Are there games where you can play a gay character from start to finish, and unlike DAO for example, the game is intended to be played as a gay character from its perception?
Oh the top of my head, no, and that's why these games have such a big queer following. Everyone else ignores us or regulates us to minor characters who are neutered and easy to ignore or walking stereotypes that are easier to digest.
There are and will be games with predetermined protagonists (that you play as) who are gay. As of right now, they are indie and just aren't that well known.
To try to answer your question, I guess because a story with a homosexual main character is more difficult to tell. I guess what makes it more difficult to tell is the risk of it being misinterpreted by a large part of the audience as being a story about homosexuality. In that regard, I really liked the film "The Talanted Mr. Ripley", (haven't read the book), and I think it was an example of a well-told story where the main character was gay.
I believe the solution then is to have more stories with gay characters. Not less. That way, the general audience can start to see that gay characters can be relatable too. And not just as 'other.'
Are you asking if there are any games with a predetermined protagonist that is gay?
Yes, that was my question. I would be very interested in playing such a game, why not. I want to see if it would be all that different from playing a game with a straight main character. Another question, do you think a story can ever be properly told from a gay character's perspective by a straight author?
Actually, a character's heterosexuality often drives the entire plot, not just a romantic plot.
How many games, books, and movies feature a male protag trying to save their wife/girlfriend/ or a princess figure?
Yes, and that's how it has been since the Illiad. But your question, which I thought on was why not use homosexuality to drive a plot. And I said what I think the reason is. What do you think it is?
Confession time: I'm a gay transman who is eagerly hoping to meet a decent guy and become a father. For me, to see a knight or ranger type (Helloooo, Aragorn!) of guy, who just happens to be gay - yet talks about a future - kids, house, pet dragon...I would be elated.
This thread is awesome.
I believe the solution then is to have more stories with gay characters. Not less. That way, the general audience can start to see that gay characters can be relatable too. And not just 'other.'
The solution to what? To the problem of there not being enough stories with gay characters?
There are and will be games with predetermined protagonists (that you play as) who are gay. As of right now, they are indie and just aren't that well known.
I would like to see such a game and see if it's good. Good as a game, not as a gay manifest though.
Yes, that was my question. I would be very interested in playing such a game, why not. I want to see if it would be all that different from playing a game with a straight main character. Another question, do you think a story can ever be properly told from a gay character's perspective by a straight author?
Of course I do. An author doesn't have to have first hand experience to write a compelling character.
Could a gay author write a more compelling gay character? Possibly, given that they can draw upon personal experiences to flesh out the character. But it doesn't mean that a straight author can't write a gay character. They just need to be open to other perspectives and write a character that isn't just a stereotype.
The solution to what? To the problem of there not being enough stories with gay characters?
No. To the problem that you posed. You said that stories with gay main characters would be difficult for the audience to relate to. They would see it as a story about homosexuality as opposed to a love story or an action story, or whatever. This is because there are so few gay characters who are relevant in media, so it is seen as 'other,' or 'different.'
With more exposure comes familiarity.
People will then be less likely to fixate on a character's 'gayness' and see the bigger themes, like love, friendship, saving the world, etc. You know, themes that 'straight' stories are all about.
Of course I do. An author doesn't have to have first hand experience to write a compelling character.
Could a gay author write a more compelling gay character? Possibly, given that they can draw upon personal experiences to flesh out the character. But it doesn't mean that a straight author can't write a gay character. They just need to be open to other perspectives and write a character that isn't just a stereotype.
I also think it would be possible, just like it's possible for a man to write a believable female character, although the author should have really good knowledge of the subject matter in addition to being a good author. Hm, I guess that's the main reason there are not enough stories with gay main characters - gay authors, like gay people in general are a minority, and for the rest of the authors, it's either not an interesting subject, or too difficult, or both.
No. To the problem that you posed. You said that stories with gay main characters would be difficult for the audience to relate to. They would see it as a story about homosexuality as opposed to a love story. This is because there are so few gay characters who are relevant in media, so it is seen as 'other,' or 'different.'
