7132 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I didn't call you sexist, I called you heterosexist. If you don't understand what heterosexism is, and assuming people are straight when they haven't identified as such is a primary example, that's not my problem.

 

And the fictional character argument completely undermines any sort of analysis and interpretation of characters on any level. All characters are just writing constructs, if you're not willing to suspend disbelief, there's not point in discussing them.

Calling someone a heterosexist is implying they are a supporter of heterosexism, which is seen as a type of discrimination. So immediately calling someone that sure isn't being neutral. It is actually somewhat ironic and/or hypocritical since accusing someone of heterosexism is in fact a form of heterosexism since it is assuming the person is a heterosexual. 

[DanteYoda]

Does this game have a massive homosexual following? just wondering..

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Calling someone a heterosexist is implying they are a supporter of heterosexism, which is seen as a type of discrimination. So immediately calling someone that sure isn't being neutral. It is actually somewhat ironic and/or hypocritical since accusing someone of heterosexism is in fact a form of heterosexism since it is assuming the person is a heterosexual. 

People say discriminatory things all the time unknowingly. One misstep doesn't make a person irredeemable. And heterosexism isn't exclusive to to straight people, queer people can perpetuate it too. I've known plenty of gay men who engage in varying degrees of homphobia, for example.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Does this game have a massive homosexual following? just wondering..

Bioware most likely a lot larger of one than most other AAA developers, so probably yes. 

 

 

People say discriminatory things all the time unknowingly. One misstep doesn't make a person irredeemable. And heterosexism isn't exclusive to to straight people, queer people can perpetuate it too. I've known plenty of gay men who engage in varying degrees of homphobia, for example.

I never said otherwise. People make mistakes about things all the time, especially about things they can't know. This includes things like someone's sexuality or the gender they identify as. That's why I don't see things like mistaking those things as some sort of prejudice like heterosexism and things like it is. People can't read minds, so they can only operate on the data they have. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Does this game have a massive homosexual following? just wondering..

 

Pretty much. Just like how it has a particularly high percentage of women in the fan base, people tend to flock to things where they feel included and represented. I specifically bought both ME3 and DA2 on a lark because I read that you can have a gay protagonist. I just happened to be lucky and genuinely enjoy the games beyond that.

[Lieutenant Kurin]

Bisexuality does not mean one is attracted to both genders equally and acts the same around them. Assuming Cullen was straight just from his DA:O cameo would be reasonable but by no means certain. Most bisexuals have a preference, and it's not like other bisexuals in Dragon Age haven't illustrated that. Leliana has a marked preference for women, while Josephine has one for men. If Cullen HAD been bisexual, all the files gone through, he would have had a preference for women, and that's OK.

 

Plus, I still believe Kaidan is more biromantic and heterosexual, because falling in love is never about someone's parts (not to mention he doesn't call a male Shep sexy from my experience), and you know what? That's OK too. Shepard and Kaidan (provided the latter is alive), have been through the equivalent of hell together twice, and a huge confrontation on Horizon too. It makes sense that they would care for each other more and more, and eventually realize they thought of the other as more than friends. It's why I love the Kaidan romance.

[DirkJake]

Pretty much. Just like how it has a particularly high percentage of women in the fan base, people tend to flock to things where they feel included and represented. I specifically bought both ME3 and DA2 on a lark because I read that you can have a gay protagonist. I just happened to be lucky and genuinely enjoy the games beyond that.

 

Same for me. I was reading some review about inclusiveness of Bioware games, and the next hour I found myself bought all DA and ME games.

Now if the next game has a gay KISA, my dream will be completed.

[In Exile]

Bisexuality does not mean one is attracted to both genders equally and acts the same around them. Assuming Cullen was straight just from his DA:O cameo would be reasonable but by no means certain. Most bisexuals have a preference, and it's not like other bisexuals in Dragon Age haven't illustrated that. Leliana has a marked preference for women, while Josephine has one for men. If Cullen HAD been bisexual, all the files gone through, he would have had a preference for women, and that's OK.

