Hmmm.... I don't know how I would feel about that. That's interesting. A DLC-only gay KISA who can be flirted with. Although I would lament not having them for the full game, I'd still welcome that. Although, hopefully the similarity between this hypothetical character and Tallis ends with DLC only and flirt-able. Lol
Tallis is the anti-KISA so I'm pretty sure you're just fighting the hypothetical now. 
So... what's up? Any news?
I get where you're coming from, and I would be 100% no reservations or hesitations thrilled for a gay KISA over a bisexual one, but the idea that a bisexual one doesn't fit In to this thread as much because some people would default them to straight is basically to me reading like the same bi erasure we get from the queer community all the time so I'm feeling wary about agreeing with that. Of course I would want them to be explicitly bisexual, and then people reading them as straight would be their own ignorant fault.
And bisexual men as manly is not a thing. So it would still feel subversive for me.
Like honestly I would prefer a gay/lesbian KISA over a bisexual one but I'm not really comfortable with creating a hierarchy there, that's all.
Well put.
Question. What doesn't Dorian count as a Knight-Shining-Armor character? Beside the obvious that he isn't a warrior or use a sword or wear armor, which are mostly entirely superficial, the man still has several of the values and themes that are common in a KISA character.
Believes in helping the weak. Check.
Refuses to serve in, or be a part of, a corrupt land. Check.
Is polite and well-read. Check.
Wants to redeem something. Check.
Risks own life for the sake of ours. Check.
Has a personal code of ethics and standards that are strongly opposed to evil. Check.
Believes in an idealist dream of how the world should be. Check.
Wants a truly romantic relationship. Check.
Wears the best and most fashionable cloths. Check.
Is a noble. Check.
Is an exiled noble. Check.
Incredibility handsome. Double Check.
So, yeah, he doesn't swing a sword or wear shining white armor (he does wear shining white cloth armor though) but he still embodies the far more important aspects of a KISA character. So why doesn't he get the title?
I think it's the personality. He's too...full of himself? He fits the archetype of the dashing rogue more then the shining knight.Question. What doesn't Dorian count as a Knight-Shining-Armor character? Beside the obvious that he isn't a warrior or use a sword or wear armor, which are mostly entirely superficial, the man still has several of the values and themes that are common in a KISA character.
Believes in helping the weak. Check.
Refuses to serve in, or be a part of, a corrupt land. Check.
Is polite and well-read. Check.
Wants to redeem something. Check.
Risks own life for the sake of ours. Check.
Has a personal code of ethics and standards that are strongly opposed to evil. Check.
Believes in an idealist dream of how the world should be. Check.
Wants a truly romantic relationship. Check.
Wears the best and most fashionable cloths. Check.
Is a noble. Check.
Is an exiled noble. Check.
Incredibility handsome. Double Check.
So, yeah, he doesn't swing a sword or wear shining white armor (he does wear shining white cloth armor though) but he still embodies the far more important aspects of a KISA character. So why doesn't he get the title?
I think it comes to Dorian's personality which is not commonly associated with a typical KISA character. For me, I am looking for a KISA who is more reserved and less experienced when it comes to romance and sex. My KISA will stand strong and confident for his moral values but is awkward when it comes to personal things. He is more dull in his conversation but has a soft corner when you get to really know him.
I think ultimately what I really want to see is more variety in gay characters.
Question. What doesn't Dorian count as a Knight-Shining-Armor character? Beside the obvious that he isn't a warrior or use a sword or wear armor, which are mostly entirely superficial, the man still has several of the values and themes that are common in a KISA character.
Believes in helping the weak. Check.
Refuses to serve in, or be a part of, a corrupt land. Check.
Is polite and well-read. Check.
Wants to redeem something. Check.
Risks own life for the sake of ours. Check.
Has a personal code of ethics and standards that are strongly opposed to evil. Check.
Believes in an idealist dream of how the world should be. Check.
Wants a truly romantic relationship. Check.
