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[Biotic Apostate]

Bethesda is actually very inclusive and did it way before Bioware did. You could have gay marriage in Fallout 2, yes, it was way back in 1998. Really, I love Bioware, but just the way they present gay contents just make me want to have playersexual because I don't think they handle it well. They honestly have no excuse with ME asides from not offending straight players, they have an entire bisexual female alien race, they have lesbian because "lesbians are hot", all the lesbians are shared with male players except for that one option in ME3 which is also dealt into male fantasy of "lesbians are hot" with the shower scene. In ME2, there's Kelly, another bisexual option that don't even count as a romance. They don't have gay options until ME3. In Me3, Kaidan is a cut and paste version of female Shepard with scenes cutting out, making it shorter and less than the male version. He's also only commented on his attraction to females like with EDI. Cortez is an NPC whose arc revolved around talking about his dead husband the time. In DAI, Dorian as the first gay companion is about afterschool special and sending them to straight camp. I don't know why it has to be able gay instead of happen to be gay with lesbian options like Samantha and Sera. They don't complain or have any hardship about being lesbians, they just are. In Star Wars The Old Republic, all the options are straight, they don't want to make people bisexual due to fear that gay options will turn people away from the game and the teen rating. They make a gay planet, so people can pay to gay. Finally, all the subsequent options are bisexual, too much for artistic integrity for wanting sexual orientations. None of the gay options have been handled well, IMO. KISA is just seemed to be straight while most other bi/gay romance options are mercenaries, mages, rogues. There is a lack of this masculine white knight type that seem to only associated with straight males. In FO4, we have more male romances than female romances. You don't ever see gay romance has more options than straight romance in any of the Bioware game. They also have many lesbian and gay couples across Fallout game. One of the couples during the opening scene is a lesbian couple. Don't get me wrong, I love Bioware games and appreciate them including the gay options, but I wouldn't say they're the epitome in handling LGBT in video games.

Fallout 2 was Interplay/Black Isle, Bethesda had 0 involvement in that, they bought the franchise after 2. They don't have a lot of inclusion actually. Aside from Mel and the couple in opening, no one from the random npcs even alludes to being gay in 4 (in nv there were a lot of gay/lesbian npcs). They removed the Confirmed Bachelor/Cherchez La Femme perks introduced in new vegas (made by Obsidian, with a lot of the creators of FO1 and 2), got rid of any mentions of homophobia in the FO world (which the creators of FO wanted to include). They just didn't lock romances in Skyrim and FO4.

 

ME was a mess, but Kaidan was planned as bi even in ME1. I guess they were scared gay romances would drive away the then perceived majority of straight male gamers. Also it was before EA bought them, crappy excuse, but they didn't want to risk tanking financially, and if ME failed, BW wouldn't probably exist anymore. Any gay themes in games before 2005 were very hush hush (like Sims and Fallout 2).

Again, I blame Hudson for lesbian race, cutting out Kaidan and a lot of other problems with all three games. 

 

But playersexual means having a cut and paste romance, so I had no problems with Kaidan's romance since everything including the animations worked well (plus I don't think there was any less content in the male version, you would have to point out a specific scene), and since you could romance him in 1 as a female, I didn't expect him to stop being attracted to women in 3. And Cortez losing his husband actually fit the tone of ME3, it probably would have felt less hamfisted if he was a companion or if ME3 was longer. On Star Wars I won't comment, since I haven't played it and it kinda feels like a whole different part of BW.

 

And since there are almost no gay characters in games, whose stories deal with homophobia in their life, I didn't mind Dorian's quests. Maybe the hardship part was because Dorian was written by a gay man, and Sera and other lesbian characters mostly by straight men - it's easier to write oppressed characters if you know it.

It's not like making playersexual romances does much for LGBT representation. Bull, Sera, Anders, Isabella, Steve are LGBT characters, MacCready and Danse (and honestly, Kaidan) aren't really.

I know there is some tiny latent homophobia in BW that says manly white knight characters can't be gay, but again, I'm sure this will change.

FO4 has way more male companions than female, the m/m majority is just a side effect from the way they implement romance. I respect that you have a different opinion, but for me, Bioware did way more than other studios, that's why they had more screw ups. But Anders defending being attracted to men and Steve mourning his husband mean so much more to me than Danse not locking me out of the romance by never acknowledging my gender (even if I do really like him and his romance and I'm still grateful that I can do it).