Plus, I still believe Kaidan is more biromantic and heterosexual, because falling in love is never about someone's parts (not to mention he doesn't call a male Shep sexy from my experience), and you know what? That's OK too. Shepard and Kaidan (provided the latter is alive), have been through the equivalent of hell together twice, and a huge confrontation on Horizon too. It makes sense that they would care for each other more and more, and eventually realize they thought of the other as more than friends. It's why I love the Kaidan romance.

I need to point out that preference is not so simple a thing as I prefer one gender to another. It may well be - I can't speak for everyone - but it can also have to do with physical build, facial features, etc. It's not like every straight person is attracted equally to all persons of the opposite gender.

There's an important difference between (1) the writers not directing their mind to the NPC not being anything other than straight, because social reasons and (2) the *players* assuming an NPC is straight because of their outwards attraction to the opposite gender.

Cullen's writer may have written him as straight. But the player can't know that. The player can only see what's in-game. And in that regard the player may be making inferences based on cultural conventions that are grounded in the dominant views (i.e. we infer sexuality from outward preference). Josie is an example here: look at the bisexual thread, and the people questioning it.

[daveliam]

Yeah, I can't see any immediate solution to the "they must be playersexual or have been retconned unless they specifically state they are bisexual from the moment that they make their preferences known" thing.  Unfortunately, people in the real world still view bisexuality as a negative or made up construct.  People don't understand it and make a lot of wild assumptions about it.  That's what's influencing a lot of these comments.  Add to that the fact that people default to a heterocentric view because of societal expectations and that's why we continue to see these debates about characters.

 

It's kind of sad that we get stuck in this contradictory space:  If a LGBT character brings up their sexuality, then it's forced.  But if they don't, it's either not real or only conditionally real.  It's frustrating.  Zevran, Isabela, and Bull never have their sexuality questioned and it's because they are 'promiscuous bisexuals' who bring up sex all the time.  Fenris, Merrill, and Josephine have their sexuality questioned specifically because they don't bring it up.  Despite many of the same posters complaining that they want 'more realistic' characters, they continue to only accept bisexuals if they only fit into a single representation.

[9TailsFox]

Does this game have a massive homosexual following? just wondering..

This practically only AAA game who have romances, so probably yes.

[9TailsFox]

Yeah, I can't see any immediate solution to the "they must be playersexual or have been retconned unless they specifically state they are bisexual from the moment that they make their preferences known" thing.  Unfortunately, people in the real world still view bisexuality as a negative or made up construct.  People don't understand it and make a lot of wild assumptions about it.  That's what's influencing a lot of these comments.  Add to that the fact that people default to a heterocentric view because of societal expectations and that's why we continue to see these debates about characters.

 

It's kind of sad that we get stuck in this contradictory space:  If a LGBT character brings up their sexuality, then it's forced.  But if they don't, it's either not real or only conditionally real.  It's frustrating.  Zevran, Isabela, and Bull never have their sexuality questioned and it's because they are 'promiscuous bisexuals' who bring up sex all the time.  Fenris, Merrill, and Josephine have their sexuality questioned specifically because they don't bring it up.  Despite many of the same posters complaining that they want 'more realistic' characters, they continue to only accept bisexuals if they only fit into a single representation.

Zevran sexuality was questioned he prefer man much more than women or opposite I don't remember, it was big cry because of his past it look like he was forced because of his job.

[daveliam]

Zevran sexuality was questioned he prefer man much more than women or opposite I don't remember, it was big cry because of his past it look like he was forced because of his job.

The difference that I see isn't that people were questioning that he was bisexual. They were annoyed that he strongly preferred females to the point that it was awkward for a male to romance him. Most of us want to see bisexuals with a variety of preferences. The issue is that every single bisexual male LI has shown a preference for ladies. Bull is arguable, but he still pretty much only mentions gals outside of the Quizzie and Dorian.

