7132 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So basically something like Samara from the Mass Effect franchise, except male and a warrior? 

[sandalisthemaker]

Granted Omar Little is a pretty edgy character, but that wasn't quite were I was going.

 

A "Man with a code" can be the kindest, most compassionate person there is.  What sets him apart is that he chooses what he believes to be right or wrong, rather than having to be told by someone in authority, be it the Chantry or a lord.

 

Think a good-aligned version of Nietzsche's Ubermech.

 

I wouldn't complain.  Although that sounds like Blackwall without the twist.  

 

'The man with a code' is a good starting point to add to. 

[TheJediSaint]

So basically something like Samara from the Mass Effect franchise, except male and a warrior? 

That would be more of a gay Judge Dredd.

[sandalisthemaker]

So basically something like Samara from the Mass Effect franchise, except male and a warrior? 

 

Samara is rather cold and distant. I'd like the KISA to be more warm and open.  I'm not even referring to Samara's non-sexual relationship. Just her personality in general. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Samara is rather cold and distant. I'd like the KISA to be more warm and open.  I'm not even referring to Samara's non-sexual relationship. Just her personality in general. 

I was referring to her as an example of the "Man with a code" thing. I know the Justicars are an order, but really in name only since they operate solo and are in charge of themselves, thus the Justicar code being slightly different for each Justicar. 

[TheJediSaint]

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that the hypothetical character we're talking about would bear most of the traits of a knight in shining armor, but comes by those traits in an unusual way.

[sandalisthemaker]

I was referring to her as an example of the "Man with a code" thing. I know the Justicars are an order, but really in name only since they operate solo and are in charge of themselves, thus the Justicar code being slightly different for each Justicar. 

 

Yeah, a 'man with a code' is good.  I just worry when said code stifles the character's personality, and becomes a sort of personal prison the way it was for Samara.  It can be interesting, though. 

[daveliam]

How would you all go about planning the 'reveal' of the KISA's sexuality?  Would you want it tied to his or her personal quest again?  Would you prefer it to be very understated and a non-issue?  Would you like some sort of middle ground?  How would you guys handle it if it were up to you?

 

So in my head, I'm hoping that we are going up towards Nevarra in the next game, so I'm crossing my fingers for a Nevarran Dragon Hunter or a Kal-Shirok Rock-Knocker as our gay KISA.  In either case, I'd like their sexuality to just be brought up in a casual conversation.  Perhaps it could come up in banter with one or two party members and just mentioned casually.  Also, I like it if the there were a flirt option for both males and females and the KISA could respond appropriately to both (kind of like how Cullen and Cassandra did).  That would be nice to see.  That being said, I don't mind how it was done with Steve, where his sexuality was revealed simply because he mentions a past husband.

 

The thinly veiled homophobia in this thread is just perplexing. All this talk about having a character fulfill a knight archetype seems like a terrible, disingenuous excuse to include a straight-acting, and therefore "acceptable" to some, gay character. Of course, Dorian is sassy, flamboyant and likes fashion so he can't possibly fit the arbitrary made-up criteria for the trope despite being deeply caring and protective of his people, while staying true and loyal to his convictions.

 

There's also the fact that Dorian is the first gay male companion in the series, and he defies the pattern of "morally grey" characters listed in the OP. Which makes me all the more suspicious about the legitimacy of the suggestion/complaint.

 

I personally don't see any issue with a "flamboyant" or sassy gay character.  In fact, I've said numerous times that I wouldn't mind it if they even went further with that type by having an actual flamboyant gay character (Dorian is hardly a gay stereotype).  I doubt that they'll do that (just like they likely won't have a very masculine butch lesbian) in fear of being accused of creating gay stereotypes. 

 

But I also like masculine 'straight acting' guys.  I'm personally very tired of being told that I'm pushing my internalized homophobia because I am attracted to masculine guys.  I know that this homophobia exists in the community, but to paint everyone who acts or likes masculinity as homophobic is as narrow-minded and generalized as you are accusing others of. 

 

Some people here find Kaidan interesting? I... don't think I have words for that. Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather have a complex, multi-layered, conflicting character like Dorian than some boring, generic and two-dimensional macho knight. I trust Bioware's judgement to keep delivering amazing queer characters in their games (hopefully we'll see Maevaris next).

