7143 réponses à ce sujet

[Semyaza82]

I say this every time this topic comes up, but I'll never forgive Alistair for trolling me with his lampost licking conversation. 

 

Although I personally would prefer someone a lot more femme gay guy, with softer/androgynous features that what we've had recently. Fenris was close to what I'm talking about, but he was still pretty masculine in the end in terms of (1) his face and (2) his awesome, sexy, sexy, sexy voice. But that's just my type. 

   Apparently we have a daily 'like' limit which is the only reason you don't have one right now. Personally the femme gay thing isn't to my taste but i'm so happy someone has brought it up.

   While I in no way, shape, or form think any one posting has said anything resembling 'femme gay = bad' I would hate to have anyone looking at this thread think the desire was for gay characters to only be 'masculine men' (and yes huge potential issues with terminology but Dave pretty much covered it on page 4). I actually like there being 'flamboyant/femme/any other euphemism you want to use'  gay characters in the media as well. Orphan Black actor actor Jordan Gavaris covers the issue really well here: I'm a link!

[HeyCal]

I would personally love a more manly bear LI for gay men! I was pretty crushed when Blackwall was revealed as straight. Dorian still looks great and I will totally romance him but I just want us to have a big burly manly man for the gay men to romance. It seems that when a gay or bi LI is used, often they are more feminine, like the devs are terrified of emasculating the male players and insinuate that they are at all feminine or the "girl" in the relationship. <- I highly dislike that term.

Iron Bull is a nice change from this.

 

I also wouldn't mind a feminine warrior for the women to romance too. (I hate the idea that only gruff aggressive women can be warriors.) 

[daveliam]

I say this every time this topic comes up, but I'll never forgive Alistair for trolling me with his lampost licking conversation. 

 

Although I personally would prefer someone a lot more femme gay guy, with softer/androgynous features that what we've had recently. Fenris was close to what I'm talking about, but he was still pretty masculine in the end in terms of (1) his face and (2) his awesome, sexy, sexy, sexy voice. But that's just my type. 

 

Yeah, I think it would be nice to see both extremes represented, to be honest.  We've had m/m options who fall in the middle, but we've yet to have any in DA that I think represent either the trope that the thread was initially about or the other end of the spectrum with femme guys.  I would like to see both sides in the future.  I think we've gotten the more "masculine" side with Kaidan and Steve in ME, but in DA, we haven't seen them.  And Dorian is the closest to the "femme" side that we've seen and that's not saying much because he's not terrible femme, just a little sassy and cheeky.  I only say he might skew that way because of his posture in the chess match.  It was definitely contrasting with Cullen's very masculine posture.  I think there is definitely room for both to show up.  Like Sem (and his awesome Venger avatar), I'm not terribly interested in femme guys in general nor do I really identify that way, but there are plenty of guys who do and they should get to see that in the game too.  And, who knows, I could totally fall for the right "femme" guy.  I never say never.  Well, maybe to ladies......

[In Exile]

   Apparently we have a daily 'like' limit which is the only reason you don't have one right now. Personally the femme gay thing isn't to my taste but i'm so happy someone has brought it up.

   While I in no way, shape, or form think any one posting has said anything resembling 'femme gay = bad' I would hate to have anyone looking at this thread think the desire was for gay characters to only be 'masculine men' (and yes huge potential issues with terminology but Dave pretty much covered it on page 4). I actually like there being 'flamboyant/femme/any other euphemism you want to use'  gay characters in the media as well. Orphan Black actor actor Jordan Gavaris covers the issue really well here: I'm a link!

 

Thanks for the link. 

 

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting anyone in this thread went with 'femme = bad'. I just meant that in addition to need a shinning gay knight in armour (or do we want him not to glisten, but have shinny armour?), we also need someone who's actually more androgynous/soft in terms of features. 

