7132 réponses à ce sujet

[Andraste_Reborn]

It might help if you familiarized yourself with the examples I've given you, rather than put it on me to find yet more examples with which you are familiar.

 

I'm familiar with Satele, so now that I have an example I actually understand ... if your point is that I'm excluding canonically straight characters from the ranks of gay KISAs, then: yes. Yes, that certainly is what I am doing. I mean, I guess Satele could hypothetically be bisexual - most fictional people could be - but there's no evidence that I'm aware of. We can probably rule out her being a lesbian. (Sure, lesbians are known to have sex with dudes for various reasons, but they don't generally fall in love with them and have scandalous affairs that go against the Jedi code.)

 

I've written a lot of slash fanfic about characters that (IMHO) could hypothetically be gay or bi even though that's never explicitly stated in the source material, but I'm not going to count them as LGBT representation.

[Lady Artifice]

Kefka at it again?

 

With a vengeance. 

[Lady Artifice]

Indeed, that's what I said, not what Andraste said, however using Andraste's structure to create a kind of close paralell, but not to identify the source.

 

I also did it in the second sentence by the way.

 

You like Dragon's Dogma right? Well lets take Mercedes from DD as well! 

 

 

Once again sort of pragmatic KISA.

 

Heck lets just take Meredith pre-Idol I mean why not!

 

 

 

In her case, she is certainly sort of pragmatic and gray, more on the pragmatic and gray aside compared to Shan but you can sense very faint traces of like that a take no prisoners attitude as well.

 

See what I mean? The limitations on "person needs to kiss X, tell X they think they're cute," as pertains to sexual activities are severely limiting and warping the understandings of people and relationships with those sexual acts such that people are tossed about and end up in the exact opposite place you would expect to find them.

 

By the way this is an inverse sword, you can see that right? Look at a person who identifies as mostly pretty much just not anything, maybe just has sex mostly with their male partner as a female, but then there is the one time, the one time almost as joke they go "Hey I think this other girls cute and I'm going to tell her that and kiss her,"

 

This is inverting the people who play at one thing with the people that actually are by setting a flimsy trigger to go between the two.

 

Are we going to call a porn star that kissed girls twice for the money and says it as part of a scene that she was paid to do and who normally isn't gay at all and puts a toy knight porn star prop hat on her head in a brothel in ME or DA and calls herself a knight a gay KISA? No! Of course not.

 

And yes I edited my comment a lot but Dragon's Dogma is kind of cool and so logically must be the players. 

 

Okay. I appreciate the effort you're making to reply to me as much as you have been over the past few days and to be friendly, but it's very clear that we have some fundamental disagreements about basically everything, from how to apply logic, to how to debate that logic, to how to interpret story and characters. I avoid responding back most of the time, because I've come come to anticipate an argument when I do, and I don't actually participate in this forum primarily to argue.

 

If you want to talk with me on that note, feel welcome to send me a pm, but it's generally better that we don't discuss too much in this thread, because I'd rather contribute here in a very positive tone. 

[carlo angelo]

We've ran out of things to talk about, methinks.

 

What else could we say that hasn't been covered in the past 198 pages?

 

I mean, for a pretty basic character concept (but non-heterosexual), we've pretty much just ran every which way with it. I've just been sitting back and reading, and it's like the topics have been stretched thin. At this point, I don't have anything now to say that's new to this.

[vbibbi]

Well, discussion from the FO4 players has raised an interesting question for me. Apologies if this has already been discussed in the thread, but I ain't reading through all 199 pages to check.

 

KISA has both positive and negative associations to it, depending on whom you ask. While they can be the righteous, chivalric champions of a cause, they can also be narrow-minded in their views, classist (I think most KISA's come from a background of privilege of some type, as it requires resources to have access to the standard "knight" lifestyle, even if the character isn't technically a knight), and have other less than desirable attributes. It's especially an issue for gay/bi KISA's, as we are applying modern societal values on a potential romance partner but the culture and values in DA are not going to line up exactly with ours.

