7143 réponses à ce sujet

[Lieutenant Kurin]

I wrote a whole paragraph before I decided that I can't explain myself without (apparently) being condescending, so I think I'm gonna take another break.

[Grieving Natashina]

I wrote a whole paragraph before I decided that I can't explain myself without (apparently) being condescending, so I think I'm gonna take another break.

In honor of Robin Williams:

 

[daveliam]

 

You're correct. Dorian is hardly a stereotype, he's not actually flamboyant, he's certainly not "flaming". But it's clear from reading comments here that to some people Dorian does not meet their expectations of how gay men should be and act. And yes, I'd love for Bioware to be daring enough to include a flamboyant gay companion. I don't believe it will ever happen, with people reinforcing regressive notions of masculinity (this applies to females as well, but it'd be a disservice to everyone for me to speak for lesbian fans).

 

So maybe that's where the conversation went weird.  To me, there's nothing about Dorian being a poor representation for gay people.  I think he's actually an awesome representative.  A gay man that is unapologetically gay and charming and likeable and a badass.  He's just not a 'knight in shining armor', so he doesn't fit into the trope for me.

 

 

I'm most certainly not against the inclusion of a straight acting (is this the word I should use?) gay male, but is it necessary to make up a silly trope and dismissing flamboyant characters as "not valid" representation?

 

So the thing with "straight acting" is that it's often used as a back-handed insult within the gay community that carries all of the stuff that came pouring out in the thread tonight:  accusations of internalized homophobia, 'straight acting' privilege, and conformity to gender roles.  On the other hand, it's also often used by some people for those very purposes.  So it's a bit of a loaded term.  Unfortunately, there's no good other word to use.  "Masculine" sometimes works, but then that brings the whole 'gender roles' debate back into the conversation.

[ThreeF]

I'm most certainly not against the inclusion of a straight acting (is this the word I should use?) gay male, but is it necessary to make up a silly trope and dismissing flamboyant characters as "not valid" representation?

 

The bottom line in this is that people like tidy boxes and that a trope is a good place as any to start with a definition of why x and not y. In the same sense one can question the definition of "straight acting", but be it "straight acting" or "knight in shiny armour" people tend to grasp a vague meaning each of these terms represent. Does saying "straight acting" makes it more clear? I'm sure you know that it doesn't and I'm sure you know that if you want you can see it as being a very loaded term.

 

I'm not even sure if  just saying " it should be a character like Alistair, Cullen, Cassandra, Aveline, Sebastian" would make it clearer and would not result in the same sort of conversation we are having now. Try to define what is so uniquely similar about them and every person will have a (slightly) different opinion.

 

Also, nobody actually wants a Lawful Good DnD knight in shiny armour aka Paladin, because it will be a caricature and this is probably why people try to additionally define it in their own way. 

[Lieutenant Kurin]

In honor of Robin Williams:

 

 

If I could have Robin Williams' talent by just being hungry I probably would never eat anything ever again.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

So the thing with "straight acting" is that it's often used as a back-handed insult within the gay community that carries all of the stuff that came pouring out in the thread tonight:  accusations of internalized homophobia, 'straight acting' privilege, and conformity to gender roles.  On the other hand, it's also often used by some people for those very purposes.  So it's a bit of a loaded term.  Unfortunately, there's no good other word to use.  "Masculine" sometimes works, but then that brings the whole 'gender roles' debate back into the conversation.

What does "straight acting" actually mean anyway? is a stupid term, people have individual personalities afterall & shouldn't really get abuse for not conforming enough to stereotypes or gender roles

[Grieving Natashina]

What does "straight acting" actually mean anyway? is a stupid term, people have individual personalities afterall & shouldn't really get abuse for not conforming enough to stereotypes or gender roles

 

I'm out of likes, so I hope this will do.  

