7132 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

How would the romance work though? Or no romance at all?

 

I'd assume in this case it could happen near the beginning of the game. Ser Barris from Champions of the Just would be a perfect example of this, only he would become a full-fledged follower instead of an agent. Then the romance happens as normal.

 

You know, that actually would be really interesting. Imagine if there had been no Cole for CotJ, but we still had the Dorian path in IHW. But at the end there is no convenient shoehorning of the left over follower at the Haven gates. The player makes their choice of missions and recruits (or not) whichever new follower at the end. In this case, it would be the choice between Dorian and Barris.

 

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if Bioware is willing to do something like that, because while recruitment is optional for most people, that particular method has one follower (and all of the work done for them) sit on the bench no matter what.

[CrimsonN7]

God, I HATE Cullen/Samson ... even more than Adoribull ....

That's a thing... Eww.

Fan fiction can be really good sometimes but also really awful too.

[nightscrawl]

^ I bet there are Samson/Corypheus fics too... And Calpernia/Corypheus, and probably Architect/Corypheus*.

 

You're welcome.

 

 

* Actually, if someone was really creative and into some serious story building, an entire fic that takes place at the time of the original Fade breach might be interesting, depending on how it was written. Then you can have Architect/Corypheus as normal guys if you want to go down that path. I don't like non-canonical stuff, but it would be totally damn awesome if this were an official Bioware DA novel. I'd read the hell outta that.

[CrimsonN7]

^ I bet there are Samson/Corypheus fics too... And Calpernia/Corypheus, and probably Architect/Corypheus*.
 
You're welcome.

Aha, honestly wouldn't surprise me if there was. I'm kinda a stickler when it comes to what I will read when it comes to Bioware character FF. If they aren't in game ships I won't bother reading them.

[daveliam]

I'd assume in this case it could happen near the beginning of the game. Ser Barris from Champions of the Just would be a perfect example of this, only he would become a full-fledged follower instead of an agent. Then the romance happens as normal.

You know, that actually would be really interesting. Imagine if there had been no Cole for CotJ, but we still had the Dorian path in IHW. But at the end there is no convenient shoehorning of the left over follower at the Haven gates. The player makes their choice of missions and recruits (or not) whichever new follower at the end. In this case, it would be the choice between Dorian and Barris.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if Bioware is willing to do something like that, because while recruitment is optional for most people, that particular method has one follower (and all of the work done for them) sit on the bench no matter what.

I would actually LOVE if they did this but I agree that it's unlikely because of resources.

Think of KOTOR 2, there were two sets of mutually exclusive companions depending on your alignment and gender. They could do that in DA, but around affiliations instead. Imagine if you got Maevaris if you chose to reform the Magisterium or a conservative traditionalist magister if you squashed the Lucerni. Or if you got a Qunari soldier if you sided with them in Seheron or a Imperial general if you worked against them. That could be cool.

But it's also off-topic!

On topic, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. A character who you meet early as an antagonist. There would have to be some dialogue options to allow you to plant the seed of doubt in his mind and to set up the possibility of a romance. Then, early-mid game when you face him again, you have the ability to talk him down and recruit him. Then the romance proceeds as normal from there. This way, even if he's a late companion, you'd still have time to establish his story arc earlier.

[Geth Supremacy]

I have a serious question.

 

If you are going to romance a character and do love scenes and stuff and you care that a character is ****** or hetero I understand.

 

If you are going to have a character in a game that acts any way or does A. B. or C. action.  Why is their feelings on sex even something that comes up or matters?  What do you get out of it?

 

 

This site LMAO!  The word "******" is offensive, but the word "hetero" is not.  I don't even......

[vertigomez]

I have a serious question.
 
If you are going to romance a character and do love scenes and stuff and you care that a character is ****** or hetero I understand.
 
If you are going to have a character in a game that acts any way or does A. B. or C. action.  Why is their feelings on sex even something that comes up or matters?  What do you get out of it?
 
 
This site LMAO!  The word "******" is offensive, but the word "hetero" is not.  I don't even......

It depends on the context, I suppose...

But generally speaking, I like knowing that Wade and Herren were a thing, or Celene and Briala were a thing, because it makes me feel like the protagonist + their LI aren't the only queer people in the entire universe.

