7143 réponses à ce sujet

[(Disgusted noise.)]

This seems really harsh, in my opinion.  The Alistair, Cullen, Blackwall type of guy has not been gay and some people would like to see that type of guy being gay.  It's not about devaluing the existing bisexual and gay guys, but none of them fit that type.  Dorian has a few things in common with them, but it's not the same.  Again, it's Tony Stark versus Captain America. 

 

Frankly, the hostile tone in the past day accusing people of 'idealizing straight people' and 'internalized homophobia' has made me really want to avoid this thread, and that's a shame because it's a very enjoyable thread up until now.  And, I find it particularly disturbing that it's coming from other gay people. 

 

I'm just going to lay low and avoid the thread for a bit, I think, because I'm not interested in turning this thread into the rest of the BSN, where tempers rise and insults fly.

If you want gay Captain America, then say you want gay Captain America rather than trying to make some Dragon Age characters into Captain America when they're not while refusing to let other Dragon Age characters be Captain America when they have some qualities in common with him too. You're the one who's posted "Alistair, Aveline, Sebastian, Cullen, Cassandra, Blackwall" several times and you're willing to make a lot of exceptions on their behalf, but won't make them for Dorian. That's my problem.

[daveliam]

Because most of the posters in this thread are willing to give straight characters a lot of leniency for whether or not they qualify as KISA, but aren't willing to allow queer characters even an inch about things place where they don't fit the trope and will go so far as lampoon their admirable qualities (Dorian's idealism is just being rebellious, ect). What's the difference? One if straight and one isn't.

 

Again, it's the difference between Lawful Good and Chaotic Good.  Captain America/Superman v. Tony Stark/Spiderman.  Lancelot v. Robin Hood.

A KISA type doesn't have to be perfect and there are certainly twists on the type, which are welcome.  But Dorian just doesn't fit it for me.  See my post several pages ago where I explain why.  None of those reasons have anything to do with him not being 'straight acting'.  I like and appreciate Dorian for who he is, but he doesn't fit this trope to me.

 

Dorian is great.  And he's a good guy.  And he's my favorite DA romance.  But he's not what this trope entails.  If you can't see that, I don't know what else to tell you. 

 

 

If you want gay Captain America, then say you want gay Captain America rather than trying to make some Dragon Age characters into Captain America when they're not while refusing to let other Dragon Age characters be Captain America when they have some qualities in common with him too. You're the one who's posted "Alistair, Aveline, Sebastian, Cullen, Cassandra, Blackwall" several times and you're willing to make a lot of exceptions on their behalf, but won't make them for Dorian. That's my problem.

 

I've already explained numerous times where I see Dorian aligning with the trope and where I see him not aligning with it.  For me, he falls outside of the trope.

 

And I've explained the ways in which Sebastian and Blackwall fall outside of the trope and where they fall within it.  Sebastian I can concede.  "Blackwall" (not Thom Ranier) is like the embodiment of the trope.  A dark past doesn't exclude one from being a KISA, particularly when you are a KISA specifically to make amends for your dark past.  To me that's why he is definitely in the trope.

[eyezonlyii]

Because most of the posters in this thread are willing to give straight characters a lot of leniency for whether or not they qualify as KISA, but aren't willing to allow queer characters even an inch about things place where they don't fit the trope and will go so far as lampoon their admirable qualities (Dorian's idealism is just being rebellious, ect). What's the difference? One if straight and one isn't.

It's his personality that is the sticking point. And the way he goes about doing that good, as I stated earlier. And as mentioned, it is the divide between Tony Stark and Steve Rogers. Both are clearly good guys and even if you want to get meta with it, Tony does wield Excalibur at one point, so yes, there are some crossovers with knightly qualities. No one is saying Dorian doesn't have good qualities, but he has fewer "knightly qualities" than the other guys. And you keep mentioning queer characters, plural, yet the only one you seem to bring up is Dorian. Which is kind of the point, there are so few queer characters with any significant amount of the KISA traits that you can only hold one mage as a counter example to our request. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I just want to say I've never mentioned anything about "straight acting" or "masculine" or anything to do with gender expression period. A lot of people have been putting words in my mouth about that.