 

Take Dorian, who is an all around good guy, especially for a Tevinter (soon to be) Magister. But his family owns slaves and he doesn't seem to have any great interest in freeing them or reforming the system of slavery in Tevinter. He is realistic for his society, but for the players, it's distasteful for a romance partner to own slaves. Most people seem to downplay or ignore this, that I've seen on the boards, but it is a less than desireable quality in a partner.

 

So with FO4 (which I have not played) I've read that some of the KISA types are a bit inflexible in their views and can be prejudiced. Correct me if I'm wrong. So what are people wanting/expecting if we do get a KISA in DA4? Someone with realistic contemporary views of their society, or a proxy for modern Western ideals who wants to bring Thedas into the twenty first century?

 

I wouldn't mind someone with significant flaws who tries to do the right thing but still comes into conflict with the player's opinions. Maybe someone like Anomen, except dial down the annoying whining and immaturity by 100. Someone who battles internally with what they believe is right and what society wants them to do.

[Potato Cat]

Well, discussion from the FO4 players has raised an interesting question for me. Apologies if this has already been discussed in the thread, but I ain't reading through all 199 pages to check.

 

KISA has both positive and negative associations to it, depending on whom you ask. While they can be the righteous, chivalric champions of a cause, they can also be narrow-minded in their views, classist (I think most KISA's come from a background of privilege of some type, as it requires resources to have access to the standard "knight" lifestyle, even if the character isn't technically a knight), and have other less than desirable attributes. It's especially an issue for gay/bi KISA's, as we are applying modern societal values on a potential romance partner but the culture and values in DA are not going to line up exactly with ours.

 

Take Dorian, who is an all around good guy, especially for a Tevinter (soon to be) Magister. But his family owns slaves and he doesn't seem to have any great interest in freeing them or reforming the system of slavery in Tevinter. He is realistic for his society, but for the players, it's distasteful for a romance partner to own slaves. Most people seem to downplay or ignore this, that I've seen on the boards, but it is a less than desireable quality in a partner.

 

So with FO4 (which I have not played) I've read that some of the KISA types are a bit inflexible in their views and can be prejudiced. Correct me if I'm wrong. So what are people wanting/expecting if we do get a KISA in DA4? Someone with realistic contemporary views of their society, or a proxy for modern Western ideals who wants to bring Thedas into the twenty first century?

 

I wouldn't mind someone with significant flaws who tries to do the right thing but still comes into conflict with the player's opinions. Maybe someone like Anomen, except dial down the annoying whining and immaturity by 100. Someone who battles internally with what they believe is right and what society wants them to do.

I like flaws in my characters. It's characters that openly wear their flaws on the sleeve and are written fully embracing this that I love, (whether or not I also like these characters as people). I like that Dorian owned slaves and was relatively alright with it. Before the game came out, I openly stated I would be disappointed if he didn't. Where I was disappointed was that there wasn't an option make as big a deal of it as I wanted. I do kind of feel people brush his slavery apologist BS aside, but to be fair, the game is just as guilty of this. At least, in my opinion.

 

We also saw Maevaris (semi)defending slavery in the comics. That was something I appreciated about her as a character and not her as a person. I hope this continues, and that come DA4, the Lucerni are not suddenly anti-slavery and it's also something that can be brought up properly.

 

And it's something I want to see in the hypothetical KISA. I want the flaws. And I also want to properly address them.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Personally, I want a character like the straight KISAs we've had. Alistair, Aveline, Cassandra, Cullen and Blackwall all have plenty of flaws, and I'd expect a gay KISA to be the same.

[Seraphim24]

As far as I can tell the problem is that you're flagging anyone you see as exhibiting generally atypical behavior as also likely to exhibit what I guess you consider atypical sexual behavior. Which is really, just flat our wrong.

 

Kefka at it again?

 

Tell you what, I conceptualized the issues as I saw this them here, and I can just tell you that anything that views sexuality and how it relates to characters and in media here is fundamentally flawed by this particular issue. It just is, I'd rather not drone on about it and go into more positive tones, but it's really just like, a big problem, don't get mad at the messenger here.

 

Especially if all I'm getting is vitriol in return. If you just want your thread to be narrowly about these certain issues and certain characters and have it be peppy and what not so be it, I can treat it as such and in all probability gravitate elsewhere, unless I can find a way to just be peppy, which is possibly possible. 

