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[eyezonlyii]

This thread man   Internalized homophobia is a maleficar. 
 
The next gay male character should act straight and must "conform to expected gender norms except for liking dudes"? What does that even mean? Perhaps someone can create a list of the stringent criteria this dynamic uber masculine male of manliness must fit so Bioware can laugh at it make the perfect, non-stereotypical gay man. No wait, I volunteer!
 
He shouldn't express too much emotion because that's a feminine quality. So maybe he shouldn't talk so much as grunt.
He can't be from Orlais or Antiva because everyone's got a penchant for high drama and clothes; too flamboyant (see: gay).
He can't be an elf because elves are small in stature, and twinky guys are also - you guessed it - too gay.
He can't be a mage who specializes in fire because they're literally flaming and that's too gay.
He can't be a rogue because they're way too charming and wily and that's too gay.
He can't even know that he's gay at first because that would be gay.
 
Follow these impossible steps, Bioware, and you will create the Canyonero of men!

Wait so let me get this staight: apparently because I want a man who has more of what society deems as masculine traits, I harbor internalized homophobia? If that is your argument, then you are essentially saying that gay men can't have those traits because they're gay, which would be a contradiction in the argument separating sexuality from personality. Again, I'm not apologizing for what I want, but I will concede that we don't have a perfect term in English for it. Masculine comes close, but it really doesn't matter because people get upset no matter what you say. I'm obviously for inclusiveness in representation, and that is exactly why this thread is what it is. This thread are asking for a combination of traits such as those shared by Superman, Captain America, Arthur from Legend, Prince Charming from various fairy tales. It's extremely frustrating and insulting to be told that because I am attracted to (and in fact laying beside a snoring one right now) men like these, that I'm not a true gay man, or that I'm homophobic, which instead of its original meaning of "fear of gay people" has become morphed into some weird angry insult. Say what you want, I really won't change my mind. We all have a set of expectations when we hear the words man and woman. Whether or not we accept, celebrate or reject those common expectations are completely up to us as individuals.
The sad thing is, I wonder how many people who agree with the "internalized homophobia" statements agree or support the "make Cullen bisexual" movement because of "reasons".
As for your examples: no to a mage and rogue for obvious reasons (then again Sebastian is on the fence for some people). I'm dubious on an elf for exactly the reason you stated, and the fact that we had a broody warrior elf, and just...ugh. Anyway in order of preference: human, Dwarf, Qunari,Elf. Mostly because humans and dwarves would be the two most likely to produce such a man. But like I said just preferences.

[Qunquistador]

You know what else is a maleficar?  Hyperbole and gross exaggerations......

 

Just sayin'

Gross exaggeration? Yeah, because I totally made this up...

 

"I want my gay knight to be masculine/straight acting/conform to expected gender and sex roles"

 

Ridiculousness like this deserves to be ridiculed in as flamboyant (there's that word again) a fashion as possible. Just sayin'.

[eyezonlyii]

Gross exaggeration? Yeah, because I totally made this up...
 
"I want my gay knight to be masculine/straight acting/conform to expected gender and sex roles"[/size]
 
Ridiculousness like this deserves to be ridiculed in as flamboyant (there's that word again) a fashion as possible. Just sayin'.

What's ridiculous is coming into a thread about warrior gay men and acting offended that we want warrior gay men, with all the trappings that come with a straight warrior man. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

[daveliam]

Gross exaggeration? Yeah, because I totally made this up...

"I want my gay knight to be masculine/straight acting/conform to expected gender and sex roles"

Ridiculousness like this deserves to be ridiculed in as flamboyant (there's that word again) a fashion as possible. Just sayin'.

You would perhaps have a point if anyone here was saying that that should be the only representation of gay men. But we're not. We're saying this should be one type of representation that shows up in the series. You honestly don't see anything hypocritical in saying that gay men shouldn't act like that? By essentially saying the gay men who do act like that are somehow not as gay? And then insulting gay men for asking for that type of representation? It seems to me that you might be the one with a very narrow minded view on how gay men should act.

[TheJediSaint]

It's almost like there's no wrong way to gay.

[daveliam]

It's almost like there's no wrong way to gay.

Unless the male KISA was only available to lady PCs.....

[eyezonlyii]

Unless the male KISA was only available to lady PCs.....

But then we could start a "Make (insert character) bisexual thread".

[TheJediSaint]

Unless the male KISA was only available to lady PCs.....

