7155 réponses à ce sujet

[stop_him]

That's why I said I'm happy for it as a choice.   I would not want that to be the only way the romance ends.  I have no doubt that some folks would enjoy that.  Solas' romance could be considered pretty tragic and he's still popular.  I just wouldn't want that choice forced upon a gay/bisexual KISA.  

 

It would be nice for a change to have the chance of a happy ending for a gay couple.  Dorian was a great start, but I think the DA team could do better.  Their track record hasn't been the greatest.    Heck, just look at the NPC list of gay/lesbian romances:

 

Marjorline/Leliana: Abusive relationship, taken up to new heights by the end of the Leliana's Song DLC

Branka/Hespith:  Hespith tainted, feverish, after watching her lover turn her House into darkspawn

Anders/Karl: We remember what happened there.

Wade/Harren: Had to be confirmed as a gay couple.  Not to mention that they largely came off to me as a couple where the love died years ago but YMMV. 

 

Anders/Male Hawke could also count, given what Anders does in the game.  I find the "crazy bisexual" trope a tad old, but that's neither here nor there at the moment.

 

I've noticed that there isn't a lot of gay couples that are alive in Inquisition.  We're usually finding a ring, a body or a letter that we have to take back to the unknowing widow(er).

 

I have no problem with a tragic romance.   I just would not want that to be the only option for a gay/bisexual KISA archetype LI.  That's all.  

I better understand where you are coming from. The dwarf option would not have to be the KISA. Or the gay romances could both be KISAs? Perhaps if it was a race specific option? Like how Alistair could have a happy ending if the hero was a human? A dwarf noble could use his power to exalt / conscript the LotD KISA dwarf out to serve just as honorably in another fashion? I don't know. Just ideas.

 

However, Bioware does have some more positive romances as well.

Both Zevran and Leliana can end happily. 

 

Plus, there are a lot of straightmances that end up badly. However, I would agree that the majority of NPC gaymances do not promote the idea of a happy ending being possible for anyone but the PC hero.

[Grieving Natashina]

I better understand where you are coming from. The dwarf option would not have to be the KISA. Or the gay romances could both be KISAs? Perhaps if it was a race specific option? Like how Alistair could have a happy ending if the hero was a human? A dwarf noble could use his power to exalt / conscript the LotD KISA dwarf out to serve just as honorably in another fashion? I don't know. Just ideas.

 

However, Bioware does have some more positive romances as well.

Both Zevran and Leliana can end happily. 

 

Plus, there are a lot of straightmances that end up badly. However, I would agree that the majority of NPC gaymances do not promote the idea of a happy ending being possible for anyone but the PC hero.

I like the idea, actually!   Er, pretend that I gave you a like.

 

My only concern about the tragedy of gay romances is that their simply isn't nearly as many of them as straight romances.  Having less gay relationships in DA versus straight ones is true to life, but I haven't seen a disproportionate number of gay relationships ending badly over straight ones in my personal experience.  It seems like blind love and dumb decisions are simply universal.  

 

I could probably post with you all day about the horrible straight relationships in DA, starting with Andraste and her husband Maferath.   As a side note, I feel bad for her.  The Judas analogy for Thedas was her husband.  Ouch.

 

The big difference is that the number of gay/lesbian relationships that get mentioned in the lore are usually tragic, oftentimes in a very brutal way.   With so few of them, it seems like the DA team still needs work having relationships not end in death or abuse.  Even Maevaris, the amazing translady from Tevinter (if you can't read the comics, check out her DA wiki entry,) has to get stuck with a dead husband.  One of Varric's cousins, no less.

[daveliam]

Woohoo, another dwarf fan!  Also, I'm betting that daveliam is going to love this post.  He's been wanting a LoD warrior for quite some time now.  

You know me so well, darling!  LoD and/or Rock-Knocker dudes for me!  Hell yes.

 

Well, racially, I would be lying if I said I'm not hoping for another human for the next gay character, but I would be ok with a qunari (as long as he's not part of the Qun) or a moderately dwarfy dwarf (meaning in the vein of Varric rather than Oghren). I'm just hoping he's not an elf. If he's Dalish, I might cry.