(Also, I read this through, and some of it comes off as me being angry, that is not my intention. English is not my first language, so I have problems sometimes with controlling the tone, sorry about that.)

[SentinelMacDeath]

 

But playersexual means having a cut and paste romance, so I had no problems with Kaidan's romance since everything including the animations worked well (plus I don't think there was any less content in the male version, you would have to point out a specific scene), and since you could romance him in 1 as a female, I didn't expect him to stop being attracted to women in 3. And Cortez losing his husband actually fit the tone of ME3, it probably would have felt less hamfisted if he was a companion or if ME3 was longer. On Star Wars I won't comment, since I haven't played it and it kinda feels like a whole different part of BW.

 

The MShenko scenes are a little different and the sexy time scene is a little over a minute shorter, then you get the different dialogues for a faithful and unfaithful female Shep at their romantic dinner, and the dialogue in the hospital is different too. 

 

You also get the "cup your cheek in my hand" romantic gesture from Kaidan as a lady Shep. 

 

There could be a lot more romantic stuff between mShep and Kaidan. At times it doesn't feel like they're a couple now. 

 

When Kaidan talks with mShep during their romantic dinner he basically tells you that since they've known each other he hasn't been with anyone. So basically he saved himself for a maybe chance with Shep but it doesn't change that I'm still salty about not being able to romance him in ME1. Bisexual yes but not very active in the romance department. 

[Ryzaki]

It appears the Institue perfected Botox.

 

OMG this is exactly what I thought. "That's rather young looking for someone pushing 70..."

[Battlebloodmage]

 

Fallout 2 was Interplay/Black Isle, Bethesda had 0 involvement in that, they bought the franchise after 2. They don't have a lot of inclusion actually. Aside from Mel and the couple in opening, no one from the random npcs even alludes to being gay in 4 (in nv there were a lot of gay/lesbian npcs). They removed the Confirmed Bachelor/Cherchez La Femme perks introduced in new vegas (made by Obsidian, with a lot of the creators of FO1 and 2), got rid of any mentions of homophobia in the FO world (which the creators of FO wanted to include). They just didn't lock romances in Skyrim and FO4.

 

ME was a mess, but Kaidan was planned as bi even in ME1. I guess they were scared gay romances would drive away the then perceived majority of straight male gamers. Also it was before EA bought them, crappy excuse, but they didn't want to risk tanking financially, and if ME failed, BW wouldn't probably exist anymore. Any gay themes in games before 2005 were very hush hush (like Sims and Fallout 2).

Again, I blame Hudson for lesbian race, cutting out Kaidan and a lot of other problems with all three games. 

 

But playersexual means having a cut and paste romance, so I had no problems with Kaidan's romance since everything including the animations worked well (plus I don't think there was any less content in the male version, you would have to point out a specific scene), and since you could romance him in 1 as a female, I didn't expect him to stop being attracted to women in 3. And Cortez losing his husband actually fit the tone of ME3, it probably would have felt less hamfisted if he was a companion or if ME3 was longer. On Star Wars I won't comment, since I haven't played it and it kinda feels like a whole different part of BW.

 

And since there are almost no gay characters in games, whose stories deal with homophobia in their life, I didn't mind Dorian's quests. Maybe the hardship part was because Dorian was written by a gay man, and Sera and other lesbian characters mostly by straight men - it's easier to write oppressed characters if you know it.

It's not like making playersexual romances does much for LGBT representation. Bull, Sera, Anders, Isabella, Steve are LGBT characters, MacCready and Danse (and honestly, Kaidan) aren't really.

I know there is some tiny latent homophobia in BW that says manly white knight characters can't be gay, but again, I'm sure this will change.

FO4 has way more male companions than female, the m/m majority is just a side effect from the way they implement romance. I respect that you have a different opinion, but for me, Bioware did way more than other studios, that's why they had more screw ups. But Anders defending being attracted to men and Steve mourning his husband mean so much more to me than Danse not locking me out of the romance by never acknowledging my gender (even if I do really like him and his romance and I'm still grateful that I can do it).

(Also, I read this through, and some of it comes off as me being angry, that is not my intention. English is not my first language, so I have problems sometimes with controlling the tone, sorry about that.)