 

I don't like having discussions constrained or making it seem like people are constrained in what they can say and view, or that there is a clear hierarchy or agreed upon rules especially if one of those rules or core concepts is, as I say, pretty problematic for whatever I at least perceive you trying to accomplish. Again, not personal, don't waste your time trying to "prove" me wrong or something.

 

The essence of the idea is that many people currently feel trapped between having to play the "straight" game or alternatively joining like a different group with their own sets of rules and regulations that you must follow, whether that's the gay community, the bisexual community, the transgender community, the gay KISA community. the BDSM community, whatever it is, there are always all these rules, and a lot of the time, set in place by people who have virtually no real stake or interest in the matter, or, at times (not always), set by those deeply embittered by their life's experience and not really interested in helping other people navigate whatever these channels are but simply taking advantage of them, or perhaps pushing them further away from their original course.

 

In fact, I've had people message me that exact point, to the T, this unwillingness to really get behind all these people and their discussions of sexuality for this or that reason, but you don't really see those voices being very vocal because they just keep drifting.

 

The reality is that's just replacing one set of problems with another, a lot of the time when you just have a different kind of a group. Moreover, there really is just one community, the community of the human race, or even of all living things, but this tends for most people to imply a hierarchy and thus we get the supposed diversity of competing groups which is in fact highly favorable to one group (the group that favors labeling, oftentimes the hyper "straight" community). It's not diversity, it's divide and conquer.

 

I can gurantee there are people reading this thread for example that have lusted after the same sex or whatever but aren't sure what to make of it because you have the straight agenda people telling them they're weird or the same-sex people telling them have to be gay for life or it doesn't count or something, and rather than provide a serious alternative, this thread is really just congealing around yet another set of rules and regulations, which tends to hope and strain that people will eventually follow them in their brand of sex to compete with other brands or something. It's a huge mess and I'm just saying if you want to step in and solve that this is going to be sticking point.

 

I'm not saying you can't have a place to  merry and cheery, or to connect about a certain subject matter, I'm just saying, your kind of ceiling will in all probability be ultimately constrained by this point in particular, above all others. My interest isn't in being the progenitor of these ideas or groups or ideals or whatever for the most part, but simply to point out that there is a difference between that and wearing the crown of the social justice warrior, which is a much heavier burden.

 

The reality is many of these issues regarding sex are related to other issues which are much broader and interweave with as I say media and so on. There's also just you know, females that are uncomfortable being dominant in relationships, males uncomfortable being submissive, there's people who are pressured into being sexual when they would rather be virginal, there's also people who are thinly just desiring to binge in total sexual chaos. There's people who screw everything under the sun and lie about being typical, there's people who feel like they are aggressively polyamorous people when in reality they have far less sex with far fewer people than many of these super "straight" types. There's polyamorous people that actually do have tons of sex with all kinds of people. There's people who identify as bisexual but really are just kind of interested in trying some other kind of power control activity or something.  There's people who misinterpret the nature of objectification.. and in the middle of it all you really have are people who tell you this must be this way or that way or the other way.

 

That's in all probability the less time I'll be seriously addressing the point though, obviously there's only so many times you can go at something before it starts to become clear there isn't much point in continuing the discussion. So you don't really need to worry about that kind of thing probably anymore is my best guess.

 

Honestly I myself would rather just talk about how cool Satele Shan is, and there's other places and ways to do that. And if you guys simply want to create a haven that deals as I say somewhat narrowly around the kinds of people that authors or developers will expressly describe their sexual natures, so be it.

 

The reality is I'm not really familiar with nor will ever have the desire to familiarize myself with the "officially canonized" sexuality of this person or that and being rather allergic to it will probably not be able to contribute much here.

 

To be honest I'm kind of just souring on this place generally, for every interesting part there are at least 3 deep burrowed trolls who aren't even really into or invested in games at all but harping some personal problem and masquerading it as an issue of justice or something.

 

If on the other hand, even at this stage, people here still really insist on reading hostile intentions into every bit of drip and drop I have, I probably will not be able to contribute much at all.