 

That's one thing that I think they've done pretty well by us, to be honest.  We've gotten 2 humans, 2 elves, and a qunari, so it's nicely diverse.  I'd prefer a dwarf since.....you know, DWARF!  And I'm not a fan of elves, in general (I like bears, not twinks, personally; not enough hair.....).  So I'd prefer a dwarf KISA myself, but would be totally fine with a human or qunari and, to be honest, okay with an elf too since an elf KISA might be enough to win me over.

 

I wouldn't be happy with a forced tragic ending. There's enough Bury Your Gays out there to begin with and even DA has been pretty bad about it.

 

Agreed.  I don't mind optional tragic endings (like the Kaidan/Ashley romance in ME1 or the Blackwall romance in DA: I), but I'd rather not see a forced tragic ending.  I'm not a fan in general, but especially not since there aren't really a ton of happy, healthy s/s couples in Thedas so I like being to have that show up in my PC relationships at least. 

[Seraphim24]

Well besides nonsense and logical fallacies galore, you also seem to be confused about what sexual orientation is, evidenced by your naive placing of sadomasochists in same category as gay, bi, etc. Obviously you are obstinately refusing to admit you don't want the icky gay in your games, and try to disguise it in what I'm sure is meant as intelligent and educated speech (but sadly fails to live up to your expectation), which is by the way, nothing new, so any attempts at dialogue with you are pointless. At least calling you out on it, though even this feels boringly useless. 

 

Sorry but this is not all clear cut to me, I realize people identify as bisexual, pansexual, there is more than just homosexual. I'm just saying, if you multiply out the consequences it's a lot of stuff is all.

 

Guys, the person some of you are quoting was the same person that spent several pages in a thread asking for skimpier armor for female characters insulting people.  Calling folks puritans and prudes (and other things I'm not getting into here) because other posters felt that the DA setting was not the place for skimpy armor on female characters.  They are only here to derail the thread.  Let's not feed them.  

 

That was rather bizzare in retrospect... but perhaps as much as because people kept responding to those ideas, I was only marginally invested and it's weird, but at the same time I'm not responsible for people finding enough truth in the things I say to actually respond to them. Moreover,  I have no interest in revisiting such a topic.. and I've never had any interest in de-railing this one.

 

For now, I'd like to think people can at least talk freely about bisexuality, pansexuality, homosexuality, demisexuality, heterosexuality, whatever, without getting accusatory and sinking to this kind of mud slinging.  I realize this is a thread purely dedicated to the notion of a gay knight in shining armor, so for that reason ok, no point in pressing on the point. It's just frustrating when it seems like there is no way to come across as trying to make constructive criticism like "if we define all characters by orientation, then.." I realize everyone is always oversensitive and it seems to create the notion that such criticism must be due to animus or some other reason, but it's really just not in my case. I mean what would I have to gain by being here? I don't identify as homosexual but I always liked Bioware games, I was never offended at all when they started introducing homosexual characters or something.

 

I would also think it's appropriate for you to note that any and all criticism I directed was prior to the game's release, where I believed maybe it could help make the game better,  whereas the only thing I've ever done since the game came out was defend Sera (and by extension Bioware, etc) quite vigorously, who, go figure, is a homosexual character. I believed their game design chops were a bit soft compared to the Skyrim/Blizzard machines, but more pointedly they were piling everything into the story and yet I thought there were several soft spots. I hated the idea that they were un-afraid of pursuing certain ideas because they thought they might be too crazy, outrageous outfits were just a tiny piece of that, but it's entirely possible they simply wanted to pursue more normalized paths in general. If you are still convinced after all that I'm somehow just out here to destroy things for no reason I simply do not know what else to say.

 

I feel like forums can be interesting for discussion and back and forth, but if you wish to be persuaded only by me simply going "Yay! I'm for homosexuals having more diverse characters!" then I shall simply do do that and not post anymore. I think it's amazing that people are talking about sex or orientations or whatever and people are getting what they want.. the only reason is to see if everyone gets what they want. If there is no way that people who would want a gay KISA would be satisfied with anything other than a gay KISA then I would say, ok, fine, great. It seems to me though, based on observation, that what fraustrates a lot of bisexual, etc, diverse orientation and what unites them is precisely that they are sick and tired of being judged or regarded solely for their sexual orientation/activity.