 

I would personally love a more manly bear LI for gay men! I was pretty crushed when Blackwall was revealed as straight. Dorian still looks great and I will totally romance him but I just want us to have a big burly manly man for the gay men to romance. It seems that when a gay or bi LI is used, often they are more feminine, like the devs are terrified of emasculating the male players and insinuate that they are at all feminine or the "girl" in the relationship. <- I highly dislike that term.

Iron Bull is a nice change from this.

 

I also wouldn't mind a feminine warrior for the women to romance too. (I hate the idea that only gruff aggressive women can be warriors.) 

 

The problem for women, IMO, is the opposite. They don't get the gruff warrior woman - Avelline or Cassandra (or Jack, who was the third in a poly triad, who apparently isn't a bi LI?). They get the softer, more femme rogues. 

[daveliam]

The problem for women, IMO, is the opposite. They don't get the gruff warrior woman - Avelline or Cassandra (or Jack, who was the third in a poly triad, who apparently isn't a bi LI?). They get the softer, more femme rogues. 

 

You know, I've thought about this and I really do think it has to do with developers/writers wanting to avoid stereotypes.  While I appreciate that there is a concerted effort to make sure that gay men are not always depicted as feminine and "soft" and lesbians aren't always depicted as masculine and "butch", I think we've ended up almost pretending like those people don't exist.  And that's a shame because they do and they aren't stereotypes and they deserve to see themselves too.  I think that, as the number of gay and lesbian characters increase, we'll start to see some variety, but I think that they (Bioware, in this case) are starting in the middle, where it's "safe".  Not too extreme in either way, so no one can claim that they are depicting stereotypes or blatantly bucking stereotypes.  However, I see real value in having a feminine gay guy and masculine lesbian represented in the future.  I think it will probably skew in the other direction first (going with super feminine lesbians and hyper masculine gay guys), because it's still 'safer' that way, but I'm sure it will happen in time.

[Semyaza82]

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting anyone in this thread went with 'femme = bad'. I just meant that in addition to need a shinning gay knight in armour (or do we want him not to glisten, but have shinny armour?), we also need someone who's actually more androgynous/soft in terms of features. 

 

Sorry, didn't think you meant that at all - if i accidental implied you did really didn't mean too.

[HeyCal]

Yeah, I think it would be nice to see both extremes represented, to be honest.  We've had m/m options who fall in the middle, but we've yet to have any in DA that I think represent either the trope that the thread was initially about or the other end of the spectrum with femme guys.  I would like to see both sides in the future.  I think we've gotten the more "masculine" side with Kaidan and Steve in ME, but in DA, we haven't seen them.  And Dorian is the closest to the "femme" side that we've seen and that's not saying much because he's not terrible femme, just a little sassy and cheeky.  I only say he might skew that way because of his posture in the chess match.  It was definitely contrasting with Cullen's very masculine posture.  I think there is definitely room for both to show up.  Like Sem (and his awesome Venger avatar), I'm not terribly interested in femme guys in general nor do I really identify that way, but there are plenty of guys who do and they should get to see that in the game too.  And, who knows, I could totally fall for the right "femme" guy.  I never say never.  Well, maybe to ladies......

 

 

I've always seen Zevran from origins as very feminine, and Fenris from DA2 seemed kinda girly to me as well. Perhaps its the body type that gets me. But this is also very very subjective, what I think is more feminine and masculine could be completely different from what someone else might. 

I've never really liked the BI options we've been presented with in the game until now because they never seemed masculine enough for me. I liked Anders because he was of a more thick physique? I'd rather we not have more feminine options since I'm desperate to actually be able to romance a guy my type as a male instead of having to play as female characters in order to do so. 

[In Exile]

 

Yeah, I think it would be nice to see both extremes represented, to be honest.  We've had m/m options who fall in the middle, but we've yet to have any in DA that I think represent either the trope that the thread was initially about or the other end of the spectrum with femme guys.  I would like to see both sides in the future.  I think we've gotten the more "masculine" side with Kaidan and Steve in ME, but in DA, we haven't seen them.  And Dorian is the closest to the "femme" side that we've seen and that's not saying much because he's not terrible femme, just a little sassy and cheeky.  I only say he might skew that way because of his posture in the chess match.  It was definitely contrasting with Cullen's very masculine posture.  