 

Congratulations for you.  Fortunately for you, you have that with Dorian.  So enjoy him (I certainly do).  I personally find Kaidan to be exactly the type of guy that I want to see in the DA series.  Hopefully, if they ever do create a character like that, you'll like the other option.

 

Completely agree about Maevaris, though.

[Lieutenant Kurin]

The thinly veiled homophobia in this thread is just perplexing. All this talk about having a character fulfill a knight archetype seems like a terrible, disingenuous excuse to include a straight-acting, and therefore "acceptable" to some, gay character. Of course, Dorian is sassy, flamboyant and likes fashion so he can't possibly fit the arbitrary made-up criteria for the trope despite being deeply caring and protective of his people, while staying true and loyal to his convictions.
There's also the fact that Dorian is the first gay male companion in the series, and he defies the pattern of "morally grey" characters listed in the OP. Which makes me all the more suspicious about the legitimacy of the suggestion/complaint.
 

Some people here find Kaidan interesting? I... don't think I have words for that. Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather have a complex, multi-layered, conflicting character like Dorian than some boring, generic and two-dimensional macho knight. I trust Bioware's judgement to keep delivering amazing queer characters in their games (hopefully we'll see Maevaris next).

 

First, can we not call it straight acting? I had a post, quite literally three pages ago, that emphatically stated that SEXUALITY IS NOT TIED TO PERSONALITY. Add that to the fact that every gay or bi male we have seen has a touch of sass, an obvious interest in fashion or a bit of flamboyancy... you know what, screw it, I'm going to just reinsert it here:

 

"Every major gay character to date has a bit of flamboyance, a touch of arrogance, a flair for out of this world fashion that excludes them from being the everyman, the hero we all read about in children's fairytales. And before i get called bigoted, flamboyance and being fashion forward is fine (so is a bit of ego), but we see them ALL THE TIME. There are gay (and bi) men and women out there which have none of those traits, who are unambiguously moral, who are the good dads and the average who get our existence mocked, denied and sidelined due to the media's slow acceptance of the fact that being gay, or interested in the same gender, has nothing to do with personality." -Lieutenant Kurin

 

Let me restate it. FLAMBOYANCY IS FINE, SASSY IS FINE, KNOWING HOW TO TIE AN ASCOT IS FINE. BUT IT ISN'T A COMMON TRAIT AMONGST ALL MEN WHO ARE ATTRACTED TO MEN. And this hits a personal nerve with me, because I've had "friends" who have accused me for being homophobic because I am not sassy, not flamboyant and dress like a classy lumberjack, if I ain't gay enough for you because I'm unfashionable, not sassy and have no idea what a blank-tini is, well then I'd say the homophobe would be you, as it takes one to assume that all men who like men have similar personalities. And all of this is reinforced by the total lack of gay or bi men who DO LACK THE ABOVE TRAITS in media.

 

And as for Kaidan, well he has his s-h-i-t together, is smart and loyal, and has a whole host of complexity, from his past experiences in BaAT (and the guilt he has), to the fact that he's a teacher, a family man, and has very real fears during the war. While everyone was talking about planets being taken over and thresher maws, Kaidan introduces us to the more personal story of his father going MIA escaping the reapers (and, by the end of ME3 is still MIA), and his fear that the students he trained AREN'T READY, and may lose their lives any minute now. Kaidan is a tired old soldier, who wants something to fight for and is more than ready to settle down, but, you're right, all the of the above are exclusive to straight people, I forgot.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

The thinly veiled homophobia in this thread is just perplexing. All this talk about having a character fulfill a knight archetype seems like a terrible, disingenuous excuse to include a straight-acting, and therefore "acceptable" to some, gay character. Of course, Dorian is sassy, flamboyant and likes fashion so he can't possibly fit the arbitrary made-up criteria for the trope despite being deeply caring and protective of his people, while staying true and loyal to his convictions.
There's also the fact that Dorian is the first gay male companion in the series, and he defies the pattern of "morally grey" characters listed in the OP. Which makes me all the more suspicious about the legitimacy of the suggestion/complaint.
 

Some people here find Kaidan interesting? I... don't think I have words for that. Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather have a complex, multi-layered, conflicting character like Dorian than some boring, generic and two-dimensional macho knight. I trust Bioware's judgement to keep delivering amazing queer characters in their games (hopefully we'll see Maevaris next).