Wears the best and most fashionable cloths. Check.
Is a noble. Check.
Is an exiled noble. Check.
Incredibility handsome. Double Check.
So, yeah, he doesn't swing a sword or wear shining white armor (he does wear shining white cloth armor though) but he still embodies the far more important aspects of a KISA character. So why doesn't he get the title?
Agreed with what Charlie and Jake (hey, two first names!) said. I'd also say that the list of things that you put int here aren't all necessarily KISA traits. For examples, the last four aren't really necessary. I don't think a KISA needs to be fashionable, noble, exiled, or handsome (although, I'm sure I'll get some pushback on that last one...... ). I think that there are a bunch of traits that a KISA could have. Dorian checks some of those off, but he's just too arrogant and cocky and 'dashing' in my opinion. I see KISAs being humble as well as the things that you listed earlier (selfless, ethical, polite, redeemer, etc.).
Dorian's great, don't get me wrong. And he does have that fantastic "Don't worry, I'll protect you" line in Redcliffe <swoon>. But I think he's more in line with Robin Hood than Sir Lancelot. Even though we all agree that being a knight isn't necessary (after all, Sebastian fits that trope to a degree as well), it certainly doesn't help Dorian's cause that he's a mage, as well. I think if a mage were to be a KISA, he'd have to fit the rest of the traits to a tee in order to make up for the fact that he's a mage.
Just my opinion, though. And, to be fair, Kaidan is a 'mage' (equivalent) in ME, but I would say that he counts because he's still a soldier, as well as embodying the KISA attributes whole-heartedly. If there were a mercenary or battlemage who acted like a KISA in all other ways, I'm sure we'd probably count him.
I think it's the personality. He's too...full of himself? He fits the archetype of the dashing rogue more then the shining knight.
Sure Dorian is fully of himself, but so is Ser Loras, the defining example of gay KISA's. Hell, Sebastian could be pretty full of himself as well.
I think it comes to Dorian's personality which is not commonly associated with a typical KISA character. For me, I am looking for a KISA who is more reserved and less experienced when it comes to romance and sex. My KISA will stand strong and confident for his moral values but is awkward when it comes to personal things. He is more dull in his conversation but has a soft corner when you get to really know him.
I think ultimately what I really want to see is more variety in gay characters.
Sounds more like a personal set of wants in a love interest then actually KISA archetype, but I if that's what you want I can't argue with you.
I just feel some people don't see that Dorian's very much inclined with a lot of the tropes associated with KISA, but don't see him as such because he's a mage. Which as I've managed seems rather superficial. The man embodies the spirit if not the iconography of the trope.
I just feel some people don't see that Dorian's very much inclined with a lot of the tropes associated with KISA, but don't see him as such because he's a mage. Which as I've managed seems rather superficial. The man embodies the spirit if not the iconography of the trope.
Well, that's the thing. It's a trope, so there's room to play with it. There's no single set of traits that a KISA needs to have. So, some people might look at Dorian and see a KISA. Others don't.
When you look at the characters that we call KISA's in DA (Alistair, Aveline, Cassandra, Sebastian, Cullen, Blackwall - "Blackwall", not Thomas Ranier, if that makes sense), there are some things that they all have in common:
* They are all combat warriors (with the exception of Sebastian, who is ranged, they are all front-line sword and board warriors)
* They are all the "moral" characters. They refrain from excess and indulgences. They aren't the hedonistic drinkers and casual sex group (although several of them have moments where they 'let loose"). And, when it comes to romance, they are all romantic at heart, but terribly unsure of themselves in that realm.
* They all work towards their internal personal noble goals. They are all "defend the poor" types, but none of them are rebels (the closest would be Cassandra, but even her rebellion is controlled and within religious purposes). To me, a KISA is a redeemer, not a rebel. It's the difference between Lawful Good and Chaotic Good. KISA's are lawful.