With more exposure comes familiarity.
Exactly. And, too often, gay characters ARE defined by their sexuality. Historically, it's been rare to see characters that are gay, but have other compelling aspects of their character. I think that this is the entire reason why this conversation is even happening. We are asking for a KISA character (of which there have been numerous in the DA universe), but because we are asking for him to be gay, it's been received as asking for a "gay character" versus asking for a KISA character who happens to be gay.
No. To the problem that you posed. You said that stories with gay main characters would be difficult for the audience to relate to. They would see it as a story about homosexuality as opposed to a love story. This is because there are so few gay characters who are relevant in media, so it is seen as 'other,' or 'different.'
With more exposure comes familiarity.
It's good that I asked, because I would have misunderstood you.
Exposure would bring familiarity, but I'm not sure if with familiarity would come interest in the subject. Men don't feel particularly interested in experiencing content (be that films, literature or whatnot) that has been targeted at women.
The solution to what? To the problem of there not being enough stories with gay characters?
I would like to see such a game and see if it's good. Good as a game, not as a gay manifest though.
Whether the game is good or not would have nothing whatsoever to do with whether the main characters are gay or not.
I also think it would be possible, just like it's possible for a man to write a believable female character, although the author should have really good knowledge of the subject matter in addition to being a good author. Hm, I guess that's the main reason there are not enough stories with gay main characters - gay authors, like gay people in general are a minority, and for the rest of the authors, it's either not an interesting subject, or too difficult, or both.
I would hazard to say that the reluctance on the part of publishers, out of fear of backlash, has more to do with it than the subject being uninteresting or difficult. Most people are interested in a good story, regardless of whether it directly reflects their own lives.
It's good that I asked, because I would have misunderstood you.
Exposure would bring familiarity, but I'm not sure if with familiarity would come interest in the subject. Men don't feel particularly interested in experiencing content (be that films, literature or whatnot) that has been targeted at women.
With exposure comes familiarity, with familiarity comes acceptance. With acceptance (on a larger cultural level), (straight)men would be less likely to be averse to enjoying media with a gay male protagonist. An action story with gay characters need not depict graphic sex, which is what you seem to be getting at here.
Whether the game is good or not would have nothing whatsoever to do with whether the main characters are gay or not.
I agree with you, but I already saw an example of a person who said that the presence of a gay character is reason enough for him to consider the game better.
I agree with you, but I already saw an example of a person who said that the presence of a gay character is reason enough for him to consider the game better.
Well since this is clearly a passive aggressive reference to me, I'll answer directly since I'm not the third person talking type.
Yes, a gay character in a game will make a game better for me because I enjoy seeing my favorite medium (gaming) telling stories that I can personally relate to. A bad game can be made better (not necessarily good, but better) and a good game can be made better for me. I would not say that a bad game would be good simply because of a gay character.
So please just make sure that you don't misrepresent my words. Lady Nuggins' comment was about if a game was good. I never said that a gay character alone makes a game good. That is an important distinction.
With exposure comes familiarity, with familiarity comes acceptance. With acceptance (on a larger cultural level), (straight)men would be less likely to be averse to enjoying media with a gay male protagonist. An action story with gay characters need not depict graphic sex, which is what you seem to be getting at here.
Hm, no actually, I didn't have sex in mind at all. I just looked for an example that disproves your hypothesis. Women have a lot of coverage, but this hasn't provoked interest among men in how the world looks from a woman's perspective. Of course, this isn't exact science and the effect of increasing exposure of gay-directed content may have different effects.
If the lack of parity in the amount of media content is a source of frustration for you, because that's my impression, I don't think such parity would ever be reached, outside of a totalitarian society where quotas on media production are enforced somehow 
As long as gay people are a minority, it will be the majority's obligation to protect the minority (anyone who argues against that shouldn't even be allowed to partake in a conversation), but the minority can never out-produce the majority in terms of quantity of content. At least I can't imagine a believable set of circumstances in which this would happen.
