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[Hazegurl]

Rhaegar Targaryen raped Lyanna, the sister of Ned Stark, and the love of Robert Baratheon. I doubt that it can been as being noble. 

We have no proof of that except by Robert's words and he was obviously salty. Not saying Rhaegar didn't do it, but that no one can say for sure that he did. And also, I like flawed yet noble characters. People striving to be good but not afraid to take what they want or have a greater goal that can't be achieved through pure means. Goody two shoe characters get dull after a while but I also find characters like Zevran to be overboard. Rhaegar seems about right for me, noble and good yet has a higher purpose he's willing to achieve by any means necessary. 

[daveliam]

Okay. Now I understand better what people would like to see with an LI, especially that now I can see why Alistair is considered as a white knight hero. Thanks for the answers. I can support the thread now and the OP. Regardless of my curiosity, it is true that we haven't seen much this trope for gay characters ( according to what I read ), so I'm all for that in the future if possible.

Glad to be of help. I think the closest we've had is Kaiden, who, despite being the ME equivalent of the Mage class, fits most of the criteria.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I could see something like that making for some interesting storytelling.

 

And it's always nice to have a character around whose strongest characteristic is their desire to do "noble, good and right." It's kind of an important balance that got lost a little in the shuffle of extreme binary characters from DA 2.

[DragonRacer]

I'm not just a troll, I'm a FABULOUS troll.  

 

But I can be serious as well, and I am totally serious about this topic. 

 

I think Ares was referring to the poster I quoted who was poo-pooing the idea of you folks making suggestions, not that he was referring to YOU as a troll.

[sandalisthemaker]

I think Ares was referring to the poster I quoted who was poo-pooing the idea of you folks making suggestions, not that he was referring to YOU as a troll.

 

Yeah, I edited my post.  lol

[Semyaza82]

Ooh, I think Alistair has the whole package.

Must... resist... urge... to make smutty joke about Alistair's package...

[Medhia_Nox]

I don't have a problem with either Dorian or IB really.  I am sure both are interesting characters.

 

However - with Dorian, I feel like there's a lot of bombastic fabulous behavior... and I feel it's a bit of a "done trope".  Yes, also that he is a mage who likes to sit around luxuriously.  There's nothing inherently wrong with any of that... but "fop" isn't the most appealing archetype to me (I found myself staring at Cullen the entire time during their chess match). 

 

I applaud them for not making IB classically handsome in the face... and while that chest is something I'd like to eat a seven course meal off of - the fact that he's being touted as the guy who will sleep with anything and is hedonistic and again... outlandishly bombastic... has my interest on "cool"

 

===

 

I think I'd add:  "Boy next door" to my previous list.

 

Maybe even someone slightly dense about innuendo... uncomfortable with "sexy" - without being a prude (though prude "can" be sexy - no seriously!)

 

Someone a little less "worldly" without being dumb.

 

Alistair has some of these qualities - but I think it goes on too long and he genuinely fits in the "dumb" category in my opinion. 

[Sylvianus]

I'm glad I asked the question. Such good answers.

 

I know better what people consider a white knight hero, and I didn't think that way about Alistair, so it's nice to see different news. For me Alistair is a nice and a loyal guy who is also awkward, funny, refuses to take his responsabilies ( in my playthrough at least and unhardened )  a great friend, but not a great leader ( didn't want to be king, didn't want to lead the grey warden surving the battles and who is eager to follow ), and who can be also selfish at times ( Eamon and his family ) ( Loghain, his brother and the throne )  So that's why I was surprised about Alistair. But like I said, different perspectives is all good. =)

[Lieutenant Kurin]

There was little to no homophobia in Mass Effect. Considering Dragon Age is a fantasy rather than science fiction, you would think they would have even more room to make a less homophobic world.

Mass Effect was meant to represent utopia, and it didn't vastly differ from our world. Thedas is meant to be a different world altogether, and thus if it differs too highly from our world, it can lead to lack of believability . I know it sounds silly, but it happens. Thedas already has magic, matriarchies and oxmen. I suppose homophobia is the tipping point. (Especially when Andrastianism is close to Christianity).

 

To be honest though, it really doesn't matter. This is the world, that for what ever reason, BioWare has chosen to tell Dragon Age's stories in. Sigh...

[Statare]

Here are just some things I've thought about the White Knight trope and particularly in relation to BioWare.

 

White Knight characters tend to be connected to the overarching plot of the story, and thus be "forced" companions or ones you can't get rid of until the end. They also, disproportionately have their personal life involved in the main plot (Alistair and the Landsmeet, Carth and his thing with that Admiral guy who killed his family, Aveline and Donnic, and others I'm probably forgetting). It makes sense like this because the archetypal "white knight" is that actual knight who rescues a Princess and marries her to become King. So their personal "quest" is involved in the overall "plot" of the future of the kingdom. Often times their personal quest IS the overarching plot. In BioWare games, they tend to be the character who the story might focus on if the story did not have to accommodate the Player Character. DA:O is, unfortunately, the best example BioWare has done of this trope, because of Alistair, the way his personal development is handled is undistinguishable from the plot at times (the Landsmeet, Redcliffe), and the way he's become a "face" of the story (showing up in, potentially, all three games, and having his own comic series, where he usurps both player characters by palling around with both the Warden and Hawke's companions). Unfortunately, I can't see any company, not even BioWare, making a s/s white knight on the same level as Alistair.