Dorian doesn't really fit any of those to me. He's pampered nobility. He's cheeky and flirtatious and inappropriate in conversations. He not only fears temptation (which could be a KISA quality), but gives into it. He's a Bacchanal. He likes excess and drinking and casual sex. And, while he's certainly striving to redeem his homeland, his approach is a more rebellious one. He's not one that I would call "Lawful" in his alignment. And, again, he's a scholarly mage. Not a knight enchanter. Not a battle mage. He's a support class, really.
So, to me, that's the fundamental difference. It's subjective, obviously, so you might not agree. But to me, that list of KISA characters all have one other thing in common: they are all straight. In fact, outside of Morrigan and Solas, they are all of the straight LI's (discounting Aveline, obviously). I, and the other supporters of the thread, would just like to see that type of character be gay in the next game. That's all. Hope that makes sense.
* They are all combat warriors (with the exception of Sebastian, who is ranged, they are all front-line sword and board warriors)
* They are all the "moral" characters. They refrain from excess and indulgences. They aren't the hedonistic drinkers and casual sex group (although several of them have moments where they 'let loose"). And, when it comes to romance, they are all romantic at heart, but terribly unsure of themselves in that realm.
* They all work towards their internal personal noble goals. They are all "defend the poor" types, but none of them are rebels (the closest would be Cassandra, but even her rebellion is controlled and within religious purposes). To me, a KISA is a redeemer, not a rebel. It's the difference between Lawful Good and Chaotic Good. KISA's are lawful.
Dorian doesn't really fit any of those to me. He's pampered nobility. He's cheeky and flirtatious and inappropriate in conversations. He not only fears temptation (which could be a KISA quality), but gives into it. He's a Bacchanal. He likes excess and drinking and casual sex. And, while he's certainly striving to redeem his homeland, his approach is a more rebellious one. He's not one that I would call "Lawful" in his alignment. And, again, he's a scholarly mage. Not a knight enchanter. Not a battle mage. He's a support class, really.
Thank you for this. I have been trying to explain to myself why Dorian does not fit my idea of KISA, and your post does that.
Agreed with what Charlie and Jake (hey, two first names!) said. I'd also say that the list of things that you put int here aren't all necessarily KISA traits. For examples, the last four aren't really necessary. I don't think a KISA needs to be fashionable, noble, exiled, or handsome (although, I'm sure I'll get some pushback on that last one......
Dorian's great, don't get me wrong. And he does have that fantastic "Don't worry, I'll protect you" line in Redcliffe <swoon>. But I think he's more in line with Robin Hood than Sir Lancelot. Even though we all agree that being a knight isn't necessary (after all, Sebastian fits that trope to a degree as well), it certainly doesn't help Dorian's cause that he's a mage, as well. I think if a mage were to be a KISA, he'd have to fit the rest of the traits to a tee in order to make up for the fact that he's a mage.
Just my opinion, though. And, to be fair, Kaidan is a 'mage' (equivalent) in ME, but I would say that he counts because he's still a soldier, as well as embodying the KISA attributes whole-heartedly. If there were a mercenary or battlemage who acted like a KISA in all other ways, I'm sure we'd probably count him.
If we get a non-handsome KISA I am so going to hold you to account for it. Personally.
I just feel some people don't see that Dorian's very much inclined with a lot of the tropes associated with KISA, but don't see him as such because he's a mage. Which as I've managed seems rather superficial. The man embodies the spirit if not the iconography of the trope.
Well, that's the thing. It's a trope, so there's room to play with it. There's no single set of traits that a KISA needs to have. So, some people might look at Dorian and see a KISA. Others don't.
When you look at the characters that we call KISA's in DA (Alistair, Aveline, Cassandra, Sebastian, Cullen, Blackwall - "Blackwall", not Thomas Ranier, if that makes sense), there are some things that they all have in common:
* They are all combat warriors (with the exception of Sebastian, who is ranged, they are all front-line sword and board warriors)
* They are all the "moral" characters. They refrain from excess and indulgences. They aren't the hedonistic drinkers and casual sex group (although several of them have moments where they 'let loose"). And, when it comes to romance, they are all romantic at heart, but terribly unsure of themselves in that realm.
