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The gay knight in shining armor


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#2276
berelinde

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You know, I really think BioWare spent too much time and effort on ultimately irrelevant romance content as it is.

 

It's just banter. It really doesn't make that big of a difference.

So much of any game is ultimately irrelevant content, but which part is irrelevant depends on your priorities.

 

I happen to assign banter a very high value, higher than combat, actually. That doesn't mean that I hate combat or that I believe it's unnecessary. It does mean that I get more enjoyment from other elements of the game, like banter and romances.


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#2277
stop_him

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I would not compare Cullen with Josephine, mostly because he and Leliana both have main/quest side mission with Cory second in command. Josephine has a personal quest but so does Cullen, so in a way he got more content outside Skyhold in some PTs. But than again if you feel that Cullen sucks you have a lot of choices, IB, Blackwall, Solas.

I saw or did most of the romances (not blackwall) and Josephine just felt less when compared to Sera. Basically if your PC is a lesbian in the last two games of bioware you either romance two NPCs or two companion. The same cannot be said to all the others, and Sera in my opinion is the worst romance I ever experience in their games, with Dorian being my favorite, along side Isabela.

 

Indeed, Dorian is vastly superior to Sera  <_< , just based on YouTube, haven't got there yet. Lord Shelden Willoughby Trevelyan VIII is still waiting for him.  


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#2278
sandalisthemaker

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As many of us have stated for months off and on, BioWare is going to have gay, bisexual and lesbian characters in their games.  David Gaider moving onto another BioWare project isn't going to change that.  Since we have a chance for the devs to read our ideas (and the devs/writers do lurk on the forums,) this is a great time to toss out some thoughts.

 

 

 

 

I think the big difference is that, even when we disagree, we're still respectful to each other in this thread. There's been a few exceptions here and there of course. Although I do hope that it means that they are listening as well.

 

 

At the very least, Patrick Weekes knows of this thread.   Now that he is the head writer, it reminded me of when I first created this thread. A forumite named Maugrim tweeted Patrick a link to this thread and I believe he favorited it. 

 

I'll try to find Maugrim's post. 


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#2279
sandalisthemaker

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Here it is. 

 

 

Very well put, sandal, this is something I have felt for a very long time but have not always been able to express well and politely.  So I went ahead and tweeted this thread David and Patrick, and the latter at least favorited the tweet.    If you expanded this example to all Bioware games I would almost slide Ashley Williams into your examples but I can see how some may not view her as fully of the archetype.


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#2280
Mihura

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Indeed, Dorian is vastly superior to Sera  <_< , just based on YouTube, haven't got there yet. Lord Shelden Willoughby Trevelyan VIII is still waiting for him.  

 

On the romance arc department, I just cannot agree more. I was so disappointed with Sera at the time and I even romance her with my dalish, which was a total disaster and she end up alone lol 

Either way I really hope next time, if we get problematic characters again at least let the PC call their **** out for a change but I still hope for more KISA in the future.



#2281
AresKeith

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It doesn't flesh out characters in ways that particularly matter.

 

David is that you?


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#2282
daveliam

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David is that you?

 

I think the general consensus is that it's him. 


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#2283
Dark Helmet

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It doesn't flesh out characters in ways that particularly matter.

 

David has returned to us!



#2284
dgcatanisiri

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Cullen is straight.  Despite mods, and despite literally a handful of lines that ended up deep in the game files, he hasn't been changed to bisexual.  A lot of long time regulars of this thread watched the panel that David Gaider did back in 2014 at GaymerX Con.  He was talking about a character that they wanted to make bisexual, but it "didn't fit."  Once someone datamined the dialogue, most folks assume that Cullen was who David, Patrick Weekes and Karen Weekes were talking about.