 

I agree to a certain extent. I was originally all for the idea because I love Alistair, Aveline, Cassandra, and Cullen and would have like to same-sex romance all of them. However, the longer the thread goes on, the less it seems reasonable and the more it seems like wanting whatever you don't have. The inclusion of Sebastian being the most obvious moment since he doesn't fulfill the trope at all.

 

If Dorian had been a straight character and Blackwall had been gay, I can't help but feel like there would have been a lot of crying about how the gay guy has a questionable past and why can't a gay character be good to start with instead of trying to redeem himself later. I also feel like there would be a lot more willingness to overlook Dorian's magic because his whole character is wanting to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Not for any personal gain but but for moral idealism. How KISA is that? But instead Dorian is derided as a rebel, even though he's rebelling against a broken system that benefits a small group of privileged people (which is an extremely honorable thing to do) just like Cassandra. But Cassandra still counts of course.

 

And while I'm on the subject of straight characters not being judged as harshly as queer characters in regard to if they qualify and to what degree, what about Alistair? His obsession with Loghain isn't about the fact that Loghain did something atrocious and needs to be brought to justice, it's the fact that Alistair was personally wronged by Loghain and wants vengeance for it. It doesn't get less KISA than that, But he gets a pass and is fawned over as an ideal because he has a sword and is straight.  

 

I disagree about Kaidan being boring, but you're entitled to your own opinions. However, I don't think it's fair to call him a generic, macho guy when Kaidan is arguably the most emotionally sensitive major character in the series. That's hardly typical or stereotypically masculine.

[In Exile]

I agree to a certain extent. I was originally all for the idea because I love Alistair, Aveline, Cassandra, and Cullen and would have like to same-sex romance all of them. However, the longer the thread goes on, the less it seems reasonable and the more it seems like wanting whatever you don't have. The inclusion of Sebastian being the most obvious moment since he doesn't fulfill the trope at all.

If Dorian had been a straight character and Blackwall had been gay, I can't help but feel like there would have been a lot of crying about how the gay guy has a questionable past and why can't a gay character be good to start with instead of trying to redeem himself later. I also feel like there would be a lot more willingness to overlook Dorian's magic because his whole character is wanting to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Not for any personal gain but but for moral idealism. How KISA is that? But instead Dorian is derided as a rebel, even though he's rebelling against a broken system that benefits a small group of privileged people (which is an extremely honorable thing to do) just like Cassandra. But Cassandra still counts of course.

And while I'm on the subject of straight characters not being judged as harshly as queer characters in regard to if they qualify and to what degree, what about Alistair? His obsession with Loghain isn't about the fact that Loghain did something atrocious and needs to be brought to justice, it's the fact that Alistair was personally wronged by Loghain and wants vengeance for it. It doesn't get less KISA than that, But he gets a pass and is fawned over as an ideal because he has a sword and is straight.

I disagree about Kaidan being boring, but you're entitled to your own opinions. However, I don't think it's fair to call him a generic, macho guy when Kaidan is arguably the most emotionally sensitive major character in the series. That's hardly typical or stereotypically masculine.

Alistair gets a pass because he's almost ridiculously lawful good besides this one obsession with Loghain. He had an irrational hate of Loghain because he lost his father figure.

At the same time Alistair is dorky, noble - generally always looking to save others - and tries quite hard to do the right thing.

He's not an idealised paragon of virtue but I don't think anyone wants that.

I mean Cullen is offered as a KISA example and he's basically a recovering addict.

[ThreeF]

And while I'm on the subject of straight characters not being judged as harshly as queer characters in regard to if they qualify and to what degree, what about Alistair? His obsession with Loghain isn't about the fact that Loghain did something atrocious and needs to be brought to justice, it's the fact that Alistair was personally wronged by Loghain and wants vengeance for it. It doesn't get less KISA than that, But he gets a pass and is fawned over as an ideal because he has a sword and is straight.

hmm.. not sure about this, depends on what you conciser to be KISA I suppose, because from the way you describe it the only KISA I know is Casavir and he is the most bland excuse of a character ever to be created in video games.

 

The way I see it when people talk about KISA they usually have in mind some of the characteristics of the trope and not the trope itself, because the trope in itself is basically a Mary Sue.