[veeia]

I can see where DN is coming from.

Alistair is, from my POV and I ADORE him, a whiny naive baby who rage quits when things don't go his way, so it can be jarring to see him held up as some paragon of knighthood while Dorian, who can be just as snarky and defensive, actually does stick through the hard bits because his ideals are more important than his insecurities, doesn't get that.

I can also understand why Alistair gets the KISA status and Dorian doesn't, because y'all have laid it out well enough for my satisfaction, haha.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

It's his personality that is the sticking point. And the way he goes about doing that good, as I stated earlier. And as mentioned, it is the divide between Tony Stark and Steve Rogers. Both are clearly good guys and even if you want to get meta with it, Tony does wield Excalibur at one point, so yes, there are some crossovers with knightly qualities. No one is saying Dorian doesn't have good qualities, but he has fewer "knightly qualities" than the other guys. And you keep mentioning queer characters, plural, yet the only one you seem to bring up is Dorian. Which is kind of the point, there are so few queer characters with any significant amount of the KISA traits that you can only hold one mage as a counter example to our request. 

You're right, I only mention Dorian because he's the only one worth mentioning. Dragon Age has done a terrible job with diversity among queer characters, which is why I originally came in this thread to begin with. I agree with the basic premise, what I don't agree is with how the premise is applied unequally among characters.

 

For example, Dorian's personality. Yeah, he's snarky. But Alistair is a cowardly beta male, Cassandra is a ruthless pragmatist, and Sebastian is a self-centered hypocrite. Those aren't standard KISA personalities either, yet again, they're allowed exceptions when Dorian isn't.

[daveliam]

You're right, I only mention Dorian because he's the only one worth mentioning. Dragon Age has done a terrible job with diversity among queer characters, which is why I originally came in this thread to begin with. I agree with the basic premise, what I don't agree is with how the premise is applied unequally among characters.

 

For example, Dorian's personality. Yeah, he's snarky. But Alistair is a cowardly beta male, Cassandra is a ruthless pragmatist, and Sebastian is a self-centered hypocrite. Those aren't standard KISA personalities either, yet again, they're allowed exceptions when Dorian isn't.

 

Because that's one example.  If that was the only reason why he was being excluded, then I'd agree with you.  But then there's 'lawful' approach, which Dorian doesn't have, but the others do.  Then there's the fact that he's a support spec'd mage, but the others are frontline soldiers (sword and board, armored warriors).  Then there's the fact his personality includes a hedonistic enjoyment of excess, like drinking and casual sex, which is not really like the others.  It's not that Dorian doesn't fit just one aspect of it, he doesn't fit numerous aspects of it.  And to me, those all add up to him being a great character and a 'good person', but not a KISA.

 

In DA2, Sebastian was more of a KISA type.  I agree with you that he's not that way at all in DA: I.  He's more of a religious despot bent on creating a holy war for personal vengeance.  But in DA 2, outside of being an archer, he's much more in line with the traits that we would align with being a KISA.

 

Look, you clearly don't agree with me on this.  And that's fine.  But the negative, passive-aggressive comments being tossed towards the people who want to see this character type seems excessive.  I don't enjoy being told that I'm idealizing characters 'just for being straight' (I've been clear that I adore Dorian, but in a different way and I created the Bull appreciate thread, so I certainly am a huge fan of the LGBT guys in this game), nor being told that I'm projecting internalized homophobia.  I know that the latter comment was not you, but you replied in agreement with that poster and then moved into the former statements, so I was seeing them as linked.  If that was incorrect on my part, then I apologize.  That being said, I get enough crap from people telling me that I'm 'not gay enough', 'not a real gay', 'just pretending to be straight', etc., so this touches on a nerve in the real world for me. 