[eyezonlyii]

No one is saying a character must be defined by their orientation; as this thread is asking for quite the opposite really. A...sigh...masculine (Andraste guide my speech) man, would subvert the gay character trope for many people out there. It's why I was telling my...err knight, the other day that as much as I LOVE Cortez, I really think James should have been the gay one. Just to throw everybody off. Haha. But anyway. Not only would I want a KISA to be gay, I would also want their (for the ladies too) "personal quest" to not have anything to do with their gayness. Maybe something along the lines of saving an ex subordinate, or better yet, if it is a dwarf (a more appealing prospect as I think about it), then maybe some political positioning in the house of deshers that goes awry and thus a proving is required.

[Grieving Natashina]

Or a LoD member that is curious about possible family connections in Kal-Sharok.  One of the aspects that appeals to me, other than the dwarf connection, is that there is a lot hints in the various codex (codexes?) that indicate the citizens are Tainted.  From everything I've read in the lore, those dwarfs cut off from the rest of their kin turned out a little different.

 

I agree that their personal quest shouldn't focus around their sexuality.  It worked great for Dorian, and I'm thrilled the DA team did it.  They handled it beautifully.  Still, I think I'd rather not have the next gay character have that as their focus for their personal quest.  

 

The dwarf idea sounds like a great one to me.  Of course, I'm one of those oddballs that's really enjoyed all the of the Deep Road areas since Origins.

[Seraphim24]

No one is saying a character must be defined by their orientation; as this thread is asking for quite the opposite really. A...sigh...masculine (Andraste guide my speech) man, would subvert the gay character trope for many people out there. It's why I was telling my...err knight, the other day that as much as I LOVE Cortez, I really think James should have been the gay one. Just to throw everybody off. Haha. But anyway. Not only would I want a KISA to be gay, I would also want their (for the ladies too) "personal quest" to not have anything to do with their gayness. Maybe something along the lines of saving an ex subordinate, or better yet, if it is a dwarf (a more appealing prospect as I think about it), then maybe some political positioning in the house of deshers that goes awry and thus a proving is required.

 

 

It sounds pretty cool and all, the thing is, to be honest, I kind of have been wanting to see a knight in shining armor type of character, period. I play all kinds of games and stuff so I'm not inundated with it. Whether they are labeled as bisexual, pansexual, homosexual, would not really make a difference to me, in the end. A lot of the DA:I characters were kind of this rough and tumble sort of reckless thing, but a proper Paladin fighting off demons and gritting out against some dark lord would be kind of swell I'd think.... not necessarily bland, but a real hero of legend sort of deal.. I even thought about "Can we see more of the "good" characters?" Like the ones that are all holy and just and righteous, it seems like that kind of stuff has fallen away, but if it has real meaning and force behind it I think it could be cool.

[RINNZ]

How'd that gay Walking Dead character come along, if anyone watches It?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It sounds pretty cool and all, the thing is, to be honest, I kind of have been wanting to see a knight in shining armor type of character, period. I play all kinds of games and stuff so I'm not inundated with it. Whether they are labeled as bisexual, pansexual, homosexual, would not really make a difference to me, in the end. A lot of the DA:I characters were kind of this rough and tumble sort of reckless thing, but a proper Paladin fighting off demons and gritting out against some dark lord would be kind of swell I'd think.... not necessarily bland, but a real hero of legend sort of deal.. I even thought about "Can we see more of the "good" characters?" Like the ones that are all holy and just and righteous, it seems like that kind of stuff has fallen away, but if it has real meaning and force behind it I think it could be cool.

One reason Josephine is my favorite character. She is just a genuinely good person. 

[Seraphim24]

One reason Josephine is my favorite character. She is just a genuinely good person. 

 

Alistair was a favorite for similar reasons... just was friendly, fun, etc. DA:2 seem to start a trend of kind of more sort of slick and "gotta be cool" type of characters like I would see in  Blizzard game or something. In fact, I was trying to come up with one myself.

 

I guess maybe that's why I keep coming back here... I just keep thinking a knight in shining armor would be pretty cool, period. If you guys want to make him/her homosexual that's not going to detract from the character any less or more than if they're bisexual or heterosexual from the essence of the character my perspective.

[DirkJake]

To be honest, I did not see how we went from "wanting a gay KISA" to "defining all characters by their orientations." From what I gathered in this thread, I can see a lot of people discussing other attributes that describe a gay KISA in addition to being gay.