[Seraphim24]

Okay. I appreciate the effort you're making to reply to me as much as you have been over the past few days and to be friendly, but it's very clear that we have some fundamental disagreements about basically everything, from how to apply logic, to how to debate that logic, to how to interpret story and characters. I avoid responding back most of the time, because I've come come to anticipate an argument when I do, and I don't actually participate in this forum primarily to argue.

 

If you want to talk with me on that note, feel welcome to send me a pm, but it's generally better that we don't discuss too much in this thread, because I'd rather contribute here in a very positive tone. 

 

Well that's why I mentioned Sailor Mercury, think you might like that anime though...

 

Actually and going back to the Tales of games everyone should gives those a shot sex aside they're just fun, like Bioware games but with a JRPG twist, companion/character centric RPGs with action flavoring. Just like, any one of them they all their moments.

 

Pretty cool OPs also.

 

[vbibbi]

I like flaws in my characters. It's characters that openly wear their flaws on the sleeve and are written fully embracing this that I love, (whether or not I also like these characters as people). I like that Dorian owned slaves and was relatively alright with it. Before the game came out, I openly stated I would be disappointed if he didn't. Where I was disappointed was that there wasn't an option make as big a deal of it as I wanted. I do kind of feel people brush his slavery apologist BS aside, but to be fair, the game is just as guilty of this. At least, in my opinion.

 

We also saw Maevaris (semi)defending slavery in the comics. That was something I appreciated about her as a character and not her as a person. I hope this continues, and that come DA4, the Lucerni are not suddenly anti-slavery and it's also something that can be brought up properly.

 

And it's something I want to see in the hypothetical KISA. I want the flaws. And I also want to properly address them.

 

One scenario that I'd enjoy was if we had the Lucerni as a joinable faction, and a more conservative reform faction led by Calpernia. Calpernia's faction is still morally dubious, as they seek military dominance over other countries and are a bit rougher towards their opponents than "good" factions are in Bio games. But they are anti slavery and seek to reform the entire class system, for mages and non mages.

 

The Lucerni would be the more stereotypical good faction, wanting to eliminate corruption in the government rather than focusing on conquest. And continue magical research and education, focusing on the beneficial work Tevinter has achieved in the past. But they have no plans to eliminate slavery, as such an economic and social upheaval would set their progress back years.

 

Kind of like the Bhelen-Harrowmont choice, but with more depth on each side and both sides clearly having good and bad aspects, instead of luckily picking the meanie candidate and him being more successful.

[sandalisthemaker]

So I'm playing Fallout, and so far I'm thinking Preston counts as a KISA and Paladin Danse is looking good too.

 

Although damnit I've been spoiled regarding Danse....  which is REALLY annoying. 

[daveliam]

@sandal

 

I haven't been spoiled yet and I'm currently away (out of the country) for two weeks so I can't play.  But my brother (who is a huge gamer and knows that I'm planning on romancing Danse) sent me a cryptic text that said, "Dude, you are going to be crushed at something in the game" and now I'm super paranoid trying to think about what it might be.  I vaguely know something happens to/about/from him and I probably won't like it but that's all.  Anxiety!

[Lady Artifice]

So I'm playing Fallout, and so far I'm thinking Preston counts as a KISA and Paladin Danse is looking good too.

 

Although damnit I've been spoiled regarding Danse....  which is REALLY annoying. 

 

I have as well. It's entirely my own fault and I'm very upset with myself. 

[sandalisthemaker]

I have as well. It's entirely my own fault and I'm very upset with myself. 

 

All I was doing was looking up what I had to do to make him available as a companion.  And some idiot in the comment section of the article (damn me for reading all the way to the bottom of the page) had just blurted out the spoiler.     

 

Hopefully this is actually a major part of his story arch and is given enough importance to still make it worth while even without me having the surprise factor. 

 

It seems really interesting and I wonder how he handles it. 

[sandalisthemaker]

@sandal

 

I haven't been spoiled yet and I'm currently away (out of the country) for two weeks so I can't play.  But my brother (who is a huge gamer and knows that I'm planning on romancing Danse) sent me a cryptic text that said, "Dude, you are going to be crushed at something in the game" and now I'm super paranoid trying to think about what it might be.  I vaguely know something happens to/about/from him and I probably won't like it but that's all.  Anxiety!