[veeia]

Well, anyways, drama aside, does anyone else here not really care so much for a gay KISA? I mean, I think the idea is great and all, but for me personally, as long as we get a guy that isn't a variation of the lovable rogue or a knight in sour armor, I wouldn't really mind what category they fall into. I think, for example, a sweet bookish and nerdish type, like a mix of Solas and Josephine, would be pretty cute, or an idealistic and well meaning mercenary, or something like that, As long as the next gay/bi male romance (though I'd prefer if they were gay) is more cute/sensual than sexy/primal, I really wouldn't mind what or who exactly they were.

 

I could write a book about all the types of f/f relationships I'd like to see, KISA included but by all means not the only one, but I think I'd just bum myself out, tbh. 

[sandalisthemaker]

Woah, let's calm down everyone. Please.

 

When I created this thread, I was asking for:

 

A gay (preferrably) or bisexual Warrior ( not a mage, and not a rogue ) who is noble (in character, not necessarily of noble birth or status) and who does not have questionable morals. A dark past is okay, but they can't currently have a dark streak. 

 

For the record regarding Dorian and Sebastian:  neither of them count for me personally as a KISA. 

 

And that is okay. Dorian is a great character who I love. He has many wonderful qualities.  Sebastian on the other hand, I dislike. A lot.

 

No homophobia is intended in this thread. I love sassy, fabulous, and flamboyant characters. We haven't had a companion who is truly flamboyant, although Dorian does have some fabulous qualities. Again that is great. I love him for it,  but for the purposes of this thread, I would like the KISA to be the opposite of flamboyant and sassy. 

[In Exile]

You're right, I only mention Dorian because he's the only one worth mentioning. Dragon Age has done a terrible job with diversity among queer characters, which is why I originally came in this thread to begin with. I agree with the basic premise, what I don't agree is with how the premise is applied unequally among characters.

For example, Dorian's personality. Yeah, he's snarky. But Alistair is a cowardly beta male, Cassandra is a ruthless pragmatist, and Sebastian is a self-centered hypocrite. Those aren't standard KISA personalities either, yet again, they're allowed exceptions when Dorian isn't.

But there isn't a hive mind here. I was the one who contested the KISA label for Cass at a few points in the thread. I'd also contest it for Aveline and Blackwall, but that's a separate debate.

I don't think Dorian qualifies as a KISA because while he's got the right personality for it - and let's remember that Alistair had a lot of roguish personality traits - he defines himself in opposition to a duty-bound outlook. I think that's an important part of the trope and what draws some people to classify say Sebastian or Blackwall as part of it. That's what makes Cassandra seem to fit as well.

[leadintea]

I could write a book about all the types of f/f relationships I'd like to see, KISA included but by all means not the only one, but I think I'd just bum myself out, tbh. 

 

You don't have to go indepth. Just list your top 2 or 3 favorite types of romance you'd like to see.

[ThreeF]

Because most of the posters in this thread are willing to give straight characters a lot of leniency for whether or not they qualify as KISA, but aren't willing to allow queer characters even an inch about things place where they don't fit the trope and will go so far as lampoon their admirable qualities (Dorian's idealism is just being rebellious, ect). What's the difference? One if straight and one isn't.

hmm... to me Dorian is idealist in that he is willing to fight a possibly futile battle, but I think he is also aware of it being futile, perhaps in a way he is even more idealistic than the others, but his awareness excludes him from the 'wide-eyes' category for me, if this makes sense. Realistically speaking Alistair is what typically happens to the 'wide-eyes' category. In this regard Cullen's idealism in DAI can be viewed as desperation (I generally don't see him as KISA beyond his stubborn need to protect).

 

There is also one more stereotyping that I'm noticing and that is of KISA being an Introvert rather than Extrovert, with which I'm not sure I agree as being something that defines KISA, perhaps this ventures more into the stoic trope.

 

 

Lancelot v. Robin Hood

 

erm..Lancelot is not KISA, Galahad is.

 

 

I don't think Dorian qualifies as a KISA because while he's got the right personality for it - and let's remember that Alistair had a lot of roguish personality traits - he defines himself in opposition to a duty-bound outlook. I think that's an important part of the trope and what draws some people to classify say Sebastian or Blackwall as part of it. That's what makes Cassandra seem to fit as well.

