7155 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

On a more positive side I've been thinking about the nature of a KISA and what makes it appealing versus the nature of the streaky characters and what makes them appealing.

 

KISA's seem to me to generally appeal on the basis of their extreme commitment and devotion. People talk about unrealistic ideals but the KISA makes them realistic and everyone is in awe of their ability. I think the clearest instance of this is with reference to sex. On the other hand, KISAs are also notorious for being inflexible, ask the KISA to do anything else and they simply cannot adjust readily. It's like a Howitzer cannon that can fire once and the impact is tremendous but it takes a long time to aim. A person can believe that a KISA has been chaste their entire life because as crazy that is they have the mentality to pull that off.

 

Streaky characters on the other hand seem to appeal on the basis of their flexibility, so for instance the KISA is the greatest warrior in the entire world, their devotion to combat and whatever else is so profound, but they take so long making up their mind about whether to go to war or something, or if the war is suddenly declared over they don't adjust well kind of thing. Streaky characters will often take everything with a grain of salt, oh, the war is over? Well I'm also good at singing songs in the tavern! Sounds like fun!

 

On the downside their sreakiness is usually marred by insubstantial commitments, the gray character might not be the best warrior or the best singer, but he can do both which the KISA normally cannot.

[daveliam]

I guess I can think that the homosexual out there (or here in this thread) who is basically a non-gray non-promiscuous overly "noble" KISA wanting to see a character like them makes sense. I couldn't help but notice that reading between the lines most people here are more like wanting to see someone else make that character for them to "create" diversity and these kinds of reasons, not that sort of more personal motivation. Like what does "being ready for a KISA of my own," actually mean? You are yourself a homosexual KISA and want to finally have that represented or your not and curious what it might look like? That kind of thing...

 

I'm being somewhat pointed but that's partially because frankly I'm not sure how valid reasons are when disconnected from that personal motive and translated into a mere abstracts, hence all the arguing in the thread about what constitutes a KISA and stuff.

 

When I said "a KISA of my own", I mean that I would like to have a KISA available for my gay PC.  I want the KISA romance option in the next game to be available for my gay PC and, likely, will be the 'canon' romance that I select for him.  It's really not that complicated. 

 

I don't see myself as a KISA because I'm not a knight nor do I wear shining armor.  But I am a pretty "good" guy overall and would like to see that in the gay characters as well.  It's one of the reasons why I love Kaidan and Steve so much.  And Dorian too. 

[Seraphim24]

When I said "a KISA of my own", I mean that I would like to have a KISA available for my gay PC.  I want the KISA romance option in the next game to be available for my gay PC and, likely, will be the 'canon' romance that I select for him.  It's really not that complicated. 

 

I don't see myself as a KISA because I'm not a knight nor do I wear shining armor.  But I am a pretty "good" guy overall and would like to see that in the gay characters as well.  It's one of the reasons why I love Kaidan and Steve so much.  And Dorian too. 

 

Then you consider Kaidan, Steve, and Dorian KISAs?? Are we talking about magnitude or something. If not what is missing?

 

All I'm saying is there is a blatant disparity in saying we really like our characters and Dorian is great but we also really like this other character that's pretty different, that = something is wrong with Dorian and Kaidan and Steve. Rather than suggest it myself (although I suppose I already have) I'd rather just hear what that is from people.

 

Basically the OP is saying everything is perfect but we happen to want this other thing also which is kinda BS to be honest.

 

I realize this discussion was had in several contexts earlier in the thread but I don't know if anyone ever truly provided a satisfactory answer.

[Grieving Natashina]

<pops out of lurk mode>

 

I interrupt this debate in honor of Malcolm Young, who has dementia.  He can no longer remember the songs that him and his brother performed for over 40 years.  May I present two hot guys on cellos doing AC/DC's Thunderstruck.  

 

[Hellion Rex]

<pops out of lurk mode>

 

I interrupt this debate in honor of Malcolm Young, who has dementia.  He can longer remember the songs that him and his brother performed for over 40 years.  May I present two hot guys on cellos doing AC/DC's Thunderstruck.  

 

That was an absolute privilege to behold.

 

[Grieving Natashina]

That was an absolute privilege to behold.

 

I tweeted that to DG the day it was revealed that Dorian was gay.  That was a happy day for me.  

 

And I'm glad you liked it.  They've done some other covers, but that one has my favorite video.

[Hellion Rex]

I tweeted that to DG the day it was revealed that Dorian was gay.  That was a happy day for me.  

 

And I'm glad you liked it.  They've done some other covers, but that one has my favorite video.

They're both smoking as well. I do love me some hot musicians.