 

 

 

 

I agree that their personal quest shouldn't focus around their sexuality.  It worked great for Dorian, and I'm thrilled the DA team did it.  They handled it beautifully.  Still, I think I'd rather not have the next gay character have that as their focus for their personal quest.  

 

The dwarf idea sounds like a great one to me.  Of course, I'm one of those oddballs that's really enjoyed all the of the Deep Road areas since Origins.

 

 

A personal quest focusing around their sexuality is tricky to do it right (which Bioware did). But yes, I would love to see a new perspective on the side quest of a gay KISA!

 

I don't really care much about the race, but I must admit a dwarf gay KISA is a very interesting idea.

 

 

 

 

Agreed.  I don't mind optional tragic endings (like the Kaidan/Ashley romance in ME1 or the Blackwall romance in DA: I), but I'd rather not see a forced tragic ending.  I'm not a fan in general, but especially not since there aren't really a ton of happy, healthy s/s couples in Thedas so I like being to have that show up in my PC relationships at least. 

 

 

 

As much as I love to torture myself with tragic gay love stories, a forced tragic ending in RPG game is not that interesting. What I like is maybe we can choose our own ending, depending on decisions we make in the game. Like we have options to make the romance totally sad, bitter sweet, "status unclear," moderately happy, or filled with rainbow and sunshine. But I doubt Bioware would go such length to create these options for one romance. 

[Battlebloodmage]

Certain characters like Alistair has these options built in like you could be happily ever after with him as a warden or his queen, you could a sad ending with Alistair either you or him sacrifice themselves to save the world, you could have a bittersweet ending where you remain as his mistress. or a crappy ending where he simply dump you. It's entirely possible for them to make the romance like that and it wouldn't require too much effort if it integrated into the storyline.

[Mihura]

 

Alistair was a favorite for similar reasons... just was friendly, fun, etc. DA:2 seem to start a trend of kind of more sort of slick and "gotta be cool" type of characters like I would see in  Blizzard game or something. In fact, I was trying to come up with one myself.

 

I guess maybe that's why I keep coming back here... I just keep thinking a knight in shining armor would be pretty cool, period. If you guys want to make him/her homosexual that's not going to detract from the character any less or more than if they're bisexual or heterosexual from the essence of the character my perspective.

 

True but it is not the same for the people playing the game, I am talking from my personal perceptive of course. 

For example, romancing Sera with my dalish elf ruined my first PT. I was so disappointed with bioware (not even DA2 made me this disappointed believe me) that I had to take some time to actually play my canon PT after that. 
 
So I started to look back and true be told they only seem to have this type of archetypes for straight romances, not even the bi/pan ones have the white knights archetype after so many LIs. 
And no I am not talking about a blond white guy or girl but the type of characters that have a really high moral compass or that are passionate about a cause and serious about that. 

To tell you the true if Josephine was a companion that would kind fit the bill but she is not. I played all bioware games since NwN and Kotor, there is no way they would put a character like Sera in the list for straight romances and we only got good female romances for the femPC because they were bi, (also Sam from ME had a really strange creepy romance vibe like it was not made for me at all).

The only thing I can say is that at least Dorian was a lot better and one of my favorites, it seems to me that a gay man writing it made a big difference.

[HuldraDancer]

sorry was just skimming then stopped as soon as I read KISA dwarf. That would be amazing yes please pretty pretty please? I don't even like playing male characters all that much (for the life of me its a struggle to get them to look anywhere near what I want) but I would roll a male character first in a heartbeat if there was a KISA dwarf

[sandalisthemaker]

sorry was just skimming then stopped as soon as I read KISA dwarf. That would be amazing yes please pretty pretty please? I don't even like playing male characters all that much (for the life of me its a struggle to get them to look anywhere near what I want) but I would roll a male character first in a heartbeat if there was a KISA dwarf

 

I will admit that I had a human in mind when I made this thread, but I have since become a dwarf fan and would be a-okay with a dwarf KISA as well. 

[Zobert]

Since this is still going on, I will say again that it is pretty ill to say that Dorian isn't a GKISA just because he's a mage.  That basically says that brainy people are somehow less cool, awesome, etc.

 

It should be about your character not what you do for a living.  Harumph.

[ThreeF]

Since this is still going on, I will say again that it is pretty ill to say that Dorian isn't a GKISA just because he's a mage.  That basically says that brainy people are somehow less cool, awesome, etc.