 

huh? Dorian does what he does because he thinks it is his duty to own up and do something about the situation in Tevinter.

[daveliam]

erm..Lancelot is not KISA, Galahad is.

 

HA!  That's who I meant, I think.  I'm not super familiar with the Arthurian literature.  The majority of my references come from this:

 

[leadintea]

huh? Dorian does what he does because he thinks it is his duty to own up and do something about the situation in Tevinter.

 

As he spits in the immediate duty to his family since it's not something that interests him. And he does very little about the situation in Tevinter except gripe and complain about it while leaving the task to others to fulfill.

[ThreeF]

As he spits in the immediate duty to his family since it's not something that interests him. And he does very little about the situation in Tevinter except gripe and complain about it while leaving the task to others to fulfill.

What his duty to his family has to do with his duty to his country (as he perceives it)? If anything his duty to his family is in direct conflict with his duty to his country. As for doing very little, maybe, but at any rate he is a minor character in a story that is not about Tevinter, I'm not entirely sure what did you expected?

[DirkJake]

 

This seems to be an  exaggeration (never mind that I'm unsure what you mean "for being straight"). I really think it boils down to wanting variety.

 

I for one wouldn't mind to see a typically "masculine" guy as a gay character in the same way I wouldn't mind seeing a more "feminine" guy as a straight character.

 

That is my "agenda" in this thread actually; to see more variety in gay characters. I think most people here agree that Dorian is a great gay character and that Bioware did a very good job with him. 

 

What I like to see for the next gay character is one who has different qualities and personalities that differ significantly from Dorian's. If Bioware maintains their standard as when they created Dorian, I think we will have another interesting gay character to explore. Straight characters have monopoly in character diversity, and I love to see that changed.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

As he spits in the immediate duty to his family since it's not something that interests him. And he does very little about the situation in Tevinter except gripe and complain about it while leaving the task to others to fulfill.

Yes, he clearly should have managed an entire overhaul of Tevinter culture during his free time while saving the world.

[leadintea]

What his duty to his family has to do with his duty to his country (as he perceives it)? If anything his duty to his family is in direct conflict with his duty to his country. As for doing very little, maybe, but at any rate he is a minor character in a story that is not about Tevinter, I'm not entirely sure what did you expected?

 

 

Yes, he clearly should have managed an entire overhaul of Tevinter culture during his free time while saving the world.

 

I don't want to turn this into a topic about Dorian/Tevinter, but Dorian could easily have fulfilled his duty to his family and use that power, as well as the recognition from defeating Corypheus to influence the Archon to take him as an apprentice and become the next Archon and change things in Tevinter. Granted, we don't really know exactly how things work in Tevinter, but from the knowledge we have as well as how all our previous companions have entered higher positions of power in such a way (Alistair, Sten, the Divines), this seems like a very likely outcome.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I don't want to turn this into a topic about Dorian/Tevinter, but Dorian could easily have fulfilled his duty to his family and use that power, as well as the recognition from defeating Corypheus to influence the Archon to take him as an apprentice and become the next Archon and change things in Tevinter. Granted, we don't really know exactly how things work in Tevinter, but from the knowledge we have as well as how all our previous companions have entered higher positions of power in such a way (Alistair, Sten, the Divines), this seems like a very likely outcome.

Maybe he'll do so anyway, without entering into a sham marriage. Maybe he'll change Tevinter without becoming a politician. Maybe he'll wash his hands of the whole godforsaken country and become a dairy farmer. You're making an awful lot of assumptions considering we have no knowledge of what happens to Thedas after the epilogue at this point.

[leadintea]

Maybe he'll do so anyway, without entering into a sham marriage. Maybe he'll change Tevinter without becoming a politician. Maybe he'll wash his hands of the whole godforsaken country and become a dairy farmer. You're making an awful lot of assumptions considering we have no knowledge of what happens to Thedas after the epilogue at this point.

 

It's clear that Dorian is going back to Tevinter, so I doubt he'll become a dairy farmer or abandon Tevinter, but you're completely right about the rest. He could become a Gary Stu and have every single one of his problems resolved without having any complications, and with the way his fanbase is, I don't doubt it either.