Cullen can't do anything, can he?

[Qunquistador]

What's ridiculous is coming into a thread about warrior gay men and acting offended that we want warrior gay men, with all the trappings that come with a straight warrior man. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

At the risk of sounding like Vivienne, there's nothing you nor anyone in this thread could do to offend me. I'm more amused than anything; a bit saddened, perhaps, that people still hold archaic notions of what it means to be properly manly.

 

Homophobia is defined, in part, as an aversion to anything that's perceived as gay. In your previous post, you're literally asking for a gay male character who will, in no way, be perceived as gay. A character who is "straight acting", unlike Dorian as you see him.

 

Why act as if you're simply asking for a gay male warrior, which I have no qualms with, when you admitted yourself on the previous page that your opinion, about what that warrior and a man in general should be, may have a lot to do with your own insecurities?

 

If Dorian wasn't constantly mentioned as some sort of failing on Bioware's part in terms of gay representation because he conforms to some inane stereotypes, then I would have nothing to say in this thread.  But the fact that his snarkiness, interest in fashion, (has his gym body and moustache been mentioned? ) etc. keeps getting mentioned, then this thread isn't purely about creating an KISA archetype that people would want to see. It's a thread where certain people are airing their homophobia, whether they/you realize it or not.

[eyezonlyii]

At the risk of sounding like Vivienne, there's nothing you nor anyone in this thread could do to offend me. I'm more amused than anything; a bit saddened, perhaps, that people still hold archaic notions of what it means to be properly manly.
 
Homophobia is defined, in part, as an aversion to anything that's perceived as gay. In your previous post, you're literally asking for a gay male character who will, in no way, be perceived as gay. A character who is "straight acting", unlike Dorian as you see him.
 
Why act as if you're simply asking for a gay male warrior, which I have no qualms with, when you admitted yourself on the previous page that your opinion, about what that warrior and a man in general should be, may have a lot to do with your own insecurities?
 
If Dorian wasn't constantly mentioned as some sort of failing on Bioware's part in terms of gay representation because he conforms to some inane stereotypes, then I would have nothing to say in this thread.  But the fact that his snarkiness, interest in fashion, (has his gym body and moustache been mentioned? ) etc. keeps getting mentioned, then this thread isn't purely about creating an KISA archetype that people would want to see. It's a thread where certain people are airing their homophobia, whether they/you realize it or not.

I don't remember ever saying Dorian was a fail in representation. What I do remember saying is I want someone and something else as well. And about the warrior not being " identifiably gay". Yeah, I would like that, simply because most of the other gay or nonhet males in the game cone with almost a neon sign of "I LIKE MEN!" So why not just a guy who likes men and that's that? It's the additional characteristics of, fashion, and daddy issues and commitment issues due to upbringing, and so on, that I don't want or care for. I'm not counting the gym body because he shares the same model as most other men in the game, so it's not unique to him. As for my insecurities, they say the best defense is a good offense, so I thought I'd bring it up before someone thought they could psychoanalyze me.

[Gaesesagai]

This thread man   Internalized homophobia is a maleficar. 

 

The next gay male character should act straight and must "conform to expected gender norms except for liking dudes"? What does that even mean? Perhaps someone can create a list of the stringent criteria this dynamic uber masculine male of manliness must fit so Bioware can laugh at it make the perfect, non-stereotypical gay man. No wait, I volunteer!

 

He shouldn't express too much emotion because that's a feminine quality. So maybe he shouldn't talk so much as grunt.

He can't be from Orlais or Antiva because everyone's got a penchant for high drama and clothes; too flamboyant (see: gay).

He can't be an elf because elves are small in stature, and twinky guys are also - you guessed it - too gay.

He can't be a mage who specializes in fire because they're literally flaming and that's too gay.

He can't be a rogue because they're way too charming and wily and that's too gay.

He can't even know that he's gay at first because that would be gay.

 

Follow these impossible steps, Bioware, and you will create the Canyonero of men! 

 

Ha! I literally had to exit lurker mode for this comment It's spot on.

 

As to what some* people on this thread want, and something I would like to see as well is a bit different. Or this might just be me. The way I see it, BioWare does do a bit of... stereotype casting (can we call it that?) - by this I mean the "subtle" things gay characters seem to have in common, like all rogues, and whatnot - and it's this I would like to see changed and this is the "type of kisa" I would like to see. And a more diverse representation is always good, which is why I appreciate IB (though I deslike the character lol). 