 

Being bisexual isn't just about allowing both genders to romance the same person.  I'm glad that they decided to make Cullen who he is instead of forcing him to be something else.   For the record, I'm ambivalent when it comes to mods.  It's not going to change BioWare's cannon.   ;)

 

Here's my stance on that 'it doesn't fit the characters' thing - Saying that is deflection. Because they say 'it doesn't fit the character,' but that's based on biases of our world, not actually 'fitting' the character. Because Cassandra's romance? She has romantic notions, wanting to be wooed. We traditionally see that as a narrative for women who are seeking a relationship with men, but that's just because that's what we've always had in the past. I've played her romance, and if my Inquisitor were a woman, only dialogue referring to the Inquisitor's gender would really need to be changed. NOTHING about what happens is less fitting of those romantic notions if the Inquisitor is a woman, it's just not 'the traditional' narrative. Solas, Blackwall, and Cullen fall into traditionally masculine roles in their romances. The thing is THESE AREN'T GENDER-EXCLUSIVE ROLES. There are women who want to DO the wooing. There are men who want to be the emotional support for their lover. These things 'don't fit' the characters because they're using storylines that are traditionally designated 'masculine' and 'feminine' based on the parties involved, but these stories are not actually limited to those gender roles.

 

And the thing with Cullen? His story has MORE MEANING if he's a queer man, if he's bisexual. Addiction is a very real thing for queer people, this is a very common thing in the queer community. His story, if he's bisexual, gets to have an extra level of connection for queer people playing, because this is something that, statisically, they're likely to experience, either themselves or someone close to them. He VERY MUCH fits as a queer man, as a bisexual man. And there's another story in there, of someone whose sexuality has changed as he's gotten older and grown as a person - sexuality is not rigidly set, it's often fluid, falling on a spectrum. Given that he's got an arc about self-acceptance, accepting that he's bisexual is another part of that self-acceptance that really needs to be seen in media, in seeing someone who thought they were one thing and have over time realized that they're not.


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#2285
ThreeF

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^ you kind of saying that we shouldn't project our real world biases, it is wrong and doesn't make sense, but in case of Cullen let's project our real world biases, it makes sense (just stating the obvious).

 

No matter the reasons, the deed is done. You can very well say that Cullen is straight "just because" just as everyone is something "just because".


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#2286
dgcatanisiri

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That's NOT what I mean. I'm saying that 'it doesn't fit the character' is more saying the writers are viewing these characters through a heteronormative bias, it's the thing that this topic was founded on - the characters in question are falling into patterns of presentation that are traditionally in a heterosexual romance, BUT these stories are NOT heterosexual-exclusive. There are women who want to be wooed, and there are women who want to DO the wooing. There are men who have their moments of doubt and draw strength from their lover's faith in them, and there are men who are offering that strength. While the narratives that these types of characters have had before have the characters be heterosexual in the past, they are not restricted to heterosexual romance. But it's believing that they are that contributes to these ideas that somehow THESE traits make a character heterosexual and THOSE traits make a character bi/homosexual.

 

I bring up Cullen because I'm showing just HOW, with absolutely NO change to his story, any idea of him being queer 'doesn't fit the character' is completely blown out of the water, and, in many ways, shows that it would very MUCH fit his character to have been a bisexual option.


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#2287
Steelcan

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OUR GLORIOUS LEADER HAS RETURNED!?!?!


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#2288
Zjarcal

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What banter? The few things they say to each other during the war table? That's not really the same kind of banter.


They say tons of things with some of those random NPCs that stand next to their usual locations (I heard most of em on youtube though, it was hard to get em to play in game consistently).

And the thing with Cullen? His story has MORE MEANING if he's a queer man, if he's bisexual. Addiction is a very real thing for queer people, this is a very common thing in the queer community. His story, if he's bisexual, gets to have an extra level of connection for queer people playing, because this is something that, statisically, they're likely to experience, either themselves or someone close to them. He VERY MUCH fits as a queer man, as a bisexual man.


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#2289
AresKeith

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OUR GLORIOUS LEADER HAS RETURNED!?!?!

 

Too bad he hasn't mentioned heroism yet



#2290
CrimsonN7

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They say tons of things with some of those random NPCs that stand next to their usual locations (I heard most of em on youtube though, it was hard to get em to play in game consistently).


Frank-Underwood-Eye-roll-GIF.gif

 

I really need to get back to watching that show.



#2291
stop_him

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Frank-Underwood-Eye-roll-GIF.gif

Ditto.