[eyezonlyii]

Unpopular opinion ahoy:

 

Dorian does fit the flamboyant stereotype to me. He's catty with Vivienne and then the snarky, put down master in regards to Solas and Blackwall. Seriously, those three character banters alone make me roll my eyes when people say he's not a walking definition. It's probably unintentional for the most part, but then again, Bioware did write Jacob Taylor from Mass Effect and if you know anything about his character story, I would hope you would know why I would bring that up. Back to Dorian, there is also a moment when if you're in a relationship with him, you can say "Let's spend some time together" or something to that effect. One of his responses is about how the two of them can go watch the soldiers "hit each other with sticks, while I critique their outfits". ( ) 

 

So yes, there are some unfortunate stereotypes rolled up into young Master Pavus, and again, I will iterate, I like Dorian as a character. In fact, I would probably be Dorian, even down to the whole dramatic father bit (though mine didn't as far as I know plan to send me to be "cured", so point for me I guess). Anyway, this guy:    

Spoiler

is not considered a KISA, and he's almost a direct parallel to Dorian, except not gay. We've posted numerous times on what constitutes a KISA and there have been many examples given, but there are a few besides the major ones that have been excluded, such as Justice from DA: Awakening and Ser Barris from Inquisition. Those two, as little as we have seen of them are to me the epitome of what a KISA is anyway.

[AresKeith]

Unpopular opinion ahoy:

 

Dorian does fit the flamboyant stereotype to me. He's catty with Vivienne and then the snarky, put down master in regards to Solas and Blackwall. Seriously, those three character banters alone make me roll my eyes when people say he's not a walking definition. 

 

Those aren't really restricted to flamboyant people though 

[eyezonlyii]

Those aren't really restricted to flamboyant people though 

Not at all, but it is the prevailing media portrayal of gay men, and one that I hope a gay KISA will combat.

 

EDIT: I googled "flamboyant" just so I could know exactly what the definition was to work with and this is what I got: (of a person or their behavior) tending to attract attention because of their exuberance, confidence, and stylishness.

 

And this is definitely Dorian, so yes a textbook (well Miriam Webster dictionary) definition of flamboyant. The put downs and cattyness are just bonus prizes.

[In Exile]

That's helpful. I appreciate the insight and I apologize for my tactlessness. I can see how it wasn't the happiest choice of words.

It struck me as disingenuous as I mentioned earlier. Look at the examples of Knight types in the OP: Alistair, Cullen, Blackwall. Alistair is snarky, insecure, timid and vengeful, he'll also go along with whatever the Warden does including murdering innocents. No amount of retconing can adress the mess that Cullen was in DAO and DA2; racist, prejudiced and violent (guy's been through a lot, but damn... killing three apprentices and running off). And Blackwall... well, let's leave it there. Common denominator between the three? I guess they're all warriors. But then, why is Fenris notably absent from that list? Because he's a "bad boy"?

P. S. @sandalisthemaker: I feel like I come off as being critical of you particularly by referring to the OP multiple times. It is not so. I appreciate the comment you made in the previous page, and I respect your desire to see an archetype rarely associated with queer characters. It's just some things that make me raise an eyebrow.

Regarding Blackwall, I'm pretty sure the OP was written pre-release. We can certainly debate whether or not Blackwall falls into the trope but I think there's a substantial degree of leeway necessary for character profiles pre-release.

As I said repeatedly, this debate regarding the straight purported examples turns a lot on your interpretation of their character. I'll focus again on Alistair, since I think while it's true those traits are part of his features there's a very real debate as to whether or not those are the foreground or the background. Since Bioware characters are generally not cardboard cut outs, we can identity both the positive and negative features of their personality.

There are two features of the trope: the "knight" part, which entails both the being part of a knightly order or equivalent part, the duty-focused existence part, and the being a warrior part, and the "in shinning armour" part, which carries with it connotations of a particular moral compass. All of these things are part of the trope.