 

There are many scenes that only available to female, staring at Kaidan's butt, Kaidan putting her hand on his face, Shepard sitting on Kaidan's lap. A lot of those scenes were cut because it has female animation and it would make Shepard looks feminine, so they cut it. It's like if you make Cullen gay with a mod, a lot of the inquisitor animation is very feminine. 

 

There are some romances that acknowledge it like some lines changes a bit with Preston, MacCready also referring to your gender as male and a windower. On that front, they don't change that much either with bisexual romance in Bioware games, they all say the same line except for the handsome line during the Kaidan's lock in scene. Otherwise, all the scenes are identical. It's more on the developers not wanting to make alternate scene, I call bull when the developers stated that it required the same amount of resource to make them all bi instead of making another option. I think the problem with bi characters in Bioware is, not just with Kaidan, they are all into females most of the time, even Iron Bull. It wasn't until the fans complain that they expand on Iron Bull/Dorian. I think having a confirmed bachelor wouldn't be possible with the kind of setting Fallout 4 had, you're married with a kid, of course you can be married and gay, but I don't see a reason with the Fallout 4 setting where being gay is not being locked down upon. It seems like the protagonists are either straight or bi. As I said, all the gay LIs have to do with them being gay, getting over a gay husband, gay conversion, gay gay gay. I just hope Bioware is finally be able to write a gay character that isn't just about being gay but instead happen to be gay or a character that actually has an equal or maybe leaning more toward guys from the very beginning. Anders are in a game where all the characters are playersexual, and only added Sebastian as straight after the complain. Yeah, straight romance will always have priority in Bioware games.That's just more about sales at the end of the day, i guess. Anyway, that's my opinion on Bioware at the moment, I'll change it maybe when I finally see a game where a gay character is written as accidental and not incidental. I'm just jaded after the whole SWTOR, DAI, and ME3 debacle which leaning me toward playersexual.

[Ryzaki]

But I thought to get the Peace ending you have to be banished from the Institute, which means the quests leading up to Blind Betrayal can't be completed? Then again the video I watched did say that their way wasn't necessarily the only way, just the way that worked for them. 

 

She was my favorite LI and also was the closest I got to a romance for my orientation, with her being like Josephine in the sense of being written to be ambiguous about how intimate they get, leaving it open to players who didn't want a sexual relationship(unlike the other romances where the sex scenes were forced on you). That's another thing I like about Bethesda over Bioware. The romances aren't about sex, since they never talk about it or even involve it unless you sleep in a bed. Even then, some characters like Curie have no lines referencing that sex happened after sleeping, leaving it open to things like they just cuddled, just sleep in the same bed, etc. That said, Bioware has shown more that they see this issue and want to address it more, and already have with characters like Kelly and particularly Josephine. 

 

I straight up rejected the Director from the beginning. When you meet up with him just reject him completely. He'll ask you to join and just say no. You then turn around and leave and it opens up the other factions. Do as many quests as you like (don't talk to Kells EVER cause he's a douchecanoe and will try to get you to kill Vrigil if not the RR) but otherwise keep going, once you have enough settlements defending the castle will trigger and there you go. I didn't have to kill anyone innocent. You have to do an alternate quest to get the scientist for BOS but otherwise it's just the same and I did up to BB then did the Minutemen quest. Now I have everyone's radiants quests (railroad, BOS and Minutemen) and the BOS are salty they didn't get to take the fight to the institute. Win win.

 

And that character romanced Danse and kept him in the endgame. I found it to be the most fitting ending other than Institute honestly. (I just wish there was a quest I could do with Deacon to neutralize him from my hostiles like Danse. Oh well).

[SentinelMacDeath]

OMG this is exactly what I thought. "That's rather young looking for someone pushing 70..."

 

Just perfect genes at work ...  

[dgcatanisiri]

The MShenko scenes are a little different and the sexy time scene is a little over a minute shorter, then you get the different dialogues for a faithful and unfaithful female Shep at their romantic dinner, and the dialogue in the hospital is different too. 

 

You also get the "cup your cheek in my hand" romantic gesture from Kaidan as a lady Shep. 

 

There could be a lot more romantic stuff between mShep and Kaidan. At times it doesn't feel like they're a couple now. 

