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[dorktainian]

just destroy the citadel. 

[Orikon]

just destroy the citadel. 

 

Exactly. Destroying the Citadel -> Destroy the AI Core -> Disable the Catalyst -> Disable the Reapers. And since every ending has a "price" attached to it (Destroy disables all AI in the Galaxy,in Control Shepard loses everything he had,Synthesis is brainwashing) the price of the "Citadel" ending would be a lot of people who were still on the Citadel dying.

[God]

That's a largely presumptuous argument based on nothing more than headcanon and wishful thinking.

 

There's no evidence whatsoever that links the destruction of the citadel with the disabling of the Reapers.

 

In and of itself, that's a pretty weak price to pay. I prefer the prices being the same.

 

I'd rather not have my victory cheapened by the ease of getting it.

[Iakus]

That's a largely presumptuous argument based on nothing more than headcanon and wishful thinking.

 

There's no evidence whatsoever that links the destruction of the citadel with the disabling of the Reapers.

 

In and of itself, that's a pretty weak price to pay. I prefer the prices being the same.

 

I'd rather not have my victory cheapened by the ease of getting it.

Destroying the Citadel would mean destroying the hub of the relay network.

 

no relays=crippled interstellar government, trade, etc.  The galaxy goes Wild West as a mini dark age sets in that could last years, decades, even centuries.  Power and alliances shift.  By the time the network gets up and running again (if it ever does)  the face of the galaxy may well be completely rewritten.

 

A steep price.  A leap into uncertainty, but one that doesn't involve Shepard's Special Sauce or green space magic.

 

Yeah, a worthwhile price.  A sign that we are no longer dependant on the Reapers' technology to set our path.

 

As for the CItadel stopping the Reapers, well the Catalyst is the controlling intelligence behind them.  No Catalyst, no guiding intelligence No instructions, no purpose, just broken machines.

[Orikon]

That's a largely presumptuous argument based on nothing more than headcanon and wishful thinking.

 

There's no evidence whatsoever that links the destruction of the citadel with the disabling of the Reapers.

 

In and of itself, that's a pretty weak price to pay. I prefer the prices being the same.

 

I'd rather not have my victory cheapened by the ease of getting it.

The Catalyst clearly says that the he gives Reapers a purpose,and that the only reason the Reapers are still...reaping,is because he still hasn't found the solution.

In the Control ending,the moment Shepard replaces the Catalyst all Reapers immediately stop all attacks and leave Earth alone. But Shepard gains control over the Reapers only when the Crucible's wave comes in contact with them.

The same thing is in the Destroy. The wave the Crucible unleashes disables all AI,including the Catalyst. But as far as we know,the Reapers are NOT artificial intelligence like EDI is,so there shouldn't be any reason for them to shut down. In reality,one would really need to know what exactly the Crucible does,and why is disables all the AI or why it takes direct contact for the Reapers to fall under Shepard's control.

 

/heavy speculation incoming

It could be that the energy wave the Crucible produces carries the "destruction" code or an "overwrite" (in Control's case) code that overwrites the Reapers "purpose" (which was provided by the Catalyst) thus either:

a ) destroying them

or

b ) putting them under Shepard's control.

 

But,if the Catalyst's destruction or replacement (in Control's case) is what causes the energy wave (since the Crucible is "merely a power source") maybe the reason all AI is disabled is because that's how the Crucible was designed. So if we manage to destroy the Catalyst independently of the Crucible by destroying the AI core of the Citadel then yes,the Reapers would be disabled.

 

Its all just theories,but honestly a scenario in which the fleets try,and fail,to disable the Catalyst in this way would make for a much better Refusal ending then the "everybody died off-screen" ending we got.

[themikefest]

Severing the signal from the Catalyst to the reapers by destroying the Citadel may or may not stop them from doing their thing

 

In Leviathan. Once that orb was destroyed, Leviathan has no control over those folks anymore and they go back to believing its 2176

[God]

Again, for both of you, completely suppositional argument that has no basis in the lore.

 

As for iakus, I'd prefer if it involved the special sauce, genocide, or slavery. I'd rather kill off a race than deal with the chaos (and even greater implied loss of life) of the relays destruction and breakdown of society. Your entire scenario basically calls for the deaths of the Turians and the Quarians. While I'm more than willing to throw them under the bus if the mission calls for it, it doesn't, and as such, the casualties are senseless. Plus, you're leaving trillions of people to face certain death by famine. And civil war. And general chaos. 

 

I'd rather synthesize than let the galaxy fall into that state.

 

As well, no where is it ever mentioned what would become of the Reapers if the Catalyst and Citadel was destroyed. 

 

As far as we know, it would do absolutely nothing. The Reapers still have their mandate, and they would fulfill their mission regardless of the existence of the Catalyst.

 

An active guided missile doesn't stray from its target just because the launching platform is destroyed.