[Lady Artifice]

Then you consider Kaidan, Steve, and Dorian KISAs?? Are we talking about magnitude or something. If not what is missing?

 

All I'm saying is there is a blatant disparity in saying we really like our characters and Dorian is great but we also really like this other character that's pretty different, that = something is wrong with Dorian and Kaidan and Steve. Rather than suggest it myself (although I suppose I already have) I'd rather just hear what that is from people.

 

Basically the OP is saying everything is perfect but we happen to want this other thing also which is kinda BS to be honest.

 

At the very most, this thread could be construed as saying that limiting the representation of homosexual characters to just the "streaky" or the "gray" characters leaves something wanting. 

 

Saying that the request for new characters, different characters in the future must mean that fault has been found with the characters of now is not only untrue, it's also rather unfair, especially when you're denouncing OP's claim to the opposite as "B.S."

 

New characters come along either way, and there is nothing wrong with asking for a variety of either representation or options when looking forward to that happening. 

[Andraste_Reborn]

They way I look at it, it's like one table is being served chocolate pie and lemon pie, while the other table is only being served chocolate. Chocolate pie is great! Most people love chocolate pie! But if the one table is getting all the lemon pie, people at the other will naturally start asking why they can't have some too.

[daveliam]

Then you consider Kaidan, Steve, and Dorian KISAs?? Are we talking about magnitude or something. If not what is missing?

 

All I'm saying is there is a blatant disparity in saying we really like our characters and Dorian is great but we also really like this other character that's pretty different, that = something is wrong with Dorian and Kaidan and Steve. Rather than suggest it myself (although I suppose I already have) I'd rather just hear what that is from people.

 

Basically the OP is saying everything is perfect but we happen to want this other thing also which is kinda BS to be honest.

 

I realize this discussion was had in several contexts earlier in the thread but I don't know if anyone ever truly provided a satisfactory answer.

 

No, I don't think Steve or Dorian are KISA's.  I've been pretty clear about that throughout the 160+ pages of this thread.  The only m/m option who I think qualifies is Kaidan.  I'm not really sure what you aren't understanding here.  I like characters who aren't KISAs as well.  I think Steve and Dorian are both 'good' characters, which I like, but they aren't KISAs.  I would like an m/m DA romance who fits the trope because I like that type of character and there have been several of them already, but they are always straight.  That's really the extent of it.  There's no hidden meaning or goal. 

 

They way I look at it, it's like one table is being served chocolate pie and lemon pie, while the other table is only being served chocolate. Chocolate pie is great! Most people love chocolate pie! But if the one table is getting all the lemon pie, people at the other will naturally start asking why they can't have some too.

 

Exactly.  I can like chocolate pie, but I actually prefer lemon pie and it's a little frustrating to see lemon pie being served at the other table over and over while all we get is chocolate pie.  That's a great way to think of it. 

[Seraphim24]

No, I don't think Steve or Dorian are KISA's.  I've been pretty clear about that throughout the 160+ pages of this thread.  The only m/m option who I think qualifies is Kaidan.  I'm not really sure what you aren't understanding here.  I like characters who aren't KISAs as well.  I think Steve and Dorian are both 'good' characters, which I like, but they aren't KISAs.  I would like an m/m DA romance who fits the trope because I like that type of character and there have been several of them already, but they are always straight.  That's really the extent of it.  There's no hidden meaning or goal. 

 

 

Exactly.  I can like chocolate pie, but I actually prefer lemon pie and it's a little frustrating to see lemon pie being served at the other table over and over while all we get is chocolate pie.  That's a great way to think of it. 

 

I'm sorry but I've heard that analogy discussed used in several other contexts as well (also involving sexual sort of things bizarrely enough) it seems like the most polished/marketing way of saying "There's something I don't like here" but I want to try something else without actually condemning the previous thing. I think the problem is you only have one day of the week when you have a dessert, and you can't eat two desserts in the same day as you would be full, so given that you really are just going to be picking one dessert which would  you pick?

 

Incidentally I'm not suggesting that previous thing is homosexuality itself, I've always considered myself in favor of homosexuality and the marriage and such, but the character of Dorian? Or the character of Steve? I just found them annoying for the most part, not to mention yeah they were the flamboyant trope down the bone.

 

I think that's why this thread never felt right to me, I think if you gave Dorian or some yet unseen bada** KISA to people as options most people would pick the KISA.

[Lady Artifice]

I'm sorry but I've heard that analogy discussed used in several other contexts as well (also involving sexual sort of things bizarrely enough) it seems like the most polished/marketing way of saying "There's something I don't like here" but I want to try something else without actually condemning the previous thing. I think the problem is you only have one day of the week when you have a dessert, and you can't eat two desserts in the same day as you would be full, so given that you really are just going to be picking one dessert which would  you pick?