With regard to his job, it's not that people were saying he wasn't bisexual, it was the implication that he's bisexual because of his job, as if a job can determine your sexuality. I've never seen anyone claim that he's not bisexual, but maybe I'm mistaken.

[Lieutenant Kurin]

I need to point out that preference is not so simple a thing as I prefer one gender to another. It may well be - I can't speak for everyone - but it can also have to do with physical build, facial features, etc. It's not like every straight person is attracted equally to all persons of the opposite gender.

There's an important difference between (1) the writers not directing their mind to the NPC not being anything other than straight, because social reasons and (2) the *players* assuming an NPC is straight because of their outwards attraction to the opposite gender.

Cullen's writer may have written him as straight. But the player can't know that. The player can only see what's in-game. And in that regard the player may be making inferences based on cultural conventions that are grounded in the dominant views (i.e. we infer sexuality from outward preference). Josie is an example here: look at the bisexual thread, and the people questioning it.

Yeah, absolutely, but I was trying to use in game examples, the only coded preferences in game have been by gender or sex and race. And I mentioned Josie too. Drives me nuts that unless a bisexual character hits on every possible person, they aren't considered bi by the general public, speaking as a bi man (with a heavy preference for men, which is why I identify with both gay and bi), I get how annoying it is.

 

The difference that I see isn't that people were questioning that he was bisexual. They were annoyed that he strongly preferred females to the point that it was awkward for a male to romance him. Most of us want to see bisexuals with a variety of preferences. The issue is that every single bisexual male LI has shown a preference for ladies. Bull is arguable, but he still pretty much only mentions gals outside of the Quizzie and Dorian.

With regard to his job, it's not that people were saying he wasn't bisexual, it was the implication that he's bisexual because of his job, as if a job can determine your sexuality. I've never seen anyone claim that he's not bisexual, but maybe I'm mistaken.

This is my exact problem with most bi male characters. It seems that often the reason is "I look beyond gender" (Anders...) or that "sometimes, but I prefer women" (Zevran and possibly Bull). But what are we gonna do?

[daveliam]

This is my exact problem with most bi male characters. It seems that often the reason is "I look beyond gender" (Anders...) or that "sometimes, but I prefer women" (Zevran and possibly Bull). But what are we gonna do?

 

Yeah, a summary of bisexual guys in Bioware games:

 

Sky (JE) - widowed with a child; approaches the male PC about why he isn't interested in the ladies; surprised by gay male PC, but eventually shows interest

Zevran (DA: O) - "promiscuous bisexual"; strong female preference; some interpret that the story implies that he 'became' bisexual because of his work

Anders (DA 2) - "retconned controversy"; strong female preference in DA: A; might be pansexual ("I fall in love with the person, not the body")

Fenris (DA 2) - no mention of his sexuality at all; ends up sleeping with Isabela if not romanced

Kaidan (ME 3) - "retconned controversy"; strong female preference in ME and ME3 (he likes asari alot)

Bull (DA: I) - "promiscuous bisexual"; actually pansexual; slight female preference; BDSM romance; ends up in a relationship with Dorian if not romanced

 

To be honest, because I feel that, outside of Sky and Fenris, the bisexual male LI's are either "promiscuous bisexuals" or "retconned straight guys", I'd much prefer to see a KISA be gay.  I was originally on the fence about it (and, to be honest, would still be thrilled if we got a bisexual male KISA), but the more I think of it, the more I'd like to see a KISA be gay.  I think that if a KISA were to be bisexual, people would just write it off as "fanservice" and view him (even if he were an original character) as written to be straight, but "made" bisexual because of this thread.  And, to be honest, I'm not confident that the writers would write him in a way that wouldn't make it seem like he's "straight except for PC", particularly given that they wouldn't be able to draw on the 'promiscuous bisexual' trope.