 

Good luck avoiding spoilers!

 

Oh, and I've seen a pic of him with his head uncovered.   He's got great hair!!

[dgcatanisiri]

One scenario that I'd enjoy was if we had the Lucerni as a joinable faction, and a more conservative reform faction led by Calpernia. Calpernia's faction is still morally dubious, as they seek military dominance over other countries and are a bit rougher towards their opponents than "good" factions are in Bio games. But they are anti slavery and seek to reform the entire class system, for mages and non mages.

 

The Lucerni would be the more stereotypical good faction, wanting to eliminate corruption in the government rather than focusing on conquest. And continue magical research and education, focusing on the beneficial work Tevinter has achieved in the past. But they have no plans to eliminate slavery, as such an economic and social upheaval would set their progress back years.

 

Kind of like the Bhelen-Harrowmont choice, but with more depth on each side and both sides clearly having good and bad aspects, instead of luckily picking the meanie candidate and him being more successful.

 

I like this idea, but the problem I think would happen with it is that, because the Lucerni are Dorian's faction, the writing would go out of its way to prop them up as being 'the better option,' even if the players disagree with that attitude and approach That the writers wouldn't want to put the players in a position where they actually have it said that Dorian is the wrong choice. Like how DA2 had rampant blood magic as a method to offset the fact that the mages were systematically oppressed and abused to say 'both sides are flawed,' or how Inquisition tore down a lot of the Dalish's beliefs without a voice in their favor. Or how, despite everything in Inquisition, the Circles are STILL being brough back by the end.

 

Much as Dragon Age aspires to cover the 'grey morality' aspect, they seem to have a hard time balancing the idea that both sides need to be attacked AND defended, rather than the writing picking a side and only portraying things from that lens.

[vbibbi]

I like this idea, but the problem I think would happen with it is that, because the Lucerni are Dorian's faction, the writing would go out of its way to prop them up as being 'the better option,' even if the players disagree with that attitude and approach That the writers wouldn't want to put the players in a position where they actually have it said that Dorian is the wrong choice. Like how DA2 had rampant blood magic as a method to offset the fact that the mages were systematically oppressed and abused to say 'both sides are flawed,' or how Inquisition tore down a lot of the Dalish's beliefs without a voice in their favor. Or how, despite everything in Inquisition, the Circles are STILL being brough back by the end.

 

Much as Dragon Age aspires to cover the 'grey morality' aspect, they seem to have a hard time balancing the idea that both sides need to be attacked AND defended, rather than the writing picking a side and only portraying things from that lens.

True, and I'm putting this suggestion forth as a best case scenario. I'm not certain Bio would be able to pull it off well.

 

I wouldn't want the Lucerni as the "correct" choice, just the choice that is less militarily aggressive and expansionist and more about internal reforms and cultural enlightenment. And then keeping in the slavery is a method of demonstrating that while people may want these things, no one party will have everything we want. Kind of like Celene vs. Gaspard if it hadn't been poorly implemented in the game. More like their alternate universe TME versions.

[Seraphim24]

All right so I'm going to posit some other idea, which strikes me as theoretically fitting the gay KISA mold.

 

This character is Ritsuko Akagi is a character from the 1996 anime, Neon Genesis Evangelion, that I'm familiar with and may be in this category.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Ritsuko I am positing as a gay KISA because the show postulates she she is really only sexually active with her boss, Gendo Ikari. I'm throwing in using sort of a "gay KISA in theory" sort of label because for the most part, shoe doesn't really express sexual interest with a member of the same sex. However, she seems tha have a close connection with Misato that could be interpreted as faintly sexual. In other words, she seems keenly interested in her friend Misato, showing her interactions to rise above that of a simple friend at times.

 

Spoiler

 

That is of course highly speculative, there is no way to be sure of what Ritsuko's exact sexual interests would be, suffice to say she spends most of her time away and the only other character she has shown a strong interest in is Misato and her close associate, Maya Ibuki who she often mentors.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Overall, Ritsuko's character is one of seemingly kind of asexual presence combined with what seems to be a preference for interactions with women. Her sexual interactions with Gendo do not really seem to suggest genuine desire, but really more of a superficial one.