 

But I support AT LEAST a lessor white knight s/s character (like possibly Cullen, possibly Cassandra (if they do not end up being full-fledged white knights)) and would be oh-so-giddy if a s/s romance was ever treated on the same level of plot-centrality as some of the straight romances have been in the series (Alistair, Aveline).

[witchknights]

Must... resist... urge... to make smutty joke about Alistair's package...

oh no, my gross fangirling betrays me yet again!

[Sylvianus]

We have no proof of that except by Robert's words and he was obviously salty. Not saying Rhaegar didn't do it, but that no one can say for sure that he did. And also, I like flawed yet noble characters. People striving to be good but not afraid to take what they want or have a greater goal that can't be achieved through pure means. Goody two shoe characters get dull after a while but I also find characters like Zevran to be overboard. Rhaegar seems about right for me, noble and good yet has a higher purpose he's willing to achieve by any means necessary. 

 

I wasn't thinking Robert's words as proof, but the thoughts of Ned Stark about his sister. Ned Stark is a man of Honor. He wouldn't think in such way if he wasn't sure. He discovered the bloody body of his sister ready to die. So he probably knew what happened by her words while Rhaegar was fleeing.

 

I also like flaws as well, so I agree. Just that someone raping a girl couldn't be a knight in shinning armor for me. 

 

edit : also actually, Robert never said that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, just that he stole her from him and killed her. 

[sandalisthemaker]

I don't have a problem with either Dorian or IB really.  I am sure both are interesting characters.

 

However - with Dorian, I feel like there's a lot of bombastic fabulous behavior... and I feel it's a bit of a "done trope".  Yes, also that he is a mage who likes to sit around luxuriously.  There's nothing inherently wrong with any of that... but "fop" isn't the most appealing archetype to me (I found myself staring at Cullen the entire time during their chess match). 

 

I applaud them for not making IB classically handsome in the face... and while that chest is something I'd like to eat a seven course meal off of - the fact that he's being touted as the guy who will sleep with anything and is hedonistic and again... outlandishly bombastic... has my interest on "cool"

 

===

 

I think I'd add:  "Boy next door" to my previous list.

 

Maybe even someone slightly dense about innuendo... uncomfortable with "sexy" - without being a prude (though prude "can" be sexy - no seriously!)

 

Someone a little less "worldly" without being dumb.

 

Alistair has some of these qualities - but I think it goes on too long and he genuinely fits in the "dumb" category in my opinion. 

 

I love fabulous, flamboyant flare, but I also want someone who is the total opposite to be made available as well.  Variety is great. 

 

A gay guy who is totally not flamboyant and by the books masculine is very rare in media.   Much more common IRL.

[Lieutenant Kurin]

I love fabulous, flamboyant flare, but I also want someone who is the total opposite to be made available as well.  Variety is great. 

 

A gay guy who is totally not flamboyant and by the books masculine is very rare. 

Dude..., I'm right here. I also want to be a dad someday, settle down, get a mortgage . I kid, but the fact that masculine gay men who want families are so rare, even in LGBT-accepting fiction is unnerving. And bothers the crap out of me. I keep asking, why must every gay character be about the sass or the sex? Not that either is bad, it's just that the overwhelming 'representation' of gay men is 'the sass', 'the sex addict', 'the gay friend'. I get asked why I'm not happy about gay representation, and my answer is that I haven't really been represented. The majority of gays depicted on any screen, big or small, feel wildly alien to me.

[daveliam]

I love fabulous, flamboyant flare, but I also want someone who is the total opposite to be made available as well. Variety is great.

A gay guy who is totally not flamboyant and by the books masculine is very rare in media. Much more common IRL.

I totally agree with you.

I very consciously did not use the term 'masculine' because I know it brings a lot of baggage with it in the gay community. But it is related a bit for me. There really aren't very many 'by the books' masculine gay guys in media, especially in video games. And the white knight trope is a way to explore that story and character.

They don't have to be linked for me, though. I would be really happy with a masculine boy-next-door type (think male Bethany, but 'typically' masculine) and a slightly flamboyant white knight as the next batch of LIs!

[sandalisthemaker]

I totally agree with you.

I very consciously did not use the term 'masculine' because I know it brings a lot of baggage with it in the gay community. But it is related a bit for me. There really aren't very many 'by the books' masculine gay guys in media, especially in video games. And the white knight trope is a way to explore that story and character.

They don't have to be linked for me, though. I would be really happy with a masculine boy-next-door type (think male Bethany, but 'typically' masculine) and a slightly flamboyant white knight as the next batch of LIs!

 

Yeah, I hear you about the baggage that comes with the word.  What I mean is the type of character who goes against all the stereotypes. 