 

When Kaidan talks with mShep during their romantic dinner he basically tells you that since they've known each other he hasn't been with anyone. So basically he saved himself for a maybe chance with Shep but it doesn't change that I'm still salty about not being able to romance him in ME1. Bisexual yes but not very active in the romance department. 

 

Additionally, and frustratingly, Shepard and Kaidan don't walk arm and arm to the casino in Citadel, and I'm POSITIVE that they have female Shepard's body motion rigging used exclusively in the 'burn off the calories' bit in their dinner date.

[SentinelMacDeath]

YEAH! That too ... i love mShenko to bits and I waited so long for it but man .. it doesn't feel like a proper romance most of the time. With the premise that they waited for each other and went through so much **** and then there is nothing even a little bit lovey dovey. It bothered me too that Shep kind of made fun of Kaidan's cooking skills ... to me it felt unnecessary. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You can be banished many ways. If you do the Bunker Hills and choose to free the synths instead of returning them back to the Institute, if you tell Father the truth, he will banish you, there's another one where you defend a scientist with the Minutemen against the Institute where they will banish you as well, kill any named scientist would also result in banishment. You just need to progress with the Institute quest long enough to unlock Blind Betrayal. The Minutemen can be completed anytime. You will always end up with 2 factions and the Minutemen in the Minutemen ending as long as you don't have the BoS goes hostile on you. 

So just to be clear, to get the Peace Ending and recruit all followers I just need to progress to these points: 

Brotherhood of Steel: Complete up to Blind Betrayal, do not do Tactical Thinking. 

Institute: Complete up to Mankind Redefined, then get banished.

Minutemen: Complete the entire quest line.

 

How far can you go with the Railroad quest line?

[Battlebloodmage]

YEAH! That too ... i love mShenko to bits and I waited so long for it but man .. it doesn't feel like a proper romance most of the time. With the premise that they waited for each other and went through so much **** and then there is nothing even a little bit lovey dovey. It bothered me too that Shep kind of made fun of Kaidan's cooking skills ... to me it felt unnecessary. 

The way I see it, ME doesn't care about gay romance. They're only doing because of pressure from the fans and maybe even EA. They only do the bare minimum with the gay romance. The gay option had a cut to black scene but the lesbian option has the whole scene with the shower. Kaidan is just from femShep with scenes cutting out. I'm still annoyed with the entire femShep holding hands with Kaidan and maleShep doesn't have any intimate things like that. At least, they throw us a bone, I suppose I should be grateful. That's more than what I can say about SWTOR, and I refuse to play that game due to the patronizing way of the developers go around it. It's so laughable when they said post launch, we all know that it will never be implemented, and we were right. By the expansion for the playsexual for Theron and Lana, sexual orientation is really just an excuse for them for not including them, especially considering other straight romance has 2 options per path. With DA, at least, the lead writer is gay. I'm just a bid jaded with the entire thing here. I'll try to be a bit more positive.

[Battlebloodmage]

So just to be clear, to get the Peace Ending and recruit all followers I just need to progress to these points: 

Brotherhood of Steel: Complete up to Blind Betrayal, do not do Tactical Thinking. 

Institute: Complete up to Mankind Redefined, then get banished.

Minutemen: Complete the entire quest line.

 

How far can you go with the Railroad quest line?

You can continue all quests until Mass Fusion for the Institute or Spoils of War, that's when you have to choose side. RR doesn't have a breaking point you need to know since they depend on siding with Institute way pass Mass Fusion. Right on Brotherhood of Steel, RR quests go side to side with Institute, so do quests for both RR and Institute up until Mass Fusion then do something to get bashed then Minutemen will start.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You can continue all quests until Mass Fusion for the Institute or Spoils of War, that's when you have to choose side. RR doesn't have a breaking point you need to know since they depend on siding with Institute way pass Mass Fusion. Right on Brotherhood of Steel, RR quests go side to side with Institute, so do quests for both RR and Institute up until Mass Fusion then do something to get bashed then Minutemen will start.

Ah, okay. Yay, that means I get to revive my big buddy Liberty Prime, even if he doesn't get to fight the "communists" since I use the Minutemen. 

 

But what about Precipice of War, which has the Brotherhood attack the Railroad HQ? I read there is a diplomacy option, but I can't find it in any of the videos. I'm guessing getting banished before the mole gives you that intel is a way to avoid that?