Alistair is vocal about being heroic. Even if we set aside the narrative reasons as to why he can't outright revolt against the comically evil behaviours of the Warden PC, we do see him object - often quite vocally - to any choice that is not the stereotypically noble choice. That's the moral compass that he purports to uphold. It's the "shnining armour" part of the trope. The knight part comes in both with regard to his membership (GW more so than Templar), his general inclination to follow duty (regardless of whether you think he has an idealised view of it; he's never really been instructed in an alternative) and his being a warrior.

So we come back again to different character explanations.

[Roamingmachine]

Hey guys, haven't been here for a while and...

*reads the posts from the last 24 hours*

Oh bloody hell.

 

Came for the pictures of hawt, strong guy/gals in shining armor that this thread was all about, got reminded of why i generally don't get involved with the Rainbow community outside the bedroom instead >.<

[ThreeF]

^the gif hurts my eyes, can you kindly  put  it in spoilers? thank  you.

 

 

As I said repeatedly, this debate regarding the straight purported examples turns a lot on your interpretation of their character. I'll focus again on Alistair, since I think while it's true those traits are part of his features there's a very real debate as to whether or not those are the foreground or the background. Since Bioware characters are generally not cardboard cut outs, we can identity both the positive and negative features of their personality.

 

And this is  basically why people can't  agree to which degree the trope fit each character. I mean I could easily point that when Alistair's sense of duty is tested it goes downhill and shifts focus, mainly because his character was never meant to be about duty.  KISA is the perfect knight there are no perfect people in DA.

[eyezonlyii]

There's an interview posted in a hidden thread that talks about how when Bioware comes up with a character, they start with the broadest strokes possible, so in this case that would probably be "knight" or "warrior", then they would narrow it down from there. All this thread is seeking is that gay be added to that list along with the other connotations of the word knight.

[sandalisthemaker]

That's helpful. I appreciate the insight and I apologize for my tactlessness. I can see how it wasn't the happiest choice of words.
 

It struck me as disingenuous as I mentioned earlier. Look at the examples of Knight types in the OP: Alistair, Cullen, Blackwall. Alistair is snarky, insecure, timid and vengeful, he'll also go along with whatever the Warden does including murdering innocents. No amount of retconing can adress the mess that Cullen was in DAO and DA2; racist, prejudiced and violent (guy's been through a lot, but damn... killing three apprentices and running off). And Blackwall... well, let's leave it there. Common denominator between the three? I guess they're all warriors. But then, why is Fenris notably absent from that list? Because he's a "bad boy"?

P. S. @sandalisthemaker: I feel like I come off as being critical of you particularly by referring to the OP multiple times. It is not so. I appreciate the comment you made in the previous page, and I respect your desire to see an archetype rarely associated with queer characters. It's just some things that make me raise an eyebrow.

 

Thing is, none of those companions have been perfect examples of a knight in shining armor. They all have aspects that diverge from the "ideal" knight, and that is what makes them interesting and multi-faceted.  I think people here have fixated on the companions that we already have and are picking apart why they should or shouldn't be considered a KISA.  In general terms, Alistair, Cassandra, Cullen, and yes Blackwall because despite his past, he has taken on the identity of a KISA and has run with it- they are all warriors with noble qualities and a strong sense of doing what it right. Do they have their fautls? Of course. That's what makes them interesting.  

 

Dorian keeps getting mentioned.  Does he have noble qualities and a strong sense of doing what is right?  Yes. Definitely.  But is he literally a warrior in shining armor? No.  It may seem trivial, but I'm specifically asking for a someone with these knightly qualities, who is also a warrior.  We haven't had that with a gay companion yet.  We've come close. Dorian has some of the qualities but not the class (mage not warrior).  Fenris has the warrior status, but little to none of the characteristics of a KISA. 

 

 

You're not helping matters at all. Solas and Blackwall get into the most blunt debates with Vivienne (and Dorian) and I don't see anyone calling them "catty". Varric and Cassandra as well. Blackwall and Cassandra both still manage to be knight types.
"Put down master"... what does that even mean? In most of his banter, Dorian tries to be friendly to Solas, with Solas calling him out on his er... Thedas' equivalent of white-guilt. Many times it's also Blackwall/Solas/Vivienne the ones starting the bickering, with Dorian having none of their BS.