[Maugrim]

Very well put, sandal, this is something I have felt for a very long time but have not always been able to express well and politely.  So I went ahead and tweeted this thread David and Patrick, and the latter at least favorited the tweet.    If you expanded this example to all Bioware games I would almost slide Ashley Williams into your examples but I can see how some may not view her as fully of the archetype.

[daveliam]

Yeah, I hear you about the baggage that comes with the word. What I mean is the type of character who goes against all the stereotypes.

I totally get you. I just wanted to clarify my thoughts on it if I end up using that term in the future. I think Kurin hit the nail in the head: it's about representation for a subset of the community that is ignored in the media a lot.

I hate to use this thread as therapy but I wonder if my fascination and connection to this type of character has helped shaped my personality. I see myself represented in this archetype (I've been accused of being both a SJW and do-gooder) but the story being told is always a straight one so it excludes me. I tend to play as this type of character but I'm interested in seeing what it would be like to in a romance with this type of character AS a guy.

[sandalisthemaker]

Very well put, sandal, this is something I have felt for a very long time but have not always been able to express well and politely.  So I went ahead and tweeted this thread David and Patrick, and the latter at least favorited the tweet.    If you expanded this example to all Bioware games I would almost slide Ashley Williams into your examples but I can see how some may not view her as fully of the archetype.

 

Oh wow. Thanks a bunch!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, I hope you all get what you want. The fact one of the devs liked the tweet about the thread shows they are still expanding their horizons in representing homosexuals. 

[Lieutenant Kurin]

I totally get you. I just wanted to clarify my thoughts on it if I end up using that term in the future. I think Kurin hit the nail in the head: it's about representation for a subset of the community that is ignored in the media a lot.

I hate to use this thread as therapy but I wonder if my fascination and connection to this type of character has helped shaped my personality. I see myself represented in this archetype (I've been accused of being both a SJW and do-gooder) but the story being told is always a straight one so it excludes me. I tend to play as this type of character but I'm interested in seeing what it would be like to in a romance with this type of character AS a guy.

 

Awwww..... I like hitting nails with my full sized hammer (that's right, I own one and can use it and everything)! But yeah, I feel your pain, literally. Where are the guy gets the guy stories? Where are the two dads teaching their son or daughter how to play soccer? Where have all the good, gay, men gone? I need a hero despite the fact I'm one dammit! (Have you guys seen that alternate universe storyline where Wolverine and Hercules are dating?)

 

Phew... I needed that release. 

[Semyaza82]

I'm signing off for the night, but wanted to say that I love this thread - so nice to have this kind discussion and have people making thoughtful and intelligent points, all while actually being polite and respectful to each other. Do be careful though, keep it up and the internet may break

[daveliam]

Awwww..... I like hitting nails with my full sized hammer (that's right, I own one and can use it and everything)! But yeah, I feel your pain, literally. Where are the guy gets the guy stories? Where are the two dads teaching their son or daughter how to play soccer? Where have all the good, gay, men gone? I need a hero despite the fact I'm one dammit! (Have you guys seen that alternate universe storyline where Wolverine and Hercules are dating?)

Phew... I needed that release.

Ha! My husband and I BOTH brought full tool sets to the marriage!

SJW means social justice warrior. It's meant as a slur but I've started wearing it as a badge of honor because I feel like I'm fighting for worthy causes. Stupid white knight complex....

[Lieutenant Kurin]

Ha! My husband and I BOTH brought full tool sets to the marriage!

SJW means social justice warrior. It's meant as a slur but I've started wearing it as a badge of honor because I feel like I'm fighting for worthy causes. Stupid white knight complex....

I figured it out, hence the ninja removal  . I have to admit though, I'm a little jealous. The most common slur I get is 'terrorist'. Hard to swing that... except 'Do you really think you should by provoking the terrorist then?' Joking as a defense mechanism! Better than punches! 

 

EDIT: And most of my tools are broken, good to know a full set is required for marriage... I'll just add that to the list! .

Modifié par Lieutenant Kurin, 24 octobre 2014 - 09:27 .

[Medhia_Nox]

And I think it's important to remember that it's not like it can never be a "mage" or "elf" or "rogue" - even those types can be made to be different.

 

A mage who is a little bit broader - taller - and perhaps dresses even a bit plainly.  Is both bookish and athletic - occasionally clears a dorm room for some sporting game with mages and Templars - maybe even has a Templar he likes to spar with (and, of course, had a relationship with BUT the Templar was tragically killed when a Harrowing went horribly wrong - hey, gotta make room for me right?) 

 

An elf who perhaps a little more reserved - is a City Elf who doesn't mind pitching in and getting dirty (and what city elf doesn't get dirty) - and is genuinely a "glass half full" fellow looking to uplift his people by being uplifting and not constantly trying to call to violent, hate or anger.

 

A rogue - let's go dwarf (variety is supposed to be good) - maybe from the Noble family who prefers to spend his days out in the Deep Roads leading his warriors fighting Darkspawn than he does indulging in politicking.  When he returns - he is the beloved son who is savvy to the ways of his ambitious brothers - but manages only so far as to undermine them. 

 

I dunno - something similar to these maybe would make even overly familiar tropes fresh again.