I agree with you, but I already saw an example of a person who said that the presence of a gay character is reason enough for him to consider the game better.
It's a multifaceted issue. A game could have a good story, good characterization, and good gameplay, but bad representation/diversity, for instance - it need not excel on all fronts to be considered "good". The presence of positive LGBTQ+ characters would increase the quality of the game in regards to representation/diversity, but it's independent of the other aspects of the game, like story and gameplay.
Well since this is clearly a passive aggressive reference to me, I'll answer directly since I'm not the third person talking type.
Yes, a gay character in a game will make a game better for me because I enjoy seeing my favorite medium (gaming) telling stories that I can personally relate to. A bad game can be made better (not necessarily good, but better) and a good game can be made better for me. I would not say that a bad game would be good simply because of a gay character.
So please just make sure that you don't misrepresent my words. Lady Nuggins' comment was about if a game was good. I never said that a gay character alone makes a game good. That is an important distinction.
It's not a passive (or active) agressive reference, I was just too lazy to look up your post, and for my argument it wasn't that important who in particular had said what I quoted. And I have nothing against your reasoning. As far as I'm concerned, you can base your approval or disapproval of a game on whatever quality of this game you prefer, of course.
Also, please note that I have quoted you correctly: "reason enough to consider the game better". Not just "good". 
I also think it would be possible, just like it's possible for a man to write a believable female character, although the author should have really good knowledge of the subject matter in addition to being a good author. Hm, I guess that's the main reason there are not enough stories with gay main characters - gay authors, like gay people in general are a minority, and for the rest of the authors, it's either not an interesting subject, or too difficult, or both.
Actually, I can't speak for all genres, but in children's and young adult publishing, books with gay characters are routinely turned away, along with books with characters of color as protagonists, and this is a huge problem in the industry... a good person to follow is Malinda Lo, author if Ash and Huntress (gay Cinderella story). She had an awesome blog post about the number of YA books with gay characters in them awhile back. Then there was another report from a pair of YA authors who were asked by the publisher to change the gender of a gay main character, and they refused, and there was a huge struggle to get the book published. And these were established authors.
Also, when polled, young readers, especially queer young readers, desperately want books featuring LGBT main characters, especially books where "being gay" isn't the big issue; they want gay knights and lesbian warriors fighting dragons and so forth.
Hm, no actually, I didn't have sex in mind at all. I just looked for an example that disproves your hypothesis. Women have a lot of coverage, but this hasn't provoked interest among men in how the world looks from a woman's perspective. Of course, this isn't exact science and the effect of increasing exposure of gay-directed content may have different effects.
If the lack of parity in the amount of media content is a source of frustration for you, because that's my impression, I don't think such parity would ever be reached, outside of a totalitarian society where quotas on media production are enforced somehow
I think that this conversation is getting away from the topic of the thread. The DA games have always have gay and bisexual characters in them. I'm sure that this trend will continue. And since that's the case, then we're talking about a particular story told from the perspective of a gay character, since they will certainly be included.
That's really where the conversation should be focused before it goes off on a tangent that isn't productive.
It's a multifaceted issue. A game could have a good story, good characterization, and good gameplay, but bad representation/diversity, for instance - it need not excel on all fronts to be considered "good". The presence of positive LGBTQ+ characters would increase the quality of the game in regards to representation/diversity, but it's independent of the other aspects of the game, like story and gameplay.
Right. And at this point a game that forces me to play a straight male hero has to be bloody brilliant for me to spend my hard-earned money on it.
Hm, no actually, I didn't have sex in mind at all. I just looked for an example that disproves your hypothesis. Women have a lot of coverage, but this hasn't provoked interest among men in how the world looks from a woman's perspective. Of course, this isn't exact science and the effect of increasing exposure of gay-directed content may have different effects.
If the lack of parity in the amount of media content is a source of frustration for you, because that's my impression, I don't think such parity would ever be reached, outside of a totalitarian society where quotas on media production are enforced somehow
We are just asking for more than what we have now, which is not much, and not more than straight people.