#2292
Hellion Rex

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Ah, how I have missed this thread!


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#2293
ThreeF

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They say tons of things with some of those random NPCs that stand next to their usual locations (I heard most of em on youtube though, it was hard to get em to play in game consistently).

I've yet to manage to catch Cullen or Leliana do this, I know it is there, but it doesn't happens for some reason *sighs*



#2294
Hanako Ikezawa

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Too bad he hasn't mentioned heroism yet

Why? What did they say about heroism? 



#2295
AresKeith

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Why? What did they say about heroism? 

 

Just one of David's favorite catch-phrases from the past



#2296
Zobert

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That's NOT what I mean. I'm saying that 'it doesn't fit the character' is more saying the writers are viewing these characters through a heteronormative bias, it's the thing that this topic was founded on - the characters in question are falling into patterns of presentation that are traditionally in a heterosexual romance, BUT these stories are NOT heterosexual-exclusive. There are women who want to be wooed, and there are women who want to DO the wooing. There are men who have their moments of doubt and draw strength from their lover's faith in them, and there are men who are offering that strength. While the narratives that these types of characters have had before have the characters be heterosexual in the past, they are not restricted to heterosexual romance. But it's believing that they are that contributes to these ideas that somehow THESE traits make a character heterosexual and THOSE traits make a character bi/homosexual.

 

I bring up Cullen because I'm showing just HOW, with absolutely NO change to his story, any idea of him being queer 'doesn't fit the character' is completely blown out of the water, and, in many ways, shows that it would very MUCH fit his character to have been a bisexual option.

 

Cullen was a huge dick to mages in Dragon Age Origins, he was kind of a dick in the beginning of DA2, so not seeing how Cullen is a KISA.  Is it because he's a blonde ken doll who carries a sword?  Alastair was the goody-two shoes, tried to be kind to everyone, do the noble/right thing even if it hurts type.  Cullen is more of a mixed bag, as you say, and I also don't know many KISAs with drug issues.  They'd probably be the type to abstain, I'd think.

 

Team Dorian.

 

If Dorian had a sword instead of a mage's staff none of us would be having this conversation.



#2297
Mihura

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Cullen was a huge dick to mages in Dragon Age Origins, he was kind of a dick in the beginning of DA2, so not seeing how Cullen is a KISA.  Is it because he's a blonde ken doll who carries a sword?  Alastair was the goody-two shoes, tried to be kind to everyone, do the noble/right thing even if it hurts type.  Cullen is more of a mixed bag, as you say, and I also don't know many KISAs with drug issues.  They'd probably be the type to abstain, I'd think.

 

Team Dorian.

 

If Dorian had a sword instead of a mage's staff none of us would be having this conversation.

 

You can still have a KISA with a redemption arc, that is Cullen in DA:I. Blackwall is not KISA for example nor Gaspard but they are both chevaliers, why? because they lie to you in game or are power hungry. Cullen wants to change, be a better person, that is what makes him KISA along side with Ser Barris or Cassandra for example. All of them were involved in mistreating the mages but wanted to change the system and are honest about it.

Dorian is more a Tony Stark kind of character and not really Cap. America.



#2298
Zobert

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You can still have a KISA with a redemption arc, that is Cullen in DA:I. Blackwall is not KISA for example nor Gaspard but they are both chevaliers, why? because they lie to you in game or are power hungry. Cullen wants to change, be a better person, that is what makes him KISA along side with Ser Barris or Cassandra for example. All of them were involved in mistreating the mages but want to change the system and are honest about it.

Dorian is more a Tony Stark kind of character and not really Cap. America.

 

OMG, Dorian is totally Captain Tevinter.  Sorry, disagree (respectfully).

 

#TeamDorian#CaptainTevinter.



#2299
Mihura

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OMG, Dorian is totally Captain Tevinter.  Sorry, disagree (respectfully).

 

#TeamDorian#CaptainTevinter.

 

He did travel in time so.... kinda.


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#2300
Hanako Ikezawa

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Just one of David's favorite catch-phrases from the past

Ah, okay.