7155 réponses à ce sujet

[vbibbi]

I'd be very cautious about it. Depending on how the writers go about it, it could be a very good depiction of sexual fluidity, but if it's done without a certain amount of sensitivity required for writing something like this, well...

 

Maybe it's because I have read a lot of bad young adult fiction which has this scenario or something similar- where the gay main character in a book pines away for the straight jock (or the equivalent), and it turns out that jock in question is, surprise, bi-curious (or in the closet). And it doesn't feel very genuine. Which is why I'm viewing this kind of idea with a degree of scepticism, because if it's bad, it's real bad.

True, so I don't think it's likely to be done by Bioware as it's too much of a risk of offending more people than it appeals to.

 

I have known a few people in life who have had this occur to them, (gay individuals who ended up marrying someone of the opposite sex) but I know it's rare and would be a challenge to write for a broad audience.

[daveliam]

Hmm another idea...What are people's thoughts on a LI who is straight but feels an intense same sex connection to the PC and is willing to pursue a romance? Not the DA2 ambiguous "their sexuality is what you want it to be" until Word of God made them all bi, but someone who identifies as straight and has never had latent same sex feelings prior to meeting the PC.

 

This could very well be a special snowflake scenario where the PC is just so special that even straight people will go for them, so it's probably too risky to implement. The outcry of Bioware "converting" straight people is an easy pot shot. But it would be cool, in theory, to explore the fluidity of sexuality and the personal connection between individuals trumping gender or sex. Heck, it could be interesting having a gay LI fall for an opposite sex PC, but the same issues would arise, just from other critics.

 

I don't have a problem with stories like this because there are people who consider themselves straight until they meet one person who makes them feel otherwise.

 

However, we've already kind of seen that in Bioware games.  For example, Sky and Kaidan.  Sky in particular. 

 

I'd rather see a KISA type who is just straight up gay/bisexual without qualifications.  Just gay/bisexual and that's that. 

[daveliam]

Also, happy 200th page, KISA thread!

 

Thanks to sandal for making a space for this discussion!

[Akrabra]

Also, happy 200th page, KISA thread!

 

Thanks to sandal for making a space for this discussion!

What is KISA? Sorry for beeing abit newbish. 

[vbibbi]

I don't have a problem with stories like this because there are people who consider themselves straight until they meet one person who makes them feel otherwise.

 

However, we've already kind of seen that in Bioware games.  For example, Sky and Kaidan.  Sky in particular. 

 

I'd rather see a KISA type who is just straight up gay/bisexual without qualifications.  Just gay/bisexual and that's that. 

True, although for both of them, I don't know if there was ever acknowledgment of the character's sexuality (which isn't necessary) or if it was up to the player if the companion considered themselves bisexual or PC-sexual. Neither of them explicitly say they have only ever been attracted to the opposite gender before, have they? It can be assumed they have a preference for the opposite gender but not exclusive interest. But yeah, a clearly identifying gay or bi KISA would be better.

 

What is KISA? Sorry for beeing abit newbish. 

Knight In Shining Armor. The trope of the "lawful good" heroic type who has, to date, always been heterosexual when a LI option in Bio games. Think Alistair, Sebastian, Cassandra, Cullen.

[dgcatanisiri]

KISA is an abbreviation for 'Knight In Shining Armor,' your traditional fairy tale Prince Charming. This thread owes its existence to people saying 'hey, how come characters who fall into this archetype, like Alistair, Cassandra, and Cullen, have only been straight?'

[dgcatanisiri]

True, although for both of them, I don't know if there was ever acknowledgment of the character's sexuality (which isn't necessary) or if it was up to the player if the companion considered themselves bisexual or PC-sexual. Neither of them explicitly say they have only ever been attracted to the opposite gender before, have they? It can be assumed they have a preference for the opposite gender but not exclusive interest. But yeah, a clearly identifying gay or bi KISA would be better.