 

If they did make a male bisexual KISA, I'd really like him to have a strong male preference, just to break the cycle that male bisexuals really like women, but will be "gay for PC".  If they made him a chivalrous knight type, I think it could work. 

[DirkJake]

Yeah, a summary of bisexual guys in Bioware games:

 

Sky (JE) - widowed with a child; approaches the male PC about why he isn't interested in the ladies; surprised by gay male PC, but eventually shows interest

Zevran (DA: O) - "promiscuous bisexual"; strong female preference; some interpret that the story implies that he 'became' bisexual because of his work

Anders (DA 2) - "retconned controversy"; strong female preference in DA: A; might be pansexual ("I fall in love with the person, not the body")

Fenris (DA 2) - no mention of his sexuality at all; ends up sleeping with Isabela if not romanced

Kaidan (ME 3) - "retconned controversy"; strong female preference in ME and ME3 (he likes asari alot)

Bull (DA: I) - "promiscuous bisexual"; actually pansexual; slight female preference; BDSM romance; ends up in a relationship with Dorian if not romanced

 

To be honest, because I feel that, outside of Sky and Fenris, the bisexual male LI's are either "promiscuous bisexuals" or "retconned straight guys", I'd much prefer to see a KISA be gay.  I was originally on the fence about it (and, to be honest, would still be thrilled if we got a bisexual male KISA), but the more I think of it, the more I'd like to see a KISA be gay.  I think that if a KISA were to be bisexual, people would just write it off as "fanservice" and view him (even if he were an original character) as written to be straight, but "made" bisexual because of this thread.  And, to be honest, I'm not confident that the writers would write him in a way that wouldn't make it seem like he's "straight except for PC", particularly given that they wouldn't be able to draw on the 'promiscuous bisexual' trope.

 

If they did make a male bisexual KISA, I'd really like him to have a strong male preference, just to break the cycle that male bisexuals really like women, but will be "gay for PC".  If they made him a chivalrous knight type, I think it could work. 

 

I love these bi characters to death (well except Sky since I have not played JE), but yes I agree that the "bi the way" and promiscuous bisexual trend is over-represented  in bi characters. I would love to see a "straight too, by the way" male KISA and a sexually inexperienced one for that matter. The more variety representation is, the better!

[daveliam]

I love these bi characters to death (well except Sky since I have not played JE), but yes I agree that the "bi the way" and promiscuous bisexual trend is over-represented  in bi characters. I would love to see a "straight too, by the way" male KISA and a sexually inexperienced one for that matter. The more variety representation is, the better!

 

OT:  You should totally play JE.  It's worth it.  It doesn't hold up so well to time, but it's a good story and Sky's romance (while very bare bones compared to what we are used to today) is endearing in a way and certainly not what we now-a-days.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Bioware has always done a pretty terrible job with bisexual characters. You would think that a company that tries so hard to be thoughtful and inclusive wouldn't manage to write every bisexual as slutty and/or just gay for you and/or Dorian. Leliana is the only exception, well, and maybe Merrill. It's a shame they gender gated Anders' relationship with Karl because they could have easily adverted it in his case.

[ThreeF]

Bioware has always done a pretty terrible job with bisexual characters.

I wonder if anyone ever has done good job with bisexual characters.

[MACharlie1]

Bioware has always done a pretty terrible job with bisexual characters. You would think that a company that tries so hard to be thoughtful and inclusive wouldn't manage to write every bisexual as slutty and/or just gay for you and/or Dorian. Leliana is the only exception, well, and maybe Merrill. It's a shame they gender gated Anders' relationship with Karl because they could have easily adverted it in his case.

Josephine? Kaidan? Neither one are sluts. 

 

EDIT: Ohhhhh. I see. Never mind. Carry on. 