[daveliam]

I have a serious question.

If you are going to romance a character and do love scenes and stuff and you care that a character is ****** or hetero I understand.

If you are going to have a character in a game that acts any way or does A. B. or C. action. Why is their feelings on sex even something that comes up or matters? What do you get out of it?


This site LMAO! The word "******" is offensive, but the word "hetero" is not. I don't even......

Because part of it is for me is about just having a variety of gay representation across the spectrum. Thee are still many people who say 'gay characters can't be like X' or 'it doesn't make sense for X to be gay'. And that's because they aren't exposed to gay characters who don't fit into the traditional (often stereotype) roles. The more and more we have side characters who are gay (guards, blacksmiths, farmers, nobles, warriors, barbarians, etc), the less people will get this narrow view in their head about what 'gay people are like.'

Does that make sense? I'm not if that was the most eloquent way of expressing my thinking on it.

[Biotic Apostate]

I have a serious question.

 

If you are going to romance a character and do love scenes and stuff and you care that a character is ****** or hetero I understand.

 

If you are going to have a character in a game that acts any way or does A. B. or C. action.  Why is their feelings on sex even something that comes up or matters?  What do you get out of it?

 

 

This site LMAO!  The word "******" is offensive, but the word "hetero" is not.  I don't even......

Because minorities getting represented in media is something that has actual influence on the mental wellbeing of those groups. For me, as a gay man, seeing LGBT people being represented in the game as normal people, who don't necessarily exist only for someone to romance and are varied, makes me feel more at ease with myself, and allows straight people to see sexual minorities outside of a sexual context, and make them realize that the sassy, fashionable, pretty gay man is far from being representative of all gay men.

Also, straight characters can be anything they want. Gay ones? Sidekicks, comic relief, and protagonists of coming out or AIDS stories. I want to see people like me in more varied roles. Just look at how many black people, especially kids, were excited for Finn from Star Wars. Skin colour, like sexuality, doesn't really influence the character, yet people were happy, because black men tend to also be represented according to some narrow stereotypes. 

[nightscrawl]

I wrote out a thing, but Dave said it better.

 

To add one point, the best way to show this is through dialogue, random NPC banter. If a blacksmith happens to randomly mention going home to John at the end of the day, then there is your representation. No talk of sex. No stereotypical behavior. Just a normal person doing a normal thing who mentions their partner, just like a straight person feels comfortable (and normal) in doing.

 

Similarly, I actually rather liked the bickering couple in WEWH, though I know some did not. It really has the vibe that they've been together a long while, don't mean anything they say, and certainly aren't going to break up because one of them danced with someone else. They could have been a straight couple and all of the dialogue would have been exactly the same.

 

You don't have to have the Iron Bull level of "I don't know how those barmaids can be up so early after the night we had" sort of bawdy talk to show representation.

[daveliam]

Yes! And to add onto the point about them just acting like normal people:

There's still this thing where anytime a gay person brings up his/her spouse/partner/whatever, some people say, 'Why is it always about your sexuality? You don't see straight people doing that...' Some people think it's normal for a straight guy to talk about his girlfriend but if a gay guy talks about his boyfriend, he's pushing an agenda or 'bringing up his sexuality'. It's frustrating. I've posted this silly scenario before but it really works like this sometimes:

Straight guy 1: Did you see Beth in Accounting today? She's so hot!

Straight guy 2: Yeah, but not as hot as Jenny in Marketing!

Straight guy 3: Oh man, if my wife heard us talk like this, she'd kill me!

Gay guy: Yeah, Joseph would kill me too if I talked about guys like that!

Straight guys: Yeah, we GET IT. You're gay. You don't always have to remind us. You don't see us bringing up that we're straight all the time!

[Geth Supremacy]

Because part of it is for me is about just having a variety of gay representation across the spectrum. Thee are still many people who say 'gay characters can't be like X' or 'it doesn't make sense for X to be gay'. And that's because they aren't exposed to gay characters who don't fit into the traditional (often stereotype) roles. The more and more we have side characters who are gay (guards, blacksmiths, farmers, nobles, warriors, barbarians, etc), the less people will get this narrow view in their head about what 'gay people are like.'