 

The Reapers are destroyed/controlled due to the Crucible, not the Catalyst.

[Orikon]

Again, for both of you, completely suppositional argument that has no basis in the lore.

 

The Reapers are destroyed/controlled due to the Crucible, not the Catalyst.

 

Its based on what we see in the ending,which the last time I checked,was a part of the lore.

 

Then why does the Crucible target every synthetic in Destroy's case and only the Reapers in Control's case? The Catalyst doesn't control every synthetic,only the Reapers. We're never given any explanation whatsoever as to why that happens. Either the engineers working on the Crucible are total idiots,or there's some serious inconsistent writing (probably the second,though...)

If the destruction or replacement of the Catalyst causes the energy wave,which is then dispersed throughout the galaxy by the Crucible,it would cover the question.

[God]

Its based on what we see in the ending,which the last time I checked,was a part of the lore.

 

Then why does the Crucible target every synthetic in Destroy's case and only the Reapers in Control's case? The Catalyst doesn't control every synthetic,only the Reapers. We're never given any explanation whatsoever as to why that happens. Either the engineers working on the Crucible are total idiots,or there's some serious inconsistent writing (probably the second,though...)

If the destruction or replacement of the Catalyst causes the energy wave,which is then dispersed throughout the galaxy by the Crucible,it would cover the question.

 

Because you're harnessing two different functions of the Citadel when the Crucible is attached to it. When you destroy, you're causing an energetic chain reaction which heavily damages technological systems, whereas in Control, you're interfacing with the Crucible and Catalyst and directly changing its perimeters in the programming. Since the Geth aren't based on Reaper technology, they're not affected by this. 

 

Otherwise, the rest of your statement is an appeal to ignorance, thus confirming that your idea is a theory, not a truth. I'll say the same for mine, though I will say that Destroy and Control both have totally different functions and purposes, hence their difference.

[Orikon]

Because you're harnessing two different functions of the Citadel when the Crucible is attached to it. When you destroy, you're causing an energetic chain reaction which heavily damages technological systems, whereas in Control, you're interfacing with the Crucible and Catalyst and directly changing its perimeters in the programming. Since the Geth aren't based on Reaper technology, they're not affected by this. 

 

EDI is based on Reaper technology,yet she wasn't affected in Control as well (I assume that since the Catalyst never controlled her in the first place,Shepard had nothing to do with her in Control either,no matter the technology she uses).

 

"EDI also gains access to "Anti-Reaper Algorithms" and states that she devotes significant processing power to analyzing them. When pressed on this subject by Shepard as to how she could hope to combat beings millions of years more advanced, she reveals that she was in part designed by technology gained from Sovereign's remains and thus, at least partially, based on Reaper technology herself."

 

But I admit,you do have a point.

[God]

EDI is a Cerberus construct, partially built with Reaper technology, but not inherently Reaper in design herself. She doesn't have the same parameters or hardware as them. She doesn't have the same thought process, nor would she be influenced by their command signal. 

[Iakus]

Again, for both of you, completely suppositional argument that has no basis in the lore.

 

As for iakus, I'd prefer if it involved the special sauce, genocide, or slavery. I'd rather kill off a race than deal with the chaos (and even greater implied loss of life) of the relays destruction and breakdown of society. Your entire scenario basically calls for the deaths of the Turians and the Quarians. While I'm more than willing to throw them under the bus if the mission calls for it, it doesn't, and as such, the casualties are senseless. Plus, you're leaving trillions of people to face certain death by famine. And civil war. And general chaos. 

 

I'd rather synthesize than let the galaxy fall into that state.

 

As well, no where is it ever mentioned what would become of the Reapers if the Catalyst and Citadel was destroyed. 

 

As far as we know, it would do absolutely nothing. The Reapers still have their mandate, and they would fulfill their mission regardless of the existence of the Catalyst.

 

An active guided missile doesn't stray from its target just because the launching platform is destroyed.

 

The Reapers are destroyed/controlled due to the Crucible, not the Catalyst.

The chaos of a nonfunctioning relay system makes more thematic sense than the arbitrary extermination of a species.  And while such a scenario may leave the turian and quarian fleets (less so the quarians, as they have their liveships) survival in some doubt, it doesn't guarantee anything.

 

But yes, I'd be willing to risk famine and civil war as a consequence of defeating the Reapers.  It's a foreseeable consequence of a large-scale war.  And opens up numerous possibilities for sequels.

 

And the revelation of the Catalyst's existence has, to me, relegated the Reapers to nothing more than Really Really Big Husks.  I have serious doubts that they are sentient at all.  Destroy their "collective intelligence" and they have no purpose.  You crash the system.  Makes as much sense as the Red, Green, and Blue waves.  And a hell of a lot more than the Green one

[God]

The chaos of a nonfunctioning relay system makes more thematic sense than the arbitrary extermination of a species.  And while such a scenario may leave the turian and quarian fleets (less so the quarians, as they have their liveships) survival in some doubt, it doesn't guarantee anything.