 

You are of course right, strictly speaking Alistair is not a KISA, but from what I've read so far it's not about sword+stereotypically masculine traits and more about a Stereotypically Masculine  Wide-Eyed Idealist .  Alistair gives that feeling because he is not experienced in life in general, Cullen - because after all  that he's been through he is still idealistic about what Inquisition can achieve. Dorian on  the other hand is often very pragmatic and cynic.

[veeia]

Dorian just isn't classic KISA IMO. It's the Tony Stark/Steve Rogers divide. He's a great LI and he's nuanced and sympathetic and I don't think that "rebel" is entirely fair...it's more of that Tony thing, where rebel/redeemer are tied together and inseparable...but you if are trying to look at a narrow version of a specific trope, he just doesn't meet it because he's fulfilling the role of a trope that is defined against the KISA. And honestly that's why I like him so much, I love him exactly how he is.

I do agree that I don't think Alistair is the greatest example because of what happens if you spare Loghain and how that can color his entire arc if you experience it, but no one ever focuses on that part of Alistair (unless they're bashing him) it's not isolated to this thread.

Blackwall is clearly someone playing with the KISA trope, even if it's to take it and go in a different direction, so it makes sense that he'd be brought up, although I do agree that if he was gay and Dorian wasn't, people would complain.

[ThreeF]

Blackwall is clearly someone playing with the KISA trope.

Blackwall lampshades the trope up until the revelation, if not for his past he would be a very typical KISA.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I don't really care if Dorian counts or not, I'm just tired of seeing everyone bend over backwards for straight characters and be an apologist for all the ways they don't fit what we're asking, yet we're not willing to do the same thing for already queer characters and deny and undersell all the ways they do fit what we're asking for. The double standard of it all comes off as another moment where queer people will idealize straight people for being straight and it really bothers me.

[veeia]

I think he is playing at a KISA but he's not really one until the very end. KISAs aren't required to have spotless pasts, but they need to have very clear ideals about morals going forward and that's not something that always works for characters with twisted pasts. It does work for BW tho.

But it's not a classic KISA romance, it's very dark and complex and actually deconstructing the KISA a bit and I don't think that's really what people would want for the first gay KISA, lmfao. Like I loooove his romance, it's up there with Sera and Dorian as my faves, but Cullen would have been a better choice probably.

[veeia]

.

I don't really care if Dorian counts or not, I'm just tired of seeing everyone bend over backwards for straight characters and be an apologist for all the ways they don't fit what we're asking, yet we're not willing to do the same thing for already queer characters and deny and undersell all the ways they do fit what we're asking for. The double standard of it all comes off as another moment where queer people will idealize straight people and it really bothers me.

Nods I can feel that. I think it might come from a place of wanting to clearly show this is a trope that doesn't exist the way it's desired, so like, pushing back against it so that the request can't be dismissed as "wev you already kind of have it so shush" but I can see how it comes across like that too.

[daveliam]

I don't really care if Dorian counts or not, I'm just tired of seeing everyone bend over backwards for straight characters and be an apologist for all the ways they don't fit what we're asking, yet we're not willing to do the same thing for already queer characters and deny and undersell all the ways they do fit what we're asking for. The double standard of it all comes off as another moment where queer people will idealize straight people and it really bothers me.

 

This seems really harsh, in my opinion.  The Alistair, Cullen, Blackwall type of guy has not been gay and some people would like to see that type of guy being gay.  It's not about devaluing the existing bisexual and gay guys, but none of them fit that type.  Dorian has a few things in common with them, but it's not the same.  Again, it's Tony Stark versus Captain America. 

 

Frankly, the hostile tone in the past day accusing people of 'idealizing straight people' and 'internalized homophobia' has made me really want to avoid this thread, and that's a shame because it's a very enjoyable thread up until now.  And, I find it particularly disturbing that it's coming from other gay people. 

 

I'm just going to lay low and avoid the thread for a bit, I think, because I'm not interested in turning this thread into the rest of the BSN, where tempers rise and insults fly.

[In Exile]

I don't really care if Dorian counts or not, I'm just tired of seeing everyone bend over backwards for straight characters and be an apologist for all the ways they don't fit what we're asking, yet we're not willing to do the same thing for already queer characters and deny and undersell all the ways they do fit what we're asking for. The double standard of it all comes off as another moment where queer people will idealize straight people for being straight and it really bothers me.