 

Yeah, I see both of them as bisexual, not doing the 'if it's you, it's okay' kind of thing. Though, admittedly, some of the dialogue at the Kaidan romance lock-in on both his and Shepard's part could certainly be taken that way, but I'm already applying copious headcanon to that scene, since I was shouting at the screen 'YES I AM FLIRTING WITH YOU, YOU BACON LOVING IDIOT!' in Huerta when he wanted to 'live in the illusion'... *ahem*

 

But I don't think of them as the 'if it's you' type, mostly because how I view their characters, it comes from these being characters who aren't prone to making the first move in general, and mechanics conspiring against them - you can't actually flirt with Sky until Dawn Star and Silk Fox's romances are 100% closed out, and male Shepard can't make any direct flirts in ME1. I mean, yeah, you can see a couple of flirtatious lines from them in female runs, but they always seem to skirt the line of able to be interpreted non-flirtatiously. Plus BioWare tends to have a bit of difficulty backing up their words of 'sexuality doesn't matter' in any given setting, so you see these characters unsure of if a same-sex PC is actually interested in them.

 

Honestly, I think Zevran is a closer example to this kind of character - he explicitly says that if given a preference, he'd go for a woman, though he is attracted to a male Warden. And, honestly, for me, that's kind of a turn off. Not the idea in general, but just the fact that he says to the face of a male Warden 'yeah, I prefer women. Oh, but you're okay!' I don't know, just that handling always bugged me.

 

In theory, I'm on board with the idea of a fluid-sexuality character, who is having this realization. But I don't really think that I trust BioWare enough to handle it right. I think the better option is just to go with a character who is clearly gay/bi from the start and isn't going to have any kind of identity crisis over their relationship with a same-sex PC.

[Akrabra]

KISA is an abbreviation for 'Knight In Shining Armor,' your traditional fairy tale Prince Charming. This thread owes its existence to people saying 'hey, how come characters who fall into this archetype, like Alistair, Cassandra, and Cullen, have only been straight?'

Ah, thank you. I should have been able to put that together myself. 

[daveliam]

I see Sky as certainly being one of the "straight except for you" types.  He was married with a child.  He specifically asks you why you aren't flirting with the women (a ham-fisted 'gay check' dialogue) and then, when you say that you are more interested in him, he tells you that he's never thought of that but that he needs some time to think on it.  Then he comes back to you later and says that he's interested in moving forward with you.  He never flat out says "I've only been with women before", but it's definitely implied.  But maybe that's just my own perception of it.

 

EDIT:  Still working my way through the Paladin Danse romance in FO4.  In fact, I finally got his approval high enough to start doing the romances.  Not loving that they are all dialogue checks (which means you can fail them), but it's interesting to see nonetheless.  Danse is a smexy warrior man and I'm loving that he's into my widowed father PC character.  What a non-traditional romance couple in a game and it's great.

[Seraphim24]

@Asellus

 

While I appreciate continued discussion on the topic, I'm not sure that you really understand what people are looking for here.  People are asking for an overtly gay/bisexual KISA type.  Not someone who might sort of somewhat if you squint be bi-curious depending on your interpretation.

 

Personally I want to see unapologetically gay and bisexual (open and confirmed) with the KISA type. 

 

With respect, I'm not really sure that you all understand what you all looking for, but I'm also not inclined to press the matter if after 200 pages, you guys are mostly all fixated on this narrowly specific thing and discussing it in this very specific way.

[sandalisthemaker]

Also, happy 200th page, KISA thread!

 

Thanks to sandal for making a space for this discussion!

 

YAY!!!

 

And thanks to all of you who got us to this point. 

[sandalisthemaker]

I see Sky as certainly being one of the "straight except for you" types.  He was married with a child.  He specifically asks you why you aren't flirting with the women (a ham-fisted 'gay check' dialogue) and then, when you say that you are more interested in him, he tells you that he's never thought of that but that he needs some time to think on it.  Then he comes back to you later and says that he's interested in moving forward with you.  He never flat out says "I've only been with women before", but it's definitely implied.  But maybe that's just my own perception of it.

 

EDIT:  Still working my way through the Paladin Danse romance in FO4.  In fact, I finally got his approval high enough to start doing the romances.  Not loving that they are all dialogue checks (which means you can fail them), but it's interesting to see nonetheless.  Danse is a smexy warrior man and I'm loving that he's into my widowed father PC character.  What a non-traditional romance couple in a game and it's great.

 

While I would have liked the SPOILER regarding Danse to have been given more content, I thought the romance with him was sweet overall.  His reactions to the flirts are pretty adorable IMO. He's so no-nonsense and military that it's cute to see him confide things with the PC and to just see him happy etc.