 

Thanks for helping me with this. I really appreciate it.

[Battlebloodmage]

Ah, okay. Yay, that means I get to revive my big buddy Liberty Prime, even if he doesn't get to fight the "communists" since I use the Minutemen. 

 

But what about Precipice of War, which has the Brotherhood attack the Railroad HQ? I read there is a diplomacy option, but I can't find it in any of the videos. I'm guessing getting banished before the mole gives you that intel is a way to avoid that?

 

Thanks for helping me with this. I really appreciate it.

Precipice of War doesn't start until Mass Fusion is completed, even then, it doesn't happen unless you speak to Desdemona. There is no diplomatic option because once you speak to her, the Brotherhood would have already attacked and by that time, you were already become hostile with Brotherhood of Steel since siding with the RR required you to siding with the Institute, meaning completed Mass Fusion. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Precipice of War doesn't start until Mass Fusion is completed, even then, it doesn't happen unless you speak to Desdemona. There is no diplomatic option because once you speak to her, the Brotherhood would have already attacked and by that time, you were already become hostile with Brotherhood of Steel since siding with the RR required you to siding with the Institute, meaning completed Mass Fusion. 

Oh, okay. There's nothing to worry about then since I'm not siding with the Institute at that point. Thanks again.

[NKnight7]

It's also important to remember that after Blind Betrayal if Danse is still alive and if you have him as your companion you will stay enemies with the BoS as long as you have him. Just remember not to go near the airport while you have him with you. Have another companion with you and the BoS won't be hostile to you. I remember being surprised after completing his quest when I fast traveled somewhere and some BoS soldiers already there attacked me, but than I remembered why they were attacking me.

[Dean_the_Young]

He doesn't travel with me, but I wouldn't say he is grumpy. He is just professional.

 

I made a beeline to Vault 81 to recruit her. 

 

I made a beeline to Vault 81 for Overseer's Guardian.

 

Guns don't usually get me hot and bothered, but-
 

[NKnight7]

I made a beeline to Vault 81 for Overseer's Guardian.

 

Guns don't usually get me hot and bothered, but-
 

 

Great weapon, easily top 5. It can tear down most enemies in seconds.

[Dean_the_Young]

But I thought to get the Peace ending you have to be banished from the Institute, which means the quests leading up to Blind Betrayal can't be completed? Then again the video I watched did say that their way wasn't necessarily the only way, just the way that worked for them. 

 

There really isn't a peace ending, Hanako.

 

 

What there is is an exploit/borderline glitch in which the game thinks you've completed missions you actually haven't. Not only are you locked out of talking to two specific mission-giving characters forever more, but NPC dialogue acts as if you already did certain missions.

 

I'm not sure if it's a glitch or a logic oversight, but it certainly wasn't intentional- there's no reflection of the survival of the other faction as a matter of plot.

 

 

I strongly, strongly suggest you just follow the design intent. The game's logic structure is build on the Minutemen + 1 other faction (maybe).
 

[Battlebloodmage]

There really isn't a peace ending, Hanako.

 

 

What there is is an exploit/borderline glitch in which the game thinks you've completed missions you actually haven't. Not only are you locked out of talking to two specific mission-giving characters forever more, but NPC dialogue acts as if you already did certain missions.

 

I'm not sure if it's a glitch or a logic oversight, but it certainly wasn't intentional- there's no reflection of the survival of the other faction as a matter of plot.

 

 

I strongly, strongly suggest you just follow the design intent. The game's logic structure is build on the Minutemen + 1 other faction (maybe).
 

The Minutemen is not an exploit. It's intended because if you talk to the BoS and Danse, they're disappointed that you didn't side with them to destroy the Institute but at least it's over, so the BoS has lines to show they alive in the ending. For the RR, you need to order the evacuation order, otherwise, they would go hostile on you. Both of them have post ending scripts. An exploit would be to side with the BoS and spare the RR. Brotherhood destruction wouldn't happen with the Minutemen ending regardless unless you killed a named character, the Minutemen has no reason to destroy them, the same as the RR. I think it's intended to be that way. The Minutemen is supposed to be the safety line ending, meaning you happen to ****** off all the other factions, that's why you can never go hostile with the Minutemen. I doubt it would be a canon ending either because of it. There are certain canon events like Blind Betrayal because after the ending, while scribe Hayden sad that you didn't use the BoS to destroy the Institute, she was glad you spare Danse, even if you didn't complete the quest.