Does that make sense? I'm not if that was the most eloquent way of expressing my thinking on it.

 

What you said makes sense, but to me none of the characters outside of party members and the PC even have sexuality.  They are just characters and who they are.  They could be any orientation and no one knows.  There is no icon over their head telling you they're specifically hetero and that why I can't understand this is even a thing.  To even further confuse me you are talking aobut how they can be any role and fit any mold, but how do you know they aren't gay and since they are undefined in that way then why can they be assumed what you prefer or just be an actual character and their orientation not even matter and take them for what they are.

 

So like the title of this thread.  A "gay knight in shining armor"  could this have not been a templar in one of the games or does the game HAVE to state their orientation after the fact?

 

I don't feel characters are being fleshed out in this way one way or the other.

[daveliam]

What you said makes sense, but to me none of the characters outside of party members and the PC even have sexuality. They are just characters and who they are. They could be any orientation and no one knows. There is no icon over their head telling you they're specifically hetero and that why I can't understand this is even a thing. To even further confuse me you are talking aobut how they can be any role and fit any mold, but how do you know they aren't gay and since they are undefined in that way then why can they be assumed what you prefer or just be an actual character and their orientation not even matter and take them for what they are.

So like the title of this thread. A "gay knight in shining armor" could this have not been a templar in one of the games or does the game HAVE to state their orientation after the fact?

I don't feel characters are being fleshed out in this way one way or the other.

You're absolutely right that there probably HAVE been some rando Templars who were gay but it never came up.

But there ARE times when rando side characters sexuality come up in subtle ways. And sometimes they are gay but they are mostly straight. I just want the ones that ARE gay to come from a variety of backgrounds.

Specific to this thread, we are talking about a major character -- like a companion and LI, so we would like it to be explicit. Like have it confirmed and not just be left to the imagination and head-canoning.

[Geth Supremacy]

You're absolutely right that there probably HAVE been some rando Templars who were gay but it never came up.

But there ARE times when rando side characters sexuality come up in subtle ways. And sometimes they are gay but they are mostly straight. I just want the ones that ARE gay to come from a variety of backgrounds.

Specific to this thread, we are talking about a major character -- like a companion and LI, so we would like it to be explicit. Like have it confirmed and not just be left to the imagination and head-canoning.

 

Yeah, I fully respect when it comes to an LI.  I agree there.  I click this thread sometimes here and there and when I do read it I always got the sense other characters/situations were called in as well and I just never understood it.  Perhaps I am interpreting it wrong though as it seems we are on the same page.

 

From the way you are talking I get where you're coming from.  I understand now.

[dgcatanisiri]

Also, the 'existing through conversations/ambient dialogue' would be a pretty big thing. I mean, Wade and Herren and the couple in WEWH are meant to provide laughs, and I have a really hard time figure out if we're meant to be laughing with them or laughing at them, you know? Like, Wade and Herren's relationship is played entirely as Wade complaining and Herren being exasperated with him - okay, they're supposed to be a couple, but do they actually even LIKE each other? If all we're getting of a relationship between them is snippets that show the couple at their worst and not really doing anything but bickering, given the absence of other portrayals of these relationships being more positive, where 'yes, I do love the man I'm in a relationship with' is not a sentiment that we're getting to actually see, it's hard to see what we're getting from the Wade and Herren's of the series as being representation, that they just exist to be a punchline.

[GoldenGail3]

That's a thing... Eww.
Fan fiction can be really good sometimes but also really awful too.

*thinks glumly about hers*

[GoldenGail3]

Yes! And to add onto the point about them just acting like normal people:
There's still this thing where anytime a gay person brings up his/her spouse/partner/whatever, some people say, 'Why is it always about your sexuality? You don't see straight people doing that...' Some people think it's normal for a straight guy to talk about his girlfriend but if a gay guy talks about his boyfriend, he's pushing an agenda or 'bringing up his sexuality'. It's frustrating. I've posted this silly scenario before but it really works like this sometimes:
Straight guy 1: Did you see Beth in Accounting today? She's so hot!
Straight guy 2: Yeah, but not as hot as Jenny in Marketing!
Straight guy 3: Oh man, if my wife heard us talk like this, she'd kill me!
Gay guy: Yeah, Joseph would kill me too if I talked about guys like that!
Straight guys: Yeah, we GET IT. You're gay. You don't always have to remind us. You don't see us bringing up that we're straight all the time!

