. Everything about it betrayed the ideals she holds dear and she value so greatly.

 

At Skyhold, she has to make a choice about the order. I think in the natural choice of things, the Cass would always make the choice to revive the Seekers and rebuild the order.

 

I'd like something structured in that way, but starker. Which is why I don't think it has to be about the order one is a part of or even about duty, but it has to be about vows and values. Say, refraining from revenge. It's a about the little choices, that shake us to the core of our being.

[Grieving Natashina]

Although I'm a bit confused about how the last paragraph would actually function, especially in terms of a player who didnt want to tempt them. What would be the arc then? 

The villain, or one of the villain's main henchmen is one of my ideas.  Since I'm going with carlo's idea, it would make a fine arc for a KISA.  I think that an antagonist (maybe a former close lover) would qualify.  

[Hellion Rex]

What ideas did we have before? I was absent for a fair amount of time since Inquisition was released.

We also had Nevarran Dragon Hunter, Rivaini Naval Commander, Lady Blacksmith....I think we also briefly spoke about a noble from the Anderfels that was protesting the Grey Warden's involvement in politics.

[daveliam]

Rock-Knocker, y'all.  Rock. Knocker.

[Grieving Natashina]

Rock-Knocker, y'all.  Rock. Knocker.

Yep, can't forget our Legion of the Dead idea either.  Right dave?