[SentinelMacDeath]

the BoS is literally everywhere, I passed this little house and the BoS was fighting raiders, had to sprint over to Danse to send him back home just so I wouldn't have to kill my brethren 

[Battlebloodmage]

the BoS is literally everywhere, I passed this little house and the BoS was fighting raiders, had to sprint over to Danse to send him back home just so I wouldn't have to kill my brethren 

Give him a facial reconstruction

 

 

Outstanding.

[Ryzaki]

So just to be clear, to get the Peace Ending and recruit all followers I just need to progress to these points: 

Brotherhood of Steel: Complete up to Blind Betrayal, do not do Tactical Thinking. 

Institute: Complete up to Mankind Redefined, then get banished.

Minutemen: Complete the entire quest line.

 

How far can you go with the Railroad quest line?

 

pretty sure the Institute companion is hostile if you destroy them no?

 

There really isn't a peace ending, Hanako.

 

 

What there is is an exploit/borderline glitch in which the game thinks you've completed missions you actually haven't. Not only are you locked out of talking to two specific mission-giving characters forever more, but NPC dialogue acts as if you already did certain missions.

 

I'm not sure if it's a glitch or a logic oversight, but it certainly wasn't intentional- there's no reflection of the survival of the other faction as a matter of plot.

 

 

I strongly, strongly suggest you just follow the design intent. The game's logic structure is build on the Minutemen + 1 other faction (maybe).
 

 

This is not true. The dialogue suggests that Minutemen with pretty much everyone alive is an expected ending by the game. It's not an exploit. Danse, Preston and Desdemona all reacted to my choice without any weirdness. X6 not turning hostile is most likely the bug in that scenario but that's not limited to the Minutemen ending.

 

That said it's not entirely peaceful because the other shoe is bound to drop with the BOS (Mintuemen with their artillery is bound to cause problems and we already know how they feel about the railroad)  which is why honestly I prefer aggroing them and blowing that oversided tin can out the sky.

[SentinelMacDeath]

Give him a facial reconstruction



Outstanding.

are you trying to kill me? OMG! can I have one of each?

Also, after not being able to sleep, too much fanfic and a heavy dose of thinking too much... am I Danse's first? If yes, I should have taken him to a nicer hotel....

[Battlebloodmage]

are you trying to kill me? OMG! can I have one of each?

Also, after not being able to sleep, too much fanfic and a heavy dose of thinking too much... am I Danse's first? If yes, I should have taken him to a nicer hotel....

Yes, pretty sure you're Danse first. He said it himself that he focused too much on his job that he never thought he would find anyone. He also said that he still needs to come to terms with the "human feelings" after you enter into a romance with him meaning that he had never felt romantic feeling before, and I don't think he would have one night stand (like Kaidan j/k), consider his personality and what kind of standard he sets for himself as a part of a solder. The poor guy goes to a bar and order non-alcoholic beverage. 

 

Danse's cap makes him fit into any urban setting in any video games though. I feel like while Fallout 4 graphics may not be the best. Some of them look very realistic, even more so than some other video games with better graphics. One of the perks about FO on PC is we can rub off the dirt on his face. He looks dirty all the time. 

 

[Biotic Apostate]

The MShenko scenes are a little different and the sexy time scene is a little over a minute shorter, then you get the different dialogues for a faithful and unfaithful female Shep at their romantic dinner, and the dialogue in the hospital is different too. 

 

You also get the "cup your cheek in my hand" romantic gesture from Kaidan as a lady Shep. 

 

There could be a lot more romantic stuff between mShep and Kaidan. At times it doesn't feel like they're a couple now. 

 

When Kaidan talks with mShep during their romantic dinner he basically tells you that since they've known each other he hasn't been with anyone. So basically he saved himself for a maybe chance with Shep but it doesn't change that I'm still salty about not being able to romance him in ME1. Bisexual yes but not very active in the romance department. 

My Shep had to do all the cheek cupping :/ Guess the cut dialogue made sense, but less scenes in the mshep version are dissapointing. It seems more like "straight until you pursue my romance" than bisexual, really. Eh, liked him anyway