 

Speaking of Kaiden, does he count as a knight? I mean, personality wise, he's exactly what I think that sort of character would be like - plus his expressing his feelings was just cute. My first ME3 playthrough I ran my ME2 pure-renegade no romance Shep, and it just didn't occur to me getting Kaiden all his gifts would trigger his romance (and avoid ME3 forums so religiously I didn't even know he was available). So when he does his whole speech, I was kind of like... yeah, you know what, pure-renegade Shep isn't that averse to a romance after all. 

 

I really like what we've seen of Dorian. He's got that sort of charm I definetly could play with. In terms of personality, we'd hit it off. And Qunquisitor x Dorian can just be like a macro of what I'm going for.  

 

Yeah, I think it would be nice to see both extremes represented, to be honest.  We've had m/m options who fall in the middle, but we've yet to have any in DA that I think represent either the trope that the thread was initially about or the other end of the spectrum with femme guys.  I would like to see both sides in the future.  I think we've gotten the more "masculine" side with Kaidan and Steve in ME, but in DA, we haven't seen them.  And Dorian is the closest to the "femme" side that we've seen and that's not saying much because he's not terrible femme, just a little sassy and cheeky.  I only say he might skew that way because of his posture in the chess match.  It was definitely contrasting with Cullen's very masculine posture.  I think there is definitely room for both to show up.  Like Sem (and his awesome Venger avatar), I'm not terribly interested in femme guys in general nor do I really identify that way, but there are plenty of guys who do and they should get to see that in the game too.  And, who knows, I could totally fall for the right "femme" guy.  I never say never.  Well, maybe to ladies......

 

This is why being bi is awesome. I wouldn't say no to anyone. Well, maybe to the IB. But who knows - his personality might be so awesome I can't refuse. He just does not do it for me at all. 

[In Exile]

You know, I've thought about this and I really do think it has to do with developers/writers wanting to avoid stereotypes.  While I appreciate that there is a concerted effort to make sure that gay men are not always depicted as feminine and "soft" and lesbians aren't always depicted as masculine and "butch", I think we've ended up almost pretending like those people don't exist.  And that's a shame because they do and they aren't stereotypes and they deserve to see themselves too.  I think that, as the number of gay and lesbian characters increase, we'll start to see some variety, but I think that they (Bioware, in this case) are starting in the middle, where it's "safe".  Not too extreme in either way, so no one can claim that they are depicting stereotypes or blatantly bucking stereotypes.  However, I see real value in having a feminine gay guy and masculine lesbian represented in the future.  I think it will probably skew in the other direction first (going with super feminine lesbians and hyper masculine gay guys), because it's still 'safer' that way, but I'm sure it will happen in time.

 

You're totally right, and I do understand the worry that even right-minded developers (of games or movies or TV) have with respect to reinforcing a cultural stereotype when they're really outside of the bubble when it comes to being LGBT. I'd like to see what I like to see, so to speak, being featured more in media because I'm selfish like that, but I'd much rather see an awesome character like Steve or a touching romance like Kaiden's than just get stereotype filled drivel with a character who happens to have a look that does it for me. Not saying that this is what would happen, but in a sense it's easier to write something interesting/poignant when you're breaking out of a stereotype than when you're caught up in the stereotype. Sort of how Bioware wants to make a progressive world in DA but gets caught weird moments, like Anders asking Hawke if he's okay with the fact that he likes dudes after Hawke just told him he's all about the ****. 

 

One of the things that's really hard for media to deal with right now is the discontinuity between personality and body type, too. Like, in terms of someone having a stereotypically aggressive, masculine and top-y personality but being built like Tom Cruise (or Colton Haynes from Arrow), or someone who's (to bring up an old fave), the bottomiest bottom who ever bottomed, but looks like Manu Benett (or, say, the Iron Bull). 