[TheOgre]

Yeah, I can't see any immediate solution to the "they must be playersexual or have been retconned unless they specifically state they are bisexual from the moment that they make their preferences known" thing.  Unfortunately, people in the real world still view bisexuality as a negative or made up construct.  People don't understand it and make a lot of wild assumptions about it.  That's what's influencing a lot of these comments.  Add to that the fact that people default to a heterocentric view because of societal expectations and that's why we continue to see these debates about characters.

 

It's kind of sad that we get stuck in this contradictory space:  If a LGBT character brings up their sexuality, then it's forced.  But if they don't, it's either not real or only conditionally real.  It's frustrating.  Zevran, Isabela, and Bull never have their sexuality questioned and it's because they are 'promiscuous bisexuals' who bring up sex all the time.  Fenris, Merrill, and Josephine have their sexuality questioned specifically because they don't bring it up.  Despite many of the same posters complaining that they want 'more realistic' characters, they continue to only accept bisexuals if they only fit into a single representation.

 

I never thought of it like this before but that's because I've been rather fortunate with my choices all games considering. I can see your point (that is if I understand it right). If not feel free to correct and newspaper my head for it. Bi-males being mostly written for female preference instead of the other way around. I'd hope for the opposite then for the next installment for diversity.

[eyezonlyii]

Just offering my $.02 on the assumption of heterosexuality of a character. I personally don't see that as a problem. As many people are apt to point out on these forums in the various sexuality/romance threads, most people are heterosexual (or at least present themselves in a heterosexual manner). With that being said, I don't see it as a big deal when a person who either doesn't talk about their preferences, or for one who talks about the opposite sex (I use sex and gender very separately by the way), to take them at their (un)spoken word. I liken it to this:

 

If someone was to hand me a pen, they would naturally give it to my right hand because that's what most people write with. The fact that I am in fact left handed, is unbeknownst to them until such a time as I need to use a pen, or unless I bring it up in some way.

 

With that approach, I don't understand how believing until told otherwise by that person, how assuming they are heterosexual is anyway offensive.

 

Fun fact: According to a few articles I've read over the years, dominant hand choice and homosexuality may both be influenced by a similar combination of gene expression/environment. For anecdotal evidence, both my parents are right handed (and presumably strait lol); I, the firstborn am a lefty; the next is right handed, the third brother a lefty also, and the last one was ambidextrous, but "encouraged" to choose his right hand to write with, though everyone was on lettering duty in case he decided to go either way. 

[ThreeF]

In theory the point is assume nothing until given evidence, it's difficult to  do this in practice.

[eyezonlyii]

In theory the point is assume nothing until given evidence, it's difficult to  do this in practice.

But that's the point isn't it? A developer can only program so much in a game. If a character is written and displayed as only preferring one sex, then it would be prudent to take that character at face value, no matter how much the fans wish they were interested in someone else.

 

To illustrate, I'll use Mass Effect.

As of the end of ME, Kaidan had only displayed interest in FemShep, and talked about a previous crush on a different girl at BAaT. He was presumed heterosexual.

 

As of the end of ME3, Cortez had only displayed interest in BroShep, and talked about his previous marriage to another man. He is presumed gay.

 

The only difference here is that Kaidan got two more games to eventually express his interest in BroShep, where as Steve hasn't. Yet Steve is lauded as the gay male interest. Why? Because the assumption is that he is only attracted to men because that is what's in the game. 

[DirkJake]

Just offering my $.02 on the assumption of heterosexuality of a character. I personally don't see that as a problem. As many people are apt to point out on these forums in the various sexuality/romance threads, most people are heterosexual (or at least present themselves in a heterosexual manner). With that being said, I don't see it as a big deal when a person who either doesn't talk about their preferences, or for one who talks about the opposite sex (I use sex and gender very separately by the way), to take them at their (un)spoken word. I liken it to this:

 

If someone was to hand me a pen, they would naturally give it to my right hand because that's what most people write with. The fact that I am in fact left handed, is unbeknownst to them until such a time as I need to use a pen, or unless I bring it up in some way.