At any rate, this line of conversation has become very broad, encompassing themes that don't have all that much to do with the much more specific request of this thread.
Still nice to debate, though.
Back to the topic on hand... we're basically talking about Blackwall and Cullen for DAI. I think I would have been more upset if Cullen had been the original straight LI and Blackwall had been added later as an additional straight LI... but seeing as how it went the other way, I am a little more understanding, since with Cullen it is previously established that he definitely likes women, and he likes humans AND elves. So making him gay was not possible, and making him bi would have included two more height differences to attend with + bringing in the VAs.
What I'm kind of not okay with is then adding Solas as straight female elf only; he's not a KISA, but I think it would been fairer if he had been male elf only instead of female only. I mean, if time and money are the only issues at hand here. (And I would also be advocating for adding a second lesbian LI but it's been stated that Vivienne isn't available for story reasons.)
Back to the topic on hand... we're basically talking about Blackwall and Cullen for DAI. I think I would have been more upset if Cullen had been the original straight LI and Blackwall had been added later as an additional straight LI... but seeing as how it went the other way, I am a little more understanding, since with Cullen it is previously established that he definitely likes women, and he likes humans AND elves. So making him gay was not possible, and making him bi would have included two more height differences to attend with + bringing in the VAs.
What I'm kind of not okay with is then adding Solas as straight female elf only; he's not a KISA, but I think it would been fairer if he had been male elf only instead of female only. I mean, if time and money are the only issues at hand here. (And I would also be advocating for adding a second lesbian LI but it's been stated that Vivienne isn't available for story reasons.)
I agree with the Cullen and Blackwall thing. I really think that Blackwall would have been great, but I totally understand the Cullen thing. It's one of the things that prompted me to bring up the KISA thing in another thread before this one was here. It was disappointing to see not only one, but two KISA characters and neither are open for m/m romances.
The Solas thing is disappointing, but I'm willing to wait to see what the reasoning is for his gating. Because he has a lot of gating (against one gender and three races, more than any other character), so it will be interesting to see what's up with that.
Actually, I can't speak for all genres, but in children's and young adult publishing, books with gay characters are routinely turned away, along with books with characters of color as protagonists, and this is a huge problem in the industry... a good person to follow is Malinda Lo, author if Ash and Huntress (gay Cinderella story). She had an awesome blog post about the number of YA books with gay characters in them awhile back. Then there was another report from a pair of YA authors who were asked by the publisher to change the gender of a gay main character, and they refused, and there was a huge struggle to get the book published. And these were established authors.
Also, when polled, young readers, especially queer young readers, desperately want books featuring LGBT main characters, especially books where "being gay" isn't the big issue; they want gay knights and lesbian warriors fighting dragons and so forth.
I think that this conversation is getting away from the topic of the thread. The DA games have always have gay and bisexual characters in them. I'm sure that this trend will continue. And since that's the case, then we're talking about a particular story told from the perspective of a gay character, since they will certainly be included.
That's really where the conversation should be focused before it goes off on a tangent that isn't productive.
I agree we diverged from the subject a lot, like sandalisthemaker also pointed out, but better to establish a common language than work with assumptions about the other side.
I believe market works equally for everyone, and the supply will always meet the demand. If there is a demand for gay knights, they will inevitably appear. If some crazy people go on a crusade (pun not intended) against the gay knights, I wouldn't support these people. But it doesn't seem ok to me when people demand from an author to adapt his work in order to fit what they want to experience. In my view he is the author, and he has the message he wants to express, and we are the audience. If someone wants to be an author then let him, but trying to dictate to an author is bad taste.
I'll try to use myself as an example. I'm a historian by education. Currently, I feel an extremely strong urge to read fiction based in late 15th century Italy. In this I represent an immensely smaller minority audience than gay audience. I recognize that and I don't feel angry over it. I don't demand from anyone to make a game or a film, or a book that fits my interests. That's the analogy I make.
Retour en haut