[blussi]

I love love LOVE this idea. +1 like to all of you, seriously. While I'm happy with options that we currently have in DA:I it'd be super awesome if we can get these 'gay-knight' type of character for next DA series or any other Bioware game.

[Semyaza82]

 

 

This is why being bi is awesome. I wouldn't say no to anyone. Well, maybe to the IB. But who knows - his personality might be so awesome I can't refuse. He just does not do it for me at all. 

 

Simply for the variety i do kind of wish i was bi. Also (and i blame the rum here) i did read IB as meaning 'irritable bowel' and briefly found your post very confusing

[In Exile]

Simply for the variety i do kind of wish i was bi. Also (and i blame the rum here) i did read IB as meaning 'irritable bowel' and briefly found your post very confusing

 

There's a terrible joke in there, but I'm obviously too refined for it.  

[Panda]

Although knight of shining armor is far from what I like, it'd be nice to see little variety. Maybe some straight dashing rogues or mages for a change too? ^^

[Semyaza82]

There's a terrible joke in there, but I'm obviously too refined for it.

Damn it! When does my like quota refill!

[daveliam]

I've always seen Zevran from origins as very feminine, and Fenris from DA2 seemed kinda girly to me as well. Perhaps its the body type that gets me. But this is also very very subjective, what I think is more feminine and masculine could be completely different from what someone else might. 

I've never really liked the BI options we've been presented with in the game until now because they never seemed masculine enough for me. I liked Anders because he was of a more thick physique? I'd rather we not have more feminine options since I'm desperate to actually be able to romance a guy my type as a male instead of having to play as female characters in order to do so. 

 

I tend to agree with you, but I've seen a bunch of people on the forums say that not only are Zev and Fenris not femme, but they are too butch for their liking.  While I certainly don't feel that way, I can see that it's really a matter of taste and that there is a market out there for femme guys and those stories aren't being told. 

 

 

 

 

Speaking of Kaiden, does he count as a knight? I mean, personality wise, he's exactly what I think that sort of character would be like - plus his expressing his feelings was just cute. My first ME3 playthrough I ran my ME2 pure-renegade no romance Shep, and it just didn't occur to me getting Kaiden all his gifts would trigger his romance (and avoid ME3 forums so religiously I didn't even know he was available). So when he does his whole speech, I was kind of like... yeah, you know what, pure-renegade Shep isn't that averse to a romance after all.

 

 

Yep, I've mentioned this in the "bisexual" (their quotes, not mine) thread.  I think Kaidan is the closest that we've ever gotten.  The only thing that isn't quite right for me (and I'm just being picky) is that I'd love to see it played out in the fantasy genre, since that's really what the trope draws upon.  That's why I want to see a true 'knight in shining armor' in the DA series. 

Sidenote:  While I've been thinking about this today, I came up with another knight from my childhood who I crushed hard on:  Nicholas Clay as Lancelot in Exaclibur.  God DAMN that guy made me swoon.   And, of course, straight.

 

 

 

One of the things that's really hard for media to deal with right now is the discontinuity between personality and body type, too. Like, in terms of someone having a stereotypically aggressive, masculine and top-y personality but being built like Tom Cruise (or Colton Haynes from Arrow), or someone who's (to bring up an old fave), the bottomiest bottom who ever bottomed, but looks like Manu Benett (or, say, the Iron Bull). 

 

Now how the hell am I going to find a way in my life to work in the phrase "the bottomiest bottom who ever bottomed"?  <shrugs> I'll find a way, I'm sure!

[Semyaza82]

 

Now how the hell am I going to find a way in my life to work in the phrase "the bottomiest bottom who ever bottomed"?  <shrugs> I'll find a way, I'm sure!

I'm with you on this one. Also I really hope this is how Iron Bull introduces himself to us in game

[Medhia_Nox]

Femme-gay absolutely does not equal "Bad" in any way - but I wonder, would such a gentle creature "really" be out fighting and getting dirty?