 

Also, in regards to the dialogue checks,  IT IS IN YOUR INTEREST TO GET YOUR CHARISMA UP BEFORE THE END OF HIS PERSONAL QUEST IF IT ISN'T VERY HIGH!!!!    This is in regards to that thing your brother mentioned BTW!

 

Edit:   Although I'm not sure if you reach that point with the SPOILER unless you go full on Brotherhood of Steel.  I did end up choosing to go all the way with the BOS, so IDK. 

[dgcatanisiri]

I see Sky as certainly being one of the "straight except for you" types.  He was married with a child.  He specifically asks you why you aren't flirting with the women (a ham-fisted 'gay check' dialogue) and then, when you say that you are more interested in him, he tells you that he's never thought of that but that he needs some time to think on it.  Then he comes back to you later and says that he's interested in moving forward with you.  He never flat out says "I've only been with women before", but it's definitely implied.  But maybe that's just my own perception of it.

 

I can see your point. I fully admit, I look at Sky with rose-colored glasses. He was my first same-sex romance, so I definitely attach a lot to him that isn't necessarily part of the text.

[daveliam]

@Asellus:  I'm pretty sure that I know exactly what I'm looking for.  I won't go so far as to speak for the collective, but from my end, I'm pretty solid about what I want.  I want a noble, virtuous, 'good' KISA type who is gay.  Not "might be gay".  Not "gay but only for the PC in this particular situation".  Gay as in openly and unequivocally gay without there being any doubt about it.  And a KISA as in a front-line combat warrior with strong moral convictions who fights for the 'greater good'.  We've seen these KISA types in the past, but they've all been straight.  We've seen gay characters in the past, but none of them have been KISAs.  I want to see the combination of these two concepts.  It's pretty clear to me what I'm looking for.......

 

@sandal:  I usually play my FO PCs as high charisma characters.  My charisma right now is at an 8, but I'm going to keep going because I hate failing persuasion checks.  When it was at 7, I had my second flirt option with Danse and, when I failed it, actually restarted from a prior save and then saved right before the conversation in order to keep trying until I passed it.  I'm not sure if I'm going to go with BoS the whole way (they are a little dogmatic and douchey for my liking and I'm a "SJW" so the Railroad seems more my speed....... .....), but I'm certainly playing along until I reach that point of no return in order to get into Danse's pants.  He's pretty great.  He'd really be the type that I'm looking for in this thread if only he was a bit more specific about his sexuality.  I certainly see him as bisexual, but it would be nice if he made a few comments here and there to support it (the way that Cait and Piper do, apparently).  Other than that, I'm pretty thrilled to finally be able to romance the KISA guy in a game!

 

@dgcatanisiri:  I loved Sky too.  He wasn't my first m/m romance because I missed JE on the first go and played it after I had played DA:O.  But since I really didn't like Zevran at all, Sky was my first m/m romance that I actually enjoyed romancing.  But there were definitely some limitations in how they implemented his romance for males.  Requiring you to reject both female LI's first and then including a "are you sure you don't actually want those sexy ladies over there....." dialogue was unnecessary.  And then the kicker -- the cut-away before they actually kiss at the end of the romance!  Frustration for sure.  I give them some leeway since it was really the first m/m romance in any of their games and they were testing the waters.  But, in retrospect, it's a little disappointing.  At the time?  Fantastic, but it doesn't hold up because of how quickly opinions have changed about this kind of content.  He was still sexy, though. 

[SardaukarElite]

I'm starting to think debates about the purpose of this thread should be a drink. 

 

---

 

Happy 200!

[Andraste_Reborn]

At the time?  Fantastic, but it doesn't hold up because of how quickly opinions have changed about this kind of content.

 

It's kind of amazing to reflect that in the fifteen years since BioWare has started doing romance content, we've gone from no same-sex content at all, to same-sex content that you have to jump through hoops to get at, to an uneven number of options, to party members that are only romantically available to a protagonist that shares their gender. Hopefully the next step is gay KISAs raining from the skies.

[vbibbi]

It's kind of amazing to reflect that in the fifteen years since BioWare has started doing romance content, we've gone from no same-sex content at all, to same-sex content that you have to jump through hoops to get at, to an uneven number of options, to party members that are only romantically available to a protagonist that shares their gender. Hopefully the next step is gay KISAs raining from the skies.