So, as long as the character is different for creative reasons, fantastic. But then we get to what a lot of people want, which is a macho str8-acting bs manly man (etc lol) for... reasons, no need to get into it, obviously people get rather crazy when you call them out on it and fiercely deny it. And that's not ok. Which brings me, for example, to IB's character and some of his dialogue with Dorian. But I digress.

Oh well. Lastly, BW did do different characters, like Steve Cortez, whom were all manly and "not gay acting" (that sounds so silly) and people still managed to ****** about **** left and right about them. Haters will hate Self-haters will hate just as much some time lol. So even if a gay kisa pops, people will comment on things like "he bottoms... he's not a real kisa -.- " haha... Anywho... I can ramble on this endlessly, so I'll stop...

 

Cheers!

 

[Going in lurker mode again]

[eyezonlyii]

http://files.riffsy....f5ec22ce454/raw
At this point this is all I have to say

[DuckDuckPotato]

What this whole thread boils down to is preference. Why people see this as the eternal "I hate my gay self" monologue eludes me. I don't see people taking this kind of preaching to straight guys liking less girly women such as Cassandra. You don't like hotdogs? Fine, just don't start preaching to those who eat hotdogs. Just let these nice people have their hotdogs with all the condiments they like on that sausage.

 

But hey, why should you listing to me? I'm just a duck who likes a nice hotdog.

[eyezonlyii]

Thank you. It's literally like knowing you're allergic to dogs, then going to a dog show and complaining about your allergies. The thread title is about gay knights in shining armor. If you don't like the traditional role alluded to by a knight in shining armor, then why post here?

[Qunquistador]

You would perhaps have a point if anyone here was saying that that should be the only representation of gay men. But we're not. We're saying this should be one type of representation that shows up in the series. You honestly don't see anything hypocritical in saying that gay men shouldn't act like that? By essentially saying the gay men who do act like that are somehow not as gay? And then insulting gay men for asking for that type of representation? It seems to me that you might be the one with a very narrow minded view on how gay men should act.

It seems to me that you might want to slow down and actually read what I wrote. Also, don't be disingenuous because you know I said no such thing as what you're implying. Quite the opposite, I was cracking jokes on anyone who thinks there's such a thing as "gay acting" or "straight acting".

 

Those are bogus standards, in my opinion. There's no proper way to be a man either, which is why I asked in my first post here what conform to sex and gender roles meant? How would the KISA do that? Could Krem be a KISA or would that be a problem?

 

At no point did I say that there was a positive/valid or a negative/invalid way for a gay man to act. 

 

Although, the implication floating around in this thread is:

femininity + gay male = stereotype = negative

masculinity + gay male = subversive = awesome!

 

I'm only here after 80 pages because there are folks in this thread who have been reinforcing that dichotomy by constantly pitting Dorian's character (who I saw as masculine in his own way) against an ideal that no one in this series has met, as far as I can tell. If this thread is merely about wanting a gay KISA, then there's no need to harp on about the failings of Lord Dorian and his twirly moustache. 

[In Exile]

Gross exaggeration? Yeah, because I totally made this up...

"I want my gay knight to be masculine/straight acting/conform to expected gender and sex roles"

Ridiculousness like this deserves to be ridiculed in as flamboyant (there's that word again) a fashion as possible. Just sayin'.

Why would it be ridiculous to want somene who's ridiculously flamboyant? Maybe that's someone's type.

[Battlebloodmage]

I just am not attracted to feminine guys, but that's just personal taste. There's nothing wrong with attracting to feminine guys just as there is nothing wrong with attracting to masculine guys. This thread seems to be about people's wishlist, and for me, when I think of a KISA, it's about the traditional romanticized KISA who's the embodiment of masculinity and chivalry.Others may have a different view, but that is what I want.

 

 

There are a lot of examples for male KISA, but for a female KISA, I think of king Arthur

 

[TheJediSaint]

As a straight guy, I feel the need to point out that masculine traits don't actually belong to us, even if they're normally attributed to us.

[Qunquistador]

Why would it be ridiculous to want somene who's ridiculously flamboyant? Maybe that's someone's type.

I'm thinking something got lost in translation here? I never said wanting anyone flamboyant or otherwise was ridiculous. 

 

I said this: "Ridiculousness like this deserves to be ridiculed in as flamboyant (there's that word again) a fashion as possible. Just sayin'."