[daveliam]

@Asellus

 

While I appreciate continued discussion on the topic, I'm not sure that you really understand what people are looking for here.  People are asking for an overtly gay/bisexual KISA type.  Not someone who might sort of somewhat if you squint be bi-curious depending on your interpretation.

 

Personally I want to see unapologetically gay and bisexual (open and confirmed) with the KISA type. 

[GoldenGail3]

@Asellus

While I appreciate continued discussion on the topic, I'm not sure that you really understand what people are looking for here. People are asking for an overtly gay/bisexual KISA type. Not someone who might sort of somewhat if you squint be bi-curious depending on your interpretation.

Personally I want to see unapologetically gay and bisexual (open and confirmed) with the KISA type.

Danse is! Though... I went over to him as a female.

Spoiler

if you romance Danse... You do realize he's related to you? He's your grandson! Your doing your grandson, becuase all human-like sythes have your sons DNA in them!

[GoldenGail3]

Danse is! Though... I went over to him as a female.

Spoiler

if you romance Danse... You do realize he's related to you? He's your grandson! Your doing your grandson, becuase all human-like sythes have your sons DNA in them!

I'm sorry for spoiling it for some people... I'm using a Ipad, so it takes more effort for spoiler tags...

[FKA_Servo]

@Asellus

 

While I appreciate continued discussion on the topic, I'm not sure that you really understand what people are looking for here.  People are asking for an overtly gay/bisexual KISA type.  Not someone who might sort of somewhat if you squint be bi-curious depending on your interpretation.

 

Personally I want to see unapologetically gay and bisexual (open and confirmed) with the KISA type. 

 

I feel like every time I poke around this thread and see him posting suggestions, it's like "wait, wait wait - what about this straight character?"

[carlo angelo]

I feel like every time I poke around this thread and see him posting suggestions, it's like "wait, wait wait - what about this straight character?"

 

Yet, something about my opinion, earlier back, on Sorey (and Mikleo) from Tales of Zestiria (both shown to have no interest in women in game, cutscenes and skits hinting that there's something going on between them, plus "shrug of God", as well as the effing bonus epilogue) was questionable. So I'm just "eh, whatever" about the discussion at this point.

[vbibbi]

Hmm another idea...What are people's thoughts on a LI who is straight but feels an intense same sex connection to the PC and is willing to pursue a romance? Not the DA2 ambiguous "their sexuality is what you want it to be" until Word of God made them all bi, but someone who identifies as straight and has never had latent same sex feelings prior to meeting the PC.

 

This could very well be a special snowflake scenario where the PC is just so special that even straight people will go for them, so it's probably too risky to implement. The outcry of Bioware "converting" straight people is an easy pot shot. But it would be cool, in theory, to explore the fluidity of sexuality and the personal connection between individuals trumping gender or sex. Heck, it could be interesting having a gay LI fall for an opposite sex PC, but the same issues would arise, just from other critics.

[carlo angelo]

Hmm another idea...What are people's thoughts on a LI who is straight but feels an intense same sex connection to the PC and is willing to pursue a romance? Not the DA2 ambiguous "their sexuality is what you want it to be" until Word of God made them all bi, but someone who identifies as straight and has never had latent same sex feelings prior to meeting the PC.

 

This could very well be a special snowflake scenario where the PC is just so special that even straight people will go for them, so it's probably too risky to implement. The outcry of Bioware "converting" straight people is an easy pot shot. But it would be cool, in theory, to explore the fluidity of sexuality and the personal connection between individuals trumping gender or sex. Heck, it could be interesting having a gay LI fall for an opposite sex PC, but the same issues would arise, just from other critics.

 

I'd be very cautious about it. Depending on how the writers go about it, it could be a very good depiction of sexual fluidity, but if it's done without a certain amount of sensitivity required for writing something like this, well...

 

Maybe it's because I have read a lot of bad young adult fiction which has this scenario or something similar- where the gay main character in a book pines away for the straight jock (or the equivalent), and it turns out that jock in question is, surprise, bi-curious (or in the closet). And it doesn't feel very genuine. Which is why I'm viewing this kind of idea with a degree of scepticism, because if it's bad, it's real bad.