Or maybe it's just awkward and really tiresome for everyone involved? I myself don't know any gays/lesbians in RL becuase I don't talk much; I'm serious, I don't, lol. But if a Lesbian decided to talk about her likes of females to me, I'd go right over my head... *sighs*

[Biotic Apostate]

Or maybe it's just awkward and really tiresome for everyone involved? I myself don't know any gays/lesbians in RL becuase I don't talk much; I'm serious, I don't, lol. But if a Lesbian decided to talk about her likes of females to me, I'd go right over my head... *sighs*

This isn't a situation, where a gay person out of nowhere starts talking about their sexuality, but a response to the current conversation. You have accidentally proven the point, straight people can talk about relationships and sex naturally, gay people cannot take part in such conversations, just stare at the wall and pretend no one is saying anything.

[nightscrawl]

Or maybe it's just awkward and really tiresome for everyone involved? I myself don't know any gays/lesbians in RL becuase I don't talk much; I'm serious, I don't, lol. But if a Lesbian decided to talk about her likes of females to me, I'd go right over my head... *sighs*

 

Actually, I'd think it would be easier with women. Women are much more willing to acknowledge another woman's attractiveness, or remark on features they find exceptional ("Omg I wish I had her nose" and so on). I got into a discussion with another woman about boob size a while back (that is, what we find attractive), and neither of us are lesbians. Then there is the whole non-gay girl crushing thing, which can be so much fun. I have a huge fangirl crush on Cassandra and would have romanced her as f/f if I could, but such was not to be. However, I really have no sexual interest in her at all, even though I do find her attractive.

 

Of course, we can also be catty and jealous about other women, but my previous point still stands.

 

Also, you might know some irl, but you just don't know that you know because you don't talk to them about it. XD I had a lesbian friend in high school, but didn't find out until some later point. I don't even remember the circumstance now, but it was nothing do to with girl watching or anything. It was just, "Okay ," and we moved on to what we normally talked about (school stuff, music, etc).

 

 

At any rate, Dave's point is about the hypocrisy of the scenario that he posted.

[Akrabra]

Also, the 'existing through conversations/ambient dialogue' would be a pretty big thing. I mean, Wade and Herren and the couple in WEWH are meant to provide laughs, and I have a really hard time figure out if we're meant to be laughing with them or laughing at them, you know? Like, Wade and Herren's relationship is played entirely as Wade complaining and Herren being exasperated with him - okay, they're supposed to be a couple, but do they actually even LIKE each other? If all we're getting of a relationship between them is snippets that show the couple at their worst and not really doing anything but bickering, given the absence of other portrayals of these relationships being more positive, where 'yes, I do love the man I'm in a relationship with' is not a sentiment that we're getting to actually see, it's hard to see what we're getting from the Wade and Herren's of the series as being representation, that they just exist to be a punchline.

Are they gay? Never knew, or is it just assumed and never stated outright? 

[nightscrawl]

^ Wade and Herren were confirmed to be a couple, yes. Incidentally, DG's remarks in that thread are worth a read.

 

For both Wade/Herren and the WEWH couple, I never got the feeling that we were supposed to be laughing at them, or at their expense. With Wade and Herren it's more based on Wade being an artist and Herren actually wanting to, you know, eat occasionally, and all of it is enhanced by the fact that Wade is a superbly brilliant blacksmith. The war table mission even has Cullen remark that Wade's talent is undeniable.

 

In WEWH, I just found the circumstance amusing, and to me it has nothing to do with them being a same-sex pairing. This is the same level of amusement I get from hearing the duchess talk about her many dead husbands, and all of the odd circumstances of their deaths.

 

He didn't write Wade/Herren, but David Gaider seems to have a liking for contentious relationships, probably based around his own parents' behavior toward each other. "As I watch my parents, it belatedly occurs to me there's a good reason my idea of a relationship looks more like a combative friendship."

 

 

But that's just me and how I view both incidents.