 

Meaning I'll ridicule the notion of "straight acting" or gay acting in as OTT a way as possible, whenever possible 

 

Ha! I literally had to exit lurker mode for this comment It's spot on.

 

As to what some* people on this thread want, and something I would like to see as well is a bit different. Or this might just be me. The way I see it, BioWare does do a bit of... stereotype casting (can we call it that?) - by this I mean the "subtle" things gay characters seem to have in common, like all rogues, and whatnot - and it's this I would like to see changed and this is the "type of kisa" I would like to see. And a more diverse representation is always good, which is why I appreciate IB (though I deslike the character lol). 

So, as long as the character is different for creative reasons, fantastic. But then we get to what a lot of people want, which is a macho str8-acting bs manly man (etc lol) for... reasons, no need to get into it, obviously people get rather crazy when you call them out on it and fiercely deny it. And that's not ok. Which brings me, for example, to IB's character and some of his dialogue with Dorian. But I digress.

Oh well. Lastly, BW did do different characters, like Steve Cortez, whom were all manly and "not gay acting" (that sounds so silly) and people still managed to ****** about **** left and right about them. Haters will hate Self-haters will hate just as much some time lol. So even if a gay kisa pops, people will comment on things like "he bottoms... he's not a real kisa -.- " haha... Anywho... I can ramble on this endlessly, so I'll stop...

 

Cheers!

 

[Going in lurker mode again]

I agree with much of what you wrote, actually, but this legit made me laugh out loud. I wasn't on BSN to see any fervor about Steve, but I can imagine...or maybe I can't   (what was there to complain about?) I was going to joke that Bioware could create a paragon of manliness (Isabella's words, not mine), who'd put Prince Charming to shame and people would complain that he has 3.5 less chest hairs than Varric, but I like your example much much better 

[Battlebloodmage]

I think Iron Bull is the only confirmed top only. I would have preferred for them to keep it ambiguous. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

As a straight guy, I feel the need to point out that masculine traits don't actually belong to us, even if they're normally attributed to us.

 

Yes, which is why the phrase "straight acting" is inherently homophobic. Masculine =/= straight.

 

I wasn't on BSN to see any fervor about Steve, but I can imagine...or maybe I can't   (what was there to complain about?)

 

Because any man who is gay automatically has his gender expression harshly and unrealistically examined. If Dorian was straight, the fact that he appreciates good hygiene and personal style would just be a personality trait, but because he's gay it's just a stereotype. Likewise if Alistair was gay, his inherent beta maleness would probably be criticized to no end as perpetuating stereotypes, but because he's straight, he just gets to be himself. Straight people just get to like what they like.

[AresKeith]

Yes, which is why the phrase "straight acting" is inherently homophobic. Masculine =/= straight.

 

That shouldn't even be a thing because it sounds incredibly stupid 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I just am not attracted to feminine guys, but that's just personal taste. There's nothing wrong with attracting to feminine guys just as there is nothing wrong with attracting to masculine guys. This thread seems to be about people's wishlist, and for me, when I think of a KISA, it's about the traditional romanticized KISA who's the embodiment of masculinity and chivalry.Others may have a different view, but that is what I want.

 

 

There are a lot of examples for male KISA, but for a female KISA, I think of king Arthur

 

You get a like for the awesome Saber gif.

 

 

I think Iron Bull is the only confirmed top only. I would have preferred for them to keep it ambiguous. 

Well, they had to for him since his romance was involving BDSM stuff. 

[ThreeF]

Well, they had to for him since his romance was involving BDSM stuff. 

 

he is such a sub

[Vordish]

The entire "gay" debate is inherently based in morality. Morality is based in abstracts and absolutes. A right and wrong way to live. Sometimes people like to add additional context or whatever. Those things cannot be debated without debating "religion" or "A God".

 

It boils down to this; Gay people involve themselves in practices that for a very long time a large portion, if not the vast majority of the populace, found repugnant and detriment to society...among other things. Gay people want to feel justified in doing whatever they want to do with the "gay lifestyles" as they would argue the "straight man/woman" already enjoys. They want "equality".

 

The reality of the matter is that it is not equal and it never will be; either for the LGBT populace or for the non-LGBT populace. You are going to have people who don't like gays and you are going to have people who don't like those people not liking gays. You cannot change it. You may censor it and make people's lives a living hell because of it for either side...but no one in this spectrum will ever have true equality. One side, in the end, will always be favored over another. It is a delusion with the contrary.