I really think it comes down more to individual characters. Appearance aside, I think each of us likes different things in guys (and in my case, gals). For example, I don't think Cassandra is a KISA at all. She's very much a knight, but and she's oriented toward charity with an idealistic view of the chantey, but she's also incredibly pragmatic when it comes to certain things. Her conflict oriented personality is also something I think is at odds with the trope.

[Lieutenant Kurin]

This seems really harsh, in my opinion.  The Alistair, Cullen, Blackwall type of guy has not been gay and some people would like to see that type of guy being gay.  It's not about devaluing the existing bisexual and gay guys, but none of them fit that type.  Dorian has a few things in common with them, but it's not the same.  Again, it's Tony Stark versus Captain America. 

 

Frankly, the hostile tone in the past day accusing people of 'idealizing straight people' and 'internalized homophobia' has made me really want to avoid this thread, and that's a shame because it's a very enjoyable thread up until now.  And, I find it particularly disturbing that it's coming from other gay people. 

 

I'm just going to lay low and avoid the thread for a bit, I think, because I'm not interested in turning this thread into the rest of the BSN, where tempers rise and insults fly.

 

Yeah, same. I'm beginning to live in an irrational fear of this thread being shut down because my temper showed about a second ago. Time to take a breath.

[ThreeF]

I think he is playing at a KISA but he's not really one until the very end. KISAs aren't required to have spotless pasts, but they need to have very clear ideals about morals going forward and that's not something that always works for characters with twisted paths. It does work for BW tho.

But it's not a classic KISA romance, it's very dark and complex, and I don't think that's really what people would want for the first gay KISA, lmfao. Like I loooove his romance, it's up there with Sera and Dorian as my faves, but Cullen would have been a better choice probably.

The tj

Yeah his romance is not that of a KISA but his outward role-playing of "Blackwall" is (I hope he doesn't end up as typical KISA because he painfully needs a dose of moderation in how he projects his believes). Cullen romance is build around awkwardness, but you could very well link it to other things besides him being an introvert and his questionable inexperience, there are some glimpses of him trying to be the protector, though. In either case I don't see IQ being Damsel in Distress.

 

 

 

I don't really care if Dorian counts or not, I'm just tired of seeing everyone bend over backwards for straight characters and be an apologist for all the ways they don't fit what we're asking, yet we're not willing to do the same thing for already queer characters and deny and undersell all the ways they do fit what we're asking for. The double standard of it all comes off as another moment where queer people will idealize straight people for being straight and it really bothers me.

This seems to be an  exaggeration (never mind that I'm unsure what you mean "for being straight"). I really think it boils down to wanting variety.

 

I for one wouldn't mind to see a typically "masculine" guy as a gay character in the same way I wouldn't mind seeing a more "feminine" guy as a straight character.

[eyezonlyii]

I was going to write a long post refuting Disgusted Noise's points, but I'm just not. It's not worth the stress levels, especially before heading into work. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

 

This seems to be an  exaggeration (never mind that I'm unsure what you mean "for being straight"). I really think it boils down to wanting variety.

 

I for one wouldn't mind to see a typically "masculine" guy as a gay character in the same way I wouldn't mind seeing a more "feminine" guy as a straight character.

Because most of the posters in this thread are willing to give straight characters a lot of leniency for whether or not they qualify as KISA, but aren't willing to allow queer characters even an inch about things place where they don't fit the trope and will go so far as lampoon their admirable qualities (Dorian's idealism is just being rebellious, ect). What's the difference? One if straight and one isn't.

[leadintea]

Well, anyways, drama aside, does anyone else here not really care so much for a gay KISA? I mean, I think the idea is great and all, but for me personally, as long as we get a guy that isn't a variation of the lovable rogue or a knight in sour armor, I wouldn't really mind what category they fall into. I think, for example, a sweet bookish and nerdish type, like a mix of Solas and Josephine, would be pretty cute, or an idealistic and well meaning mercenary, or something like that, As long as the next gay/bi male romance (though I'd prefer if they were gay) is more cute/sensual than sexy/primal, I really wouldn't mind what or who exactly they were.