Now... if the character took the place of someone like Josephine - awesome. 

 

Absolutely not trying to rain on anyone's parade - just that the more feminine gay men I know would detest the notion of "adventuring" even if they wanted to come home from a day of shopping to a brawny adventurer (the PC).

 

@Panda:  Absolutely on the dashing hetero too! Straight dude who likes looking fabulous - while mind numbing irritating to me (because I'd want what I can't have) would be great for varieties sake. 

 

I cannot abide exclusion - more variety for everyone.

 

It's one reason I absolutely LOVED Aveline... I thought she broke so many molds and was, for me, easily one of the more realistic (as opposed to more of a caricature) NPCs ever portrayed period.

[SardaukarElite]

I think it would be a cool thing to see, I approve.

 

Also, broadening the kinds of gay characters around might help non-gay people find a gay character they can relate to / empathise with.

[sylvanaerie]

 

 

 

Now how the hell am I going to find a way in my life to work in the phrase "the bottomiest bottom who ever bottomed"?  <shrugs> I'll find a way, I'm sure!

 

Have a "Like" for this, because...well, this is the best thing I've read all morning!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As I said in the thread that spawned this one, I hope one day I get to nitpick(and I mean this in a positive way) like this. 

[Ms .45]

I totally agree with you.

I very consciously did not use the term 'masculine' because I know it brings a lot of baggage with it in the gay community. But it is related a bit for me. There really aren't very many 'by the books' masculine gay guys in media, especially in video games. And the white knight trope is a way to explore that story and character.

They don't have to be linked for me, though. I would be really happy with a masculine boy-next-door type (think male Bethany, but 'typically' masculine) and a slightly flamboyant white knight as the next batch of LIs!

 

I take it Carver is not what you mean? 

[boissiere]

Aveline isn't a romance option though,  but she does certainly fit the archetype and has only been in opposite sex relationships that we know of.

 

Yes but you still have forgotten one : Morrigan who is clearly straight in DAO. There are no romance in Awakening but some hints suggest that Velianna is also straight.

I take it Carver is not what you mean? 

I'm almost sure you're right.

[Stronglav]

I always play females so I dont care.Oh and I always romance females.

Oh Leliana.....

And Isabella and Merril....

They shoulda made threesome for female romance  XD

[Ascendra]

I remember Baldur's Gate fairly well, NWN i played but never completed (no longer remember why but probably computer at the time not up to the job) and NVN2 i missed completely. Now feel i should correct that - if nothing else will give me something to do till launch date

You should definitely try NWN2 and especially its Mask of the Betrayer expansion. Imho its one of the most underrated games with some of the best companions. It breaks stereotypes with some of the companions and takes many classic fantasy tropes and makes fun of them. Shame so much was cut from it as it is always the case with Obsidian.
You've got a classic noble older knight who doesn't talk much (and actually doesnt get on your nerves), a chaotic evil ranger who likes you if youre a girl but values himself above you always, a happy-go-lucky dwarf who wants to be a monk because he likes fighting with his fists, an awesomely sarcastic elf wizard with a superiority complex, a kleptomaniac tiefling girl, and an elf girl with weird stalker tendencies. And in Mask of the Betrayer you have an extremely pretty and narcissistic hagspawn, a rainbow bear, an intelligent and rather normal wizard of Thay and driven half-celestial. Basically this bunch breaks every possible character trope there is. And I find the story immensely satisfying because with Obsidian it is always some personal character problem and then the world saving one.

[Ascendra]

See? I've never played NWN2, so I just went and read up on Bishop to see what the big deal was and ended up falling for Casavir (different developers; same straight knight thing.....) based solely on the description I read.

I'm such a sucker for this trope.

Yes, I think you might like Casavir. He is mature, stoic, noble type thats quietly protective of the PC. He will do anything you ask without asking for anything in return. What I like about him is that he lacks woobiness and twilight-style problems.