[daveliam]

It's kind of amazing to reflect that in the fifteen years since BioWare has started doing romance content, we've gone from no same-sex content at all, to same-sex content that you have to jump through hoops to get at, to an uneven number of options, to party members that are only romantically available to a protagonist that shares their gender. Hopefully the next step is gay KISAs raining from the skies.

 

Yeah, I remember just a few years ago that popular opinion on the forum was that gay and lesbian LI's were never going to happen because they were such a 'niche' feature that it wasn't worth the resources.  Who's laughing now?  Dorian was one of the most popular LI's in DA:I (way more so than Josephine, Bull, and Blackwall)!

 

And to boot, now we see companies other than Bioware offering this content as well.  Bioware used to be mostly alone in this respect, now Bethesda is joining them in offering scripted same-sex romances as well.  Obviously, games like the Sims and Fable offered the generic unscripted s/s 'romances' before as well, but it's a different thing altogether to have a scripted 'romance' that is available for s/s couples.  Pretty great times to be in with regard to progress in that way.  Hopefully soon, it won't even be worth mentioning games that include this feature as it will be the norm instead of the exception.

[Potato Cat]

Just wear Charisma boosting clothing. The other stats seem more valuable to me, and historically I'm a massive speech and science kind of person in FO.

[vbibbi]

 Who's laughing now?  Dorian was one of the most popular LI's in DA:I (way more so than Josephine, Bull, and Blackwall)!

To be fair, I think those are probably some of the least favorite companions anyway (cough boring cough). It's great that so many people also just like Dorian as a character, even if they're not romancing him. A lot of people here have cited him as a favorite companion, even if they're romancing someone else.

[London]

I'm gay and ended up romancing Piper with my male character in FallOut 4. And this was after meeting Danse. Piper has a lot going for her - I really like her a lot. In fact I would rather romance Piper than Dorian as he really is not my cup of tea.

Then I took off Danse' ugly hat and am torn. I know FO4 allows for Polyamory but I'm not sure I want to be in a fluid relationship. Not with how happy Piper is right now. But I don't want to create a new PC to romance Danse.

Danse really is the type of guy I like, personality wise, and likely would come in second after Kaidan who no one can top on my list. I'll have to see how this works out as these options are too few to skip.

[vbibbi]

I'm gay and ended up romancing Piper with my male character in FallOut 4. And this was after meeting Danse. Piper has a lot going for her - I really like her a lot. In face I would rather romance Piper than Dorian as he really is not my cup of tea.

Then I took off Danse' ugly hat and am torn. I know FO4 allows for Polyamory but I'm not sure I want to be in a fluid relationship. Not with how happy Piper is right now. But I don't want to create a new PC to romance Danse.

Danse really is the type of guy I like, personality wise, and likely would come in second after Kaidan who no one can top on my list. I'll have to see how this works out as these options are too few to skip.

I wouldn't mind topping Kaidan, but I guess I'm not on your list.

 

...I'll see myself out...

[Lady Artifice]

Happy 200 pages KISA thread, thanks for providing so much interesting discussion, and being populated by so many fun people. 

 

Just wear Charisma boosting clothing. The other stats seem more valuable to me, and historically I'm a massive speech and science kind of person in FO.

 

Same here. I can't even handle failing a charisma check, and I simply must make sure that my persuasion is high enough to avoid it. 

 

When it comes to needing to pass a charisma check to romance a character in a video game, though, I feel alienated by it on principle. It's hardly romantic to feel like I'm convincing them to like the main character. I understand the mechanic well enough, but I still don't particularly love it. 

[GoldenGail3]

Welp, happy 200th page people!

 

This is my first time doing this...

[SardaukarElite]

When it comes to needing to pass a charisma check to romance a character in a video game, though, I feel alienated by it on principle. It's hardly romantic to feel like I'm convincing them to like the main character. I understand the mechanic well enough, but I still don't particularly love it. 

 

It depends how you look at it. Mutual attraction might be pretty obvious but actually having a comfortable, civil discussion remains a challenge. Not that that is how it's really framed, and there's a whole other issue about how unrepresentative the standard RPG back and forth conversation while standing still is of actual communication.