 

It should be about your character not what you do for a living.  Harumph.

well...if you think that "mage" for some reason means less cool,  or that being anything but KISA is less cool.... I don't know, you lost me there.

[daveliam]

Since this is still going on, I will say again that it is pretty ill to say that Dorian isn't a GKISA just because he's a mage. That basically says that brainy people are somehow less cool, awesome, etc.

It should be about your character not what you do for a living. Harumph.

Why? Dorian is awesome but, for all of the reasons that were mentioned PLUS his character description in the game files, he's just not a KISA.

Saying we want a KISA is like saying "We've ordered pizza for the last three nights, can we order hoagies instead next time?" That doesn't mean that we think pizza isn't still awesome. It just means we want something else next time, that's all.

[Zobert]

I like the idea, actually!   Er, pretend that I gave you a like.

 

My only concern about the tragedy of gay romances is that their simply isn't nearly as many of them as straight romances.  Having less gay relationships in DA versus straight ones is true to life, but I haven't seen a disproportionate number of gay relationships ending badly over straight ones in my personal experience.  It seems like blind love and dumb decisions are simply universal.  

 

I could probably post with you all day about the horrible straight relationships in DA, starting with Andraste and her husband Maferath.   As a side note, I feel bad for her.  The Judas analogy for Thedas was her husband.  Ouch.

 

The big difference is that the number of gay/lesbian relationships that get mentioned in the lore are usually tragic, oftentimes in a very brutal way.   With so few of them, it seems like the DA team still needs work having relationships not end in death or abuse.  Even Maevaris, the amazing translady from Tevinter (if you can't read the comics, check out her DA wiki entry,) has to get stuck with a dead husband.  One of Varric's cousins, no less.

 

Plus the longest running relationship in all of Thedas is Wade and Herren.  They not only survived the Blight together but they also survived Wade giving anyone who shows up with dragon scales free armor!

[leadintea]

I saw this cute pic of knightly bfs and thought that you guys would like it:

 

 

Artist

[Zobert]

Why? Dorian is awesome but, for all of the reasons that were mentioned PLUS his character description in the game files, he's just not a KISA.

Saying we want a KISA is like saying "We've ordered pizza for the last three nights, can we order hoagies instead next time?" That doesn't mean that we think pizza isn't still awesome. It just means we want something else next time, that's all.

 

You keep saying he's not because he doesn't have a sword.  A knight in Shining Armor is about character.  Superman=no sword and he's Lawful Good.

 

Dorian did NOT have to help anyone outside of Tevinter and does.  Not only that but he is doing it for some greater good that won't even effect him.

 

He is your ride and die dude and because he doesn't carry a sword or have armor (which they don't make right anyway) he's doesn't fit your ideal "knight".

 

Whatevs, dude.

[Zobert]

I saw this cute pic of knightly bfs and thought that you guys would like it:

 

 

Artist

 

Are they lesbians?

[leadintea]

Are they lesbians?

 

Boyfriends, as I said.

[daveliam]

You keep saying he's not because he doesn't have a sword. A knight in Shining Armor is about character. Superman=no sword and he's Lawful Good.

Dorian did NOT have to help anyone outside of Tevinter and does. Not only that but he is doing it for some greater good that won't even effect him.

He is your ride and die dude and because he doesn't carry a sword or have armor (which they don't make right anyway) he's doesn't fit your ideal "knight".

Whatevs, dude.

So is Sera a gay KISA too then? She helps people selflessly too. She does it for the greater good. Why doesn't she count?

[Zobert]

No, because unlike Dorian she is not lawful or neutral good.  She's chaotic good, meaning she's not above doing bad just for fun.

 

Leliana in DA:O would qualify if you want a female character who is also a rogue.  She was very lawful/religious/spiritual/Code-driven good.

 

Knights in Shining Armor are "traditional" goody two shoes truth justice and code driven.

 

Has no one at all played D&D?

 

Dorian for all his flirting, chatting, talking is lawful good.  He wants to change the system rather than make a mockery of it.  He could have married some poor woman and made her miserable, too, but his internal code says that's wrong.

 

Dorian does everything he does for other people.  100% straight up noble-good.  He may speak flirtaciously and funny but his actions are always about caring for others and being true to his belief system.

 

Knight in Shining Armor.