[GoldenGail3]

Actually, I'd think it would be easier with women. Women are much more willing to acknowledge another woman's attractiveness, or remark on features they find exceptional ("Omg I wish I had her nose" and so on). I got into a discussion with another woman about boob size a while back (that is, what we find attractive), and neither of us are lesbians. Then there is the whole non-gay girl crushing thing, which can be so much fun. I have a huge fangirl crush on Cassandra and would have romanced her as f/f if I could, but such was not to be. However, I really have no sexual interest in her at all, even though I do find her attractive.
 
Of course, we can also be catty and jealous about other women, but my previous point still stands.
 
Also, you might know some irl, but you just don't know that you know because you don't talk to them about it. XD I had a lesbian friend in high school, but didn't find out until some later point. I don't even remember the circumstance now, but it was nothing do to with girl watching or anything. It was just, "Okay ," and we moved on to what we normally talked about (school stuff, music, etc).
 
 
At any rate, Dave's point is about the hypocrisy of the scenario that he posted.

I could possibly, but I don't go out much, lol, and all my friends are in the states so they possibly could be but I am not in contact with them so there's that. After all, my guy in Skryim got a divorce with a woman to go get another (Aela) and he's Bi. I'm gonna go get him married to a guy at some point, but he even travels with two woman so... Not for awhile, I suppose...

[dgcatanisiri]

^ Wade and Herren were confirmed to be a couple, yes. Incidentally, DG's remarks in that thread are worth a read.

 

For both Wade/Herren and the WEWH couple, I never got the feeling that we were supposed to be laughing at them, or at their expense. With Wade and Herren it's more based on Wade being an artist and Herren actually wanting to, you know, eat occasionally, and all of it is enhanced by the fact that Wade is a superbly brilliant blacksmith. The war table mission even has Cullen remark that Wade's talent is undeniable.

 

In WEWH, I just found the circumstance amusing, and to me it has nothing to do with them being a same-sex pairing. This is the same level of amusement I get from hearing the duchess talk about her many dead husbands, and all of the odd circumstances of their deaths.

 

He didn't write Wade/Herren, but David Gaider seems to have a liking for contentious relationships, probably based around his own parents' behavior toward each other. "As I watch my parents, it belatedly occurs to me there's a good reason my idea of a relationship looks more like a combative friendship."

 

 

But that's just me and how I view both incidents.

 

Yeah, I can see it as just being 'oh, the conflict between an artist and the desire for food on the table,' or 'petty bickering.' My thing is just that one, it's a trend, that these side characters who are in M/M relationships are only appearing as jokes, even if it's not directly tied to their sexualities, making me concerned that they're only being seen as funny because they're two men in a relationship, and two, that we don't seem to really get much of the positive side of these relationships, just seeing them bickering. Like, Wade and Herren never really have that moment where they show that they love and care about each other, we just see either Herren complaining about Wade focusing on the ART over the money, or Wade complaining about the temperature at Vigil's Keep and why did we have to leave our shop in Denerim, Herren.

 

It may not be laughing at them because they're gay, but they're used primarily as a punchline regardless. It just doesn't seem like we're supposed to really take them all that seriously in multiple respects. I mean, I recognize I will read a lot of unintended stuff into things, but I like to at least get it out there, because a lot of the complaints in threads like this are about the things missing or lacking or these messages that are presented that fly by the people who aren't personally affected by them.

[GoldenGail3]

This isn't a situation, where a gay person out of nowhere starts talking about their sexuality, but a response to the current conversation. You have accidentally proven the point, straight people can talk about relationships and sex naturally, gay people cannot take part in such conversations, just stare at the wall and pretend no one is saying anything.

So it's like my disorder, pretty much?

[nightscrawl]

... and two, that we don't seem to really get much of the positive side of these relationships, just seeing them bickering. Like, Wade and Herren never really have that moment where they show that they love and care about each other, we just see either Herren complaining about Wade focusing on the ART over the money, or Wade complaining about the temperature at Vigil's Keep and why did we have to leave our shop in Denerim, Herren.

Yeah, I can certainly see this problem with it. Usually in entertainment when you have such a couple there is that sweet moment where you see the love underneath and see why they're together in the first place. I do get that.