[ThreeF]

Straight characters have monopoly in character diversity, and I love to see that changed.

Straight characters have their own persistent quirks I personally wouldn't mind to never see again

 

However I must say that I never want to see a character that is just a trope, ever (not that DA has any).

[Grieving Natashina]

 

Straight characters have their own persistent quirks I personally wouldn't mind to never see again 

 

However I must say that I never want to see a character that is just a trope, ever (not that DA has any).

 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, and if I am, please forgive me.  

 

I've been reading this thread since it started, and I haven't seen anyone say they wanted a perfect trope, or a stereotype.   The trope name in the title was used for simplicity sake, and because it fit the archetype that many folks (including me) have been requesting.  BioWare loves to take a traditional archetype and turn it on it's head often, so as you said it's not a concern for this company.  We know it wouldn't be typical, and we know that we aren't going to get 100% of everything we're requesting here.  

 

Still, I think requesting an archetype is a great place to start.  I'm also sure that the devs/writers do lurk on the BSN, and with the length of time this thread has been around, it has been very likely read by those that can take this into consideration.

 

Character archetypes have existed as long as there has been stories to tell, and long before writing.  In this case, no one would want a gay/bisexual KISA to be just a perfect trope, or a total clone of Alistair or anything like that.  The folks posting in want this archetype in general, with BioWare's unique spin on it.  

 

As an example, no one said that they couldn't have a sense of humor more like Dorian, or that they have to enjoy battle less than Iron Bull.   You can have some of those traits, and be a Lawful Good knightly type.  I swear, too many folks assume that someone that's going to be a KISA/Paladin type to "self righteous douche bag and/or boring as hell,"  when it shouldn't be that way.  

 

That last part isn't directed towards anyone in particular, just some frustration on my part after playing D&D for almost 30 years.  _{Holy crap, I'm getting old.}

 

 I'm one of those that would like a bisexual KISA, because it would be nice to have bisexuals portrayed in a more honorable light, rather than a mercenary or a rogue.  Don't get me wrong, as my favorite romances have included Iron Bull and Isabela, but it would be nice to see more variety.  However, given some of the choices I have been given in the past (since I am bisexual and that automatically opens up more choices for me,) I'll happily cheer for my gay brothers and lesbian sisters to have that representation as well.   I'm more than content to wait my turn.  

 

I think the subtitle of this thread should be: Things that would be nice to see, but that we would never demand be in the Dragon Age games. 

[ThreeF]

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, and if I am, please forgive me.  

 

You probably were, but I don't mind,  in fact you haven't said a single thing I don't agree with.

[veeia]

I don't think anything that's been in this thread can be interpreted as demanding, so I don't think a subtitle would be needed, haha.

I mean I know its policy in this forum for the most well meaning and respectful of threads to get WOW ENTITLED MUCH responses, and iirc this one has definitely had a few of those, but I would hope that anyone who works for Bioware has better reading comprehension than that.

[Lieutenant Kurin]

I think the subtitle of this thread should be: Things that would be nice to see, but that we would never demand be in the Dragon Age games. 

 

I don't think anything that's been in this thread can be interpreted as demanding, so I don't think a subtitle would be needed, haha.

I mean I know its policy in this forum for the most well meaning and respectful of threads to get WOW ENTITLED MUCH responses, and iirc this one has definitely had a few of those, but I would hope that anyone who works for Bioware has better reading comprehension than that.

 

Same, also I get scared when I feel like I have to apologize for other people's gross assumptions about me. This thread is under the subforum of Feedback & Suggestions, and has always had a remarkably civil tone. I think that's enough to convince and dev who have, are, or are intending to read this that we are by no means demanding but suggesting out of concern for lack of representation.

 

That's why the idea that we're homophobic or love straight acting seems farcical to me, because the majority of us believe this character archetype is missing from gay representation, not just in BioWare games, but in media as a whole.

 

Anyway, best we drop the small temper solar flare before it catches some driftwood.

 

Also, in everything else Natashina, I agree with you .