 

Incidentally I'm not suggesting that previous thing is homosexuality itself, I've always considered myself in favor of homosexuality and the marriage and such, but the character of Dorian? Or the character of Steve? I just found them annoying for the most part, not to mention yeah they were the flamboyant trope down the bone.

 

I think that's why this thread never felt right to me, I think if you gave Dorian or some yet unseen bada** KISA to people as options most people would pick the KISA.

 

Could I trouble you to further clarify this statement? 

 

It seems like you're saying that if it were a choice between Dorian, a powerful and handsome aristocratic mage, and any unknown knightly warrior LI, that you think the knightly option would win in a popularity contest, and that something about that doesn't feel right to you. Is that correct? 

[Seraphim24]

Could I trouble you to further clarify this statement? 

 

It seems like you're saying that if it were a choice between Dorian, a powerful and handsome aristocratic mage, and any unknown knightly warrior LI, that you think the knightly option would win in a popularity contest, and that something about that doesn't feel right to you. Is that correct? 

 

First of all..... I don't know about that mustache.

 

Second, is he powerful? He seems sort of high strung and prone to erratic behavior, as well as breaking down and letting emotions rule his decisions. Again, not a problem with homosexuality per se, but I would of been more of a fan of character that could of just compromised on the heir thing and still been the way that he was.

 

The KISA you tend to expect a kind of stalwart bada**ness, so yeah, my guess is he/she would win in a popularity contest. Can you imagine a KISA who gets hung up on his parent's opinion like a stubborn 16 year old? Can you imagine him wielding the flaming sword of justice and stopping and going "My Dad doesn't get me and pushes unreasonable expectations on me?" Neither can I.

[carlo angelo]

So, at the moment, I'm getting that, in short, this thread is "unnecessary" (for lack of a better word) because if this knight were to exist in game, people would have to choose one type or the other? As in, between Dorian, Iron Bull, Fenris, et al. OR the knights?

 

Who said that we had to choose to like only one? It'll be nice to have a knight in shining armour character who's incidentally homosexual/bisexual, but we're not saying, in the same breath, that we'd scrap characters like Dorian.

 

If you're referring to the fact that during a first playthrough, you have to pick one or the other as a romance option (a fair question, I might add), here's the thing:

 

A lot of LGBT+ people play Dragon Age games. > A portion of those frequent this forum. > A portion of that portion mainly frequent this thread (as there's some mainstays here I recognise as frequent posters).

 

You can probably safely say that those who do not participate in this thread would probably pick Dorian over the Knight, as they probably have little interest in this type of character. In that same token, having to pick a first playthrough romance, for those of us who are here (and it might not be all of us who frequent this thread), they'd would probably pick the Knight. But picking one over the other for a first romance does not mean we dislike the one we didn't pick.

 

We can still appreciate them as characters. And who's to say we cannot do multiple playthroughs?

 

Besides, if Dorian and this Knight were to exist in the same game (on that note, the female equivalents of those sorts of characters) and they're both romanceable to player-protagonists of the same gender? Yeah, we'd probably be pretty beside ourselves.

 

And we're only going on about the mere concepts of these characters. This doesn't take into account how these characters would be written and delivered, which is pretty major component as well.

[Seraphim24]

So, at the moment, I'm getting that, in short, this thread is "unnecessary" (for lack of a better word) because if this knight were to exist in game, people would have to choose one type or the other? As in, between Dorian, Iron Bull, Fenris, et al. OR the knights?

 

Who said that we had to choose to like only one? It'll be nice to have a knight in shining armour character who's incidentally homosexual/bisexual, but we're not saying, in the same breath, that we'd scrap characters like Dorian.

 

If you're referring to the fact that during a first playthrough, you have to pick one or the other as a romance option (a fair question, I might add), here's the thing:

 

A lot of LGBT+ people play Dragon Age games. > A portion of those frequent this forum. > A portion of that portion mainly frequent this thread (as there's some mainstays here I recognise as frequent posters).

 

You can probably safely say that who do not participate in this thread would probably pick Dorian over the Knight, as they probably have little interest in this type of character. In that same token, having to pick a first playthrough romance, for those of us who are here (and it might not be all of us who frequent this thread), they'd would probably pick the Knight. But picking one over the other for a first romance does not mean we dislike the one we didn't pick.

 

I disagree that many (if any) people would pick Dorian over the Knight, Dorian is pretty annoying all things considered. You wrote a lot about choices and possibilities and next to nothing about Dorian's character and potential issues.

 

I'm sorry but "picking one over the other" absolutely means we dislike the one we didn't pick.