Liking fashion is an unfortunate stereotype now? Maybe, you know... people are just individuals who happen to have specific tastes which may fall or not into stereotypes created by society. Maybe you should, in fact, listen to Kurin's bit about gender orientation and personality. And are we seriously comparing Dorian to Jacob now?
 

The word media is way too wide. For instance, I hardly even know comic book characters that are flamboyant. Machinesmith is the one that fits the "stereotype" the most, and he's a C list villain. Same thing with videogames. I don't expect Bioware to balance out the representation of the LGBT community in media. It's a ridiculous burden to place upon content creators. Among their own franchises, maybe.

 

I wouldn't consider Dorian catty, personally.  When you actually listen to all of his banters, he is one of the nicest, sweetest companions we've had. He wants to be friends with everyone, but at the same time, he doesn't want to appear too sentimental and mushy.  His pomp and snark is half defense mechanism and half for the lulz. Is he fabulous? Sure, but he owns it and it works. I wouldn't have him any other way. He is not a raging stereotype by any means. 

[eyezonlyii]

You're not helping matters at all. Solas and Blackwall get into the most blunt debates with Vivienne (and Dorian) and I don't see anyone calling them "catty". Varric and Cassandra as well. Blackwall and Cassandra both still manage to be knight types.
"Put down master"... what does that even mean? In most of his banter, Dorian tries to be friendly to Solas, with Solas calling him out on his er... Thedas' equivalent of white-guilt. Many times it's also Blackwall/Solas/Vivienne the ones starting the bickering, with Dorian having none of their BS.

Liking fashion is an unfortunate stereotype now? Maybe, you know... people are just individuals who happen to have specific tastes which may fall or not into stereotypes created by society. Maybe you should, in fact, listen to Kurin's bit about gender orientation and personality. And are we seriously comparing Dorian to Jacob now?
 

The word media is way too wide. For instance, I hardly even know comic book characters that are flamboyant. Machinesmith is the one that fits the "stereotype" the most, and he's a C list villain. Same thing with videogames. I don't expect Bioware to balance out the representation of the LGBT community in media. It's a ridiculous burden to place upon content creators. Among their own franchises, maybe.

As I said, it's an unpopular opinion, and one that I hold no shame in having. Do I like Dorian? Yes I do very much, however when I play the game, and listening to his banter in full through videos on youtube, I do get the feeling that he does pick at everyone. Is it a defense mechanism? More than likely, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that it happens. I never said no one else wasn't catty, just that Dorian is. And I think you're wrong about who starts it usually. In the case of Blackwall/Dorian, it's definitely Dorian that starts most of it, including some of it "offscreen" if you will, such as when Blackwall asks him to stop calling him a lummox behind his back.

Liking fashion isn't bad in and of itself. What is bad however, is the fact that in the vast majority of the cases, that is a defining trait of a gay character. It's unfortunate that a taste and flair for fashion and flamboyance is synonymous with being a gay man, because there are plenty of straight  men who like fashion and plenty of gay men that don't, but the overarching narratives given to us by media (of any kind, but obviously not every piece) is one of congruence. 

I only compare Dorian to Jacob in the unfortunate implications of stereotyping that I personally saw, not as a judgement on his character. For instance all of the stereotyping that I say I saw with Dorian, I compare it to the fact that Jacob was a black character, with an absent/distant father, with said father then crash landing on a remote planet and rounding himself up a harem of submissive women to do with as he pleases, and to top it all off, Jacob himself is the only romanced character to actively cheat on Shepard AND get another woman pregnant while doing so. And somehow, all of these little things got the ok. None of them are super terribad in and of themselves, but when compared to how black men are represented in the rest of media, it was a huge disappointment, especially because he started off so chill.