* They all work towards their internal personal noble goals. They are all "defend the poor" types, but none of them are rebels (the closest would be Cassandra, but even her rebellion is controlled and within religious purposes). To me, a KISA is a redeemer, not a rebel. It's the difference between Lawful Good and Chaotic Good. KISA's are lawful.
Dorian doesn't really fit any of those to me. He's pampered nobility. He's cheeky and flirtatious and inappropriate in conversations. He not only fears temptation (which could be a KISA quality), but gives into it. He's a Bacchanal. He likes excess and drinking and casual sex. And, while he's certainly striving to redeem his homeland, his approach is a more rebellious one. He's not one that I would call "Lawful" in his alignment. And, again, he's a scholarly mage. Not a knight enchanter. Not a battle mage. He's a support class, really.
So, to me, that's the fundamental difference. It's subjective, obviously, so you might not agree. But to me, that list of KISA characters all have one other thing in common: they are all straight. In fact, outside of Morrigan and Solas, they are all of the straight LI's (discounting Aveline, obviously). I, and the other supporters of the thread, would just like to see that type of character be gay in the next game. That's all. Hope that makes sense.
THIS TOOK YOU 76 PAGES. I AM DISAPPOINTED. ALSO I AM YELLING FOR NO GOOD REASON.
But yes, Dorian is far too arrogant and cocky. And the reason why it's important to discount him is because that's something we've already gotten, Zevran was every bit the dashing rogue... but we never get the knight, never the super-moral do-gooder, the gentle hearted. And it kills me. All the characters I most wish I could romance are all Knights, and they are all straight. I mean, every time someone tells me to "just roll a female", I say "YES, I get it, I know what to do, I've done it the last 10 times thank you very much", because it's literally that common. Talking strictly BioWare, there's always been a KISA, in every game, and they've always been straight (if romanceable). It kills me.
But you know the real reason we can say it's never been done before? The fact that when a Knight in Shining Armour comes around, he (or even she, because this happens to Aveline too) is always assumed to be straight. Literally, even before Cullen was deemed to be straight, BEFORE THE GAME CAME OUT, one of the most common reasons people called him straight was because "I just can't imagine someone like him to be gay, I just can't". Not that he crushes on the female magi origin, not any proof from previous games, but that his personality as a strong, somewhat tropey 'white knight' is impossible for a huge community to imagine as into men. And the reason is obvious: there's no media examples of one. Almost literally none. Every major gay character to date has a bit of flamboyance, a touch of arrogance, a flair for out of this world fashion that excludes them from being the everyman, the hero we all read about in children's fairytales. And before i get called bigoted, flamboyance and being fashion forward is fine (so is a bit of ego), but we see them ALL THE TIME. There are gay (and bi) men and women out there which have none of those traits, who are unambiguously moral, who are the good dads and the average who get our existence mocked, denied and sidelined due to the media's slow acceptance of the fact that being gay, or interested in the same gender, has nothing to do with personality.
It's very much like the portrayal of women a few years ago, though still carried today. Men who like men may want to be the clear protagonist of their own stories, be the Knight in Shining Armour, but we are constantly told that we are the one in the tower, the sidekick or the 'unlikely hero'. And it's exhausting.
EDIT: Also, daveliam is my spirit animal. That is all.
I don't recall Ser Loras telling everyone how handsome he is and we'll dressed he is and blah blah. (But yes, Loras is stuck up)Sure Dorian is fully of himself, but so is Ser Loras, the defining example of gay KISA's. Hell, Sebastian could be pretty full of himself as well.
Sounds more like a personal set of wants in a love interest then actually KISA archetype, but I if that's what you want I can't argue with you.
I just feel some people don't see that Dorian's very much inclined with a lot of the tropes associated with KISA, but don't see him as such because he's a mage. Which as I've managed seems rather superficial. The man embodies the spirit if not the iconography of the trope.