 

With that approach, I don't understand how believing until told otherwise by that person, how assuming they are heterosexual is anyway offensive.

 

Fun fact: According to a few articles I've read over the years, dominant hand choice and homosexuality may both be influenced by a similar combination of gene expression/environment. For anecdotal evidence, both my parents are right handed (and presumably strait lol); I, the firstborn am a lefty; the next is right handed, the third brother a lefty also, and the last one was ambidextrous, but "encouraged" to choose his right hand to write with, though everyone was on lettering duty in case he decided to go either way. 

 

Interesting questions. I hope I'll do justice answering them.

 

I would like to differentiate the two cases: a character in a fictional world and a person (in a real world).

 

There is nothing wrong with having a bisexual character that fits the "bi the way" trope or a bi promiscuous character. The problem occurs when these become how the majority of bisexual representations are. I strongly believe that LGBT representation should be varied and diverse, because LGBT people are so. LGBT representation should be as diverse as straight and cisgender representation is. 

 

Onto the next case. Your left/right hand analogy does have one flaw. People with left-handedness are not oppressed because of their left-handedness. They are not being constantly told that their left-handedness is an "abomination," "unnatural," or a "lifestyle."

 

Assuming a person we just meet to be heterosexual is fine IMO. I mean I do it a lot of times. What we do with that assumption, however, is the key. Projecting that assumption into our interaction with that person can be problematic. For example, I was asked too many times (by my family, my friends, my coworkers, and random people in bars) why I don't have a girlfriend yet. This question forced me to either lie or out myself. I am lucky that I passed that self-doubt phase of my life. But I would imagine that it must be horrible for younger LGBT people who are struggling with their identity and self-acceptance. Personally, coming to term with myself and accepting the fact I am gay, while being incessantly told that being straight is how normal people are, were the most difficult part of coming out.

 

I hope my reply does not come off as an attack; it is not my intent at all.

[eyezonlyii]

Interesting questions. I hope I'll do justice answering them.

 

I would like to differentiate the two cases: a character in a fictional world and a person (in a real world).

 

There is nothing wrong with having a bisexual character that fits the "bi the way" trope or a bi promiscuous character. The problem occurs when these become how the majority of bisexual representations are. I strongly believe that LGBT representation should be varied and diverse, because LGBT people are so. LGBT representation should be as diverse as straight and cisgender representation is. 

 

Onto the next case. Your left/right hand analogy does have one flaw. People with left-handedness are not oppressed because of their left-handedness. They are not being constantly told that their left-handedness is an "abomination," "unnatural," or a "lifestyle."

 

Assuming a person we just meet to be heterosexual is fine IMO. I mean I do it a lot of times. What we do with that assumption, however, is the key. Projecting that assumption into our interaction with that person can be problematic. For example, I was asked too many times (by my family, my friends, my coworkers, and random people in bars) why I don't have a girlfriend yet. This question forced me to either lie or out myself. I am lucky that I passed that self-doubt phase of my life. But I would imagine that it must be horrible for younger LGBT people who are struggling with their identity and self-acceptance. Personally, coming to term with myself and accepting the fact I am gay, while being incessantly told that being straight is how normal people are, were the most difficult part of coming out.

 

I hope my reply does not come off as an attack; it is not my intent at all.

Oh I used to get the "why don't you have a girlfriend" question alot from extended family. Eventually I ran out of lies (I was younger then) and just said I wasn't looking for one. And I do get where you're coming from about the "what we do with those assumptions", I just didn't extend my argument that far because the point I was contesting was whether the act of assuming in and of itself is wrong, and I don't think it is. My point about the handedness of people was just to bring up another instance where there is a large majority of people who are one way, and it wouldn't be known that someone was in the minority until an extenuating circumstance came along, because really, how often does handedness come up? In fact I would daresay sexuality comes up even more (or at least has the potential to with conversations about family and weekend plans and whatnot).