The reason I bring him up, is because Dorian works the same way to me. Just as there were a lot of little things that added up to me being disappointed in Jacob, there were a few in that regard with Dorian. Overall, I love him as a character, but he is not and will never be a KISA in my eyez (HA!). Yes I know personality and sexuality are separate but when all of the non heterosexual men have had some variance of the same affable rogue/outcast portrayal in the games, it gets hard to tell whether or not the creators of the game have gotten that memo. Which again is the whole reason for this thread. 

As I've said before, somewhere in the 60-70 page mark, I know that how I feel may or may not be irksome, or offputting to others, and very well may be my own insecurities/prejudices or whatever being put on display, but I would honestly rather talk about them, and have them discussed, even if it's just to give the writers pause or thought when they start to make a new character than to just go with the "so long as we have a gay male" box tick route.

I want a gay knight

I want my gay knight to be masculine/straight acting/conform to expected gender and sex roles (except for the fact that he loves men)

I am not ashamed or afraid to admit this. 

 

In the event of a lesbian KISA

I want her to be feminine enough so she's not just a male with female animations

I want her to have agency

I want her to save a damsel in distress, or even better yet, have had a previous relationship with another woman who was never a DID to begin with

I am not ashamed or afraid to admit this.

 

If any of this ruffles your jimmies: Not sorry that I'm not sorry. We'll just have to disagree.

[DirkJake]

There's an interview posted in a hidden thread that talks about how when Bioware comes up with a character, they start with the broadest strokes possible, so in this case that would probably be "knight" or "warrior", then they would narrow it down from there. All this thread is seeking is that gay be added to that list along with the other connotations of the word knight.

 

Can anyone give me a link to this interview, please? If that's true, starting with "knight" is a good start to create a gay KISA.

 

I just also saw a post about the character descriptions from the game files, where Dorian's descriptions include:

 

"<CharacterArchetype> The Clever Rogue"

[daveliam]

Can anyone give me a link to this interview, please? If that's true, starting with "knight" is a good start to create a gay KISA.

 

I just also saw a post about the character descriptions from the game files, where Dorian's descriptions include:

 

"<CharacterArchetype> The Clever Rogue"

 

This is an awesome post. 

 

Dorian - The Clever Rogue

Cassandra - The Crusader

 

Those are the only two that have 'character archetypes' assigned. 

[eyezonlyii]

Can anyone give me a link to this interview, please? If that's true, starting with "knight" is a good start to create a gay KISA.
 
I just also saw a post about the character descriptions from the game files, where Dorian's descriptions include:
 
"<CharacterArchetype> The Clever Rogue"

Well that settles that discussion then.

[daveliam]

Well that settles that discussion then.

 

OT:  It also settles the

Spoiler

"Did Vivienne poison Bastien?" debate as well, since it's written in the game files that she was trying to save him by restoring his youth, but it failed.

[Qunquistador]

This thread man   Internalized homophobia is a maleficar. 

 

The next gay male character should act straight and must "conform to expected gender norms except for liking dudes"? What does that even mean? Perhaps someone can create a list of the stringent criteria this dynamic uber masculine male of manliness must fit so Bioware can laugh at it make the perfect, non-stereotypical gay man. No wait, I volunteer!

 

He shouldn't express too much emotion because that's a feminine quality. So maybe he shouldn't talk so much as grunt.

He can't be from Orlais or Antiva because everyone's got a penchant for high drama and clothes; too flamboyant (see: gay).

He can't be an elf because elves are small in stature, and twinky guys are also - you guessed it - too gay.

He can't be a mage who specializes in fire because they're literally flaming and that's too gay.

He can't be a rogue because they're way too charming and wily and that's too gay.

He can't even know that he's gay at first because that would be gay.

 

Follow these impossible steps, Bioware, and you will create the Canyonero of men! 

[daveliam]

You know what else is a maleficar?  Hyperbole and gross exaggerations......

 

Just sayin'