First off, really glad this thread is going strong 
Second thought I'd add my 2 cents on Dorian and if he's a KISA or not. I'm gonna have to go with him being not - for pretty much all the reasons Dave listed.
The KISA as a trope isn't just a 'good person',someone with a clear set off (non evil) ethics, or even someone willing to risk them self to defend the innocent. If that was all it took then Wynne, Leliana (at least in DAO), Carver and even Merrill would all fit. There is an element of both purity and purpose to the character (again Dave explains it better than I am here).
So basically Dorian = cool character, good guy but not a KISA for me.
And the reason is obvious: there's no media examples of one. Almost literally none.
Southland.
Dorian is awesome and he has some of the characteristics, but like others have said, he doesn't have the personality to match what I'm asking for in this thread.
Plus, I would really want the KISA to be a warrior. The only non-straight warrior in DA has been Fenris, who I like as well, but he doesn't have the personality or the convictions of a KISA. He's kind of an anti-KISA.
Also, 100 likes! Thanks everyone!
Also, 100 likes! Thanks everyone!
Congratulations. 
I wish my thread could hit 100 likes.
Nope. Just still chillin' here loving Cullen and Blackwall from a distance. You know.....same old shizz.
Staring through their window isn't from a distance 
Nope. Just still chillin' here loving Cullen and Blackwall from a distance. You know.....same old shizz.
When you told me that they decided to keep Cullen straight, I was incredibly disappointed. I was under the impression he'd be an option for guys and I don't think that'd be unfair in the slightest. I think it's unfair that they decided not to go with that idea even though it was in the works (to my knowledge)
With that said, I'd prefer a bisexual knight in shining armor myself for variety options. My only justification for this is that I'm not offended when my significant other leers at girls (when I had one). We could be pervs together. I don't want to take away from your desire for a gay knight in shining armor however because it would be unique to the universe.
edit: I will say..
If it had anything to do with fear of angry privileged dudes (like me when I was going on about desire demons) making a stink on the forums, as sad as it would be, I could understand why they'd hesitate. I really do feel bad about cullen.
Southland.
'Almost literally none', so I'm still right! Mwahaha. (Plus I don't watch Southland).
Staring through their window isn't from a distance
I just go to Cullen's office, climb the ladder and just hang out there. It's a really cool looking space, and requires no loading screen (unlike my frickin bedroom for no apparent reason)!
When you told me that they decided to keep Cullen straight, I was incredibly disappointed. I was under the impression he'd be an option for guys and I don't think that'd be unfair in the slightest. I think it's unfair that they decided not to go with that idea even though it was in the works (to my knowledge)
With that said, I'd prefer a bisexual knight in shining armor myself for variety options. My only justification for this is that I'm not offended when my significant other leers at girls (when I had one). We could be pervs together. I don't want to take away from your desire for a gay knight in shining armor however because it would be unique to the universe.
edit: I will say..
If it had anything to do with fear of angry privileged dudes (like me when I was going on about desire demons) making a stink on the forums, as sad as it would be, I could understand why they'd hesitate. I really do feel bad about Cullen.
Yeah, considering every known fan of Cullen would've loved him being bi (or been totally indifferent, seriously just ask anyone in the Cullen thread), it makes the decision just hit right in the feel bads. Sometimes I wish that that voice track had never have been found so we could've been allowed to assume it was never a possibility. Would've lessened the blow. Plus his romance is literally the best.
'Almost literally none', so I'm still right! Mwahaha. (Plus I don't watch Southland).
Nobody said you weren't but you are missing on a very non-typical masculine gay main character there.
(he is also sort of like Cullen)
Nobody said you weren't but you are missing on a very non-typical masculine gay main character there.
(he is also sort of like Cullen)
Maybe I should start watching then .
Maybe I should start watching then
You should, it's pretty good show, if you can find it that is, it run from 2009-2013 for 5 seasons.
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