[carlo angelo]

I never said "have to choose" I said "want to choose." Look, theoretically, on any given Saturday, you can go and play ME4 or whatever and have sex.

 

Also I disagree that people would pick Dorian over the Knight, Dorian is pretty annoying all things considered.

 

But how you phrased your posts, you're talking as if people have to choose.

 

You don't speak for the people, sorry to say.

[Seraphim24]

But how you phrased your posts, you're talking as if people have to choose.

 

You don't speak for the people, sorry to say.

 

You don't have to choose, but you have to choose between not choosing and choosing yes?

 

That still amounts to choice, the decision to forego a hard decision.

 

And yes I am going to speak for people because if there were a stereotypically bada** KISA vs a Dorian clone "the people" would pick the KISA.

[carlo angelo]

...We're still talking about first playthrough romances, right?

 

Because I don't think "choice" matters if we're talking in general.

[Seraphim24]

...We're still talking about first playthrough romances, right?

 

Because I don't think "choice" matters if we're talking in general.

 

People always pick the character they like most for the first playthrough, I mean that much is true. Even though the other characters aren't real I would think it's safe to say they are treated as sloppy seconds in the pie analogy.

 

In the situation you can have both characters in one playthrough, it amounts to saying I like you but there is some other stuff this other person has that you don't have that I also like.

 

In the situation where it's just one it's I like this other one a little more so I'm going to go with them first, but eventually I'll get to you.

[carlo angelo]

People always pick the character they like most for the first playthrough, I mean that much is true. Even though the other characters aren't real I would think it's safe to say they are treated as sloppy seconds in the pie analogy.

 

That's a pretty bad analogy and a lot of people don't think or play like you do.

 

Having favourites doesn't exclude liking and appreciating other characters.

[Seraphim24]

That's a pretty bad analogy and a lot of people don't think or play like you do.

 

Having favourites and treating other characters like "sloppy seconds" isn't mutally exclusive.

 

It totally is though, at least to some degree. Maybe you like one slightly less, or marginally less, but less. Back to the pie analogy I probably prefer lemon or apple on at least some microscopic scale (if not more vast scale). Some people never ever drink soda, etc, etc. This isn't what we're talking about that seems to me to be the inherent flaw with polyamory, etc.

 

Besides saying a lot of people don't think or play like you do is argumentum ad populum (which I just used wikipedia for I'm not going to claim I knew the phrase for that )

[Lady Artifice]

There are a lot of Dorian fans in this very thread, he has a significant fan base. One person's opinion of him doesn't define his popularity. Besides, plenty of people find KISA types boring, and prefer grayer characters by default. See the contrast between Batman and Superman, for example. 

 

What I don't understand is what difference you think it makes. Why one supposedly being more popular than the other makes this thread not "feel right for you."

[carlo angelo]

It totally is though, at least to some degree. Maybe you like one slightly less, or marginally less, but less. Back to the pie analogy I probably prefer lemon or apple on at least some microscopic scale (if not more vast scale). Some people never ever drink soda, etc, etc. This isn't what we're talking about that seems to me to be the inherent flaw with polyamory, etc.

 

Besides saying a lot of people don't think or play like you do is argumentum ad populum (which I just used wikipedia for I'm not going to claim I knew the phrase for that )

 

Then what's the point you're trying to make in the first place? Because people here have said time and again that first playthrough romances doesn't negate other characters. It may to you, but a lot of commenters here don't see it that way, and if you're here to change a few minds, well, good luck.

[Seraphim24]

There are a lot of Dorian fans in this very thread, he has a significant fan base. One person's opinion of him doesn't define his popularity. Besides, plenty of people find KISA types boring, and prefer grayer characters by default. See the contrast between Batman and Superman, for example. 

 

What I don't understand is what difference you think it makes. Why one supposedly being more popular than the other makes this thread not "feel right for you."

 

The thing that doesn't feel right is how you can say with a straight face that Dorian is a perfect character but we're specifically requesting a different character. It's almost like, I was married to X and it was perfect and they're perfect, now we're divorced.

 

Then what's the point you're trying to make in the first place? Because people here have said time and again that first playthrough romances doesn't negate other characters. It may to you, but a lot of commenters here don't see it that way, and if you're here to change a few minds, well, good luck.

 

People can say what they want, doesn't mean I have to believe them. I'm not really here to change minds or anything, I think it's more to see if anyone actually agrees with it.

[carlo angelo]

The thing that doesn't feel right is how you can say with a straight face that Dorian is a perfect character but we're specifically requesting a different character.

 

Because people can't like the idea of a different type of character whilst already appreciating an existing character in the game.