 

But yes, I'd be willing to risk famine and civil war as a consequence of defeating the Reapers.  It's a foreseeable consequence of a large-scale war.  And opens up numerous possibilities for sequels.

 

And the revelation of the Catalyst's existence has, to me, relegated the Reapers to nothing more than Really Really Big Husks.  I have serious doubts that they are sentient at all.  Destroy their "collective intelligence" and they have no purpose.  You crash the system.  Makes as much sense as the Red, Green, and Blue waves.  And a hell of a lot more than the Green one

 

I disagree completely. Technically speaking, the thematic sense of extermination of a species comes to rise because it makes technical sense in Destroy.

 

While it might not be thematically foreshadowed, the technical background justification thus justifies the narrative justification, even if it seems random. And I can say your guarantee doesn't equate to anything either.

 

Again, it's wishful thinking on your part. I think you're interpreting the Catalyst into something more than it is. You're trying to call it as some kind of entity which 'totally' controls every Reapers every action. It's more designed to act as centralized core of their intelligence than just as the ultra server. I'm pretty sure the Reapers are sentient. I know they are. The game tells us that they are. Which is why it makes no sense that destroying the Citadel or Catalyst would do anything more than waste a lot of heavy munitions on your part. Which only makes the Reapers job that much easier.

 

As well, I'll indulge your thought for a moment; What's to stop the Catalyst from disseminating its personality matrix into each Reaper? Why would it have to be bound to the Citadel? It has a massive number of Reapers to attach itself too. You're trying to justify any action to beat them conventionally now.

[TMA LIVE]

Before ME3 came out, my idea was the big choices would be similar to the "Sacrifice the Council" or "Sacrifice apart of fleet to save them". Either way, there's a sacrifice which can represent who you support more, Human Dominance or Galactic balance. So the choice would be "Save Earth", and every other homeworld is burned, destroyed or damaged. Or "Sacrifice Earth", and the other races are and their homeworld are better off.

[Valmar]

 

Again, it's wishful thinking on your part. I think you're interpreting the Catalyst into something more than it is. You're trying to call it as some kind of entity which 'totally' controls every Reapers every action. It's more designed to act as centralized core of their intelligence than just as the ultra server. I'm pretty sure the Reapers are sentient. I know they are. The game tells us that they are. Which is why it makes no sense that destroying the Citadel or Catalyst would do anything more than waste a lot of heavy munitions on your part. Which only makes the Reapers job that much easier.

 

 

I agree that the reaper's are sentient. Indeed the very story takes strives to push this point across to us. That they're not 'just machines'. This is what makes the catalyst such a contradiction. It controls them, they are just tools that do what they're told. Indeed even Shepard, should you choose control, can control the reapers. The catalyst essentially ignores all the lore up till this point by turning the reapers into just tools. If you base it off of 99% of the lore in the game, destroying the Citadel or the Catalyst should not have any effect on the reapers. The 1% you have to ignore is the catalyst itself which contradicts all of that. Even the control ending goes against the lore, really.

 

If we accept the situation the catalyst creates in the story then destroying it and/or the Citadel /should/ kill the reapers. It embodies the collective consciousnesses of all reapers. It controls them. The Citadel is its home, it is a /part/ of it. Yes, all this is contradictory to everything else we know about the reapers, but that's a problem with the catalyst in the first place.

 

It isn't us who say the catalyst controls the reapers and that they're just tools to it's will. It's the catalyst that said it.

 

"I control the reapers. They are my solution."

"I gave them function"

"When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict? Or is it simply doing what it was created to do?"

 

Plus, again, there's the whole matter of Shepard potentially replacing the catalyst and taking control of the reapers, making them follow his/her rule.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I agree that the reaper's are sentient. Indeed the very story takes strives to push this point across to us. That they're not 'just machines'. This is what makes the catalyst such a contradiction. It controls them, they are just tools that do what they're told. Indeed even Shepard, should you choose control, can control the reapers. The catalyst essentially ignores all the lore up till this point by turning the reapers into just tools. If you base it off of 99% of the lore in the game, destroying the Citadel or the Catalyst should not have any effect on the reapers. The 1% you have to ignore is the catalyst itself which contradicts all of that. Even the control ending goes against the lore, really.

 

If we accept at the situation the catalyst creates in the story then destroying it and/or the Citadel /should/ kill the reapers. It embodies the collective consciousnesses of all reapers. It controls them. The Citadel is its home, it is a /part/ of it. Yes, all this is contradictory to everything else we know about the reapers, but that's a problem with the catalyst in the first place.

 

It isn't us who say the catalyst controls the reapers and that they're just tools to it's will. It's the catalyst that said it.

 

"I control the reapers. They are my solution."

"I gave them function"

"When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict? Or is it simply doing what it was created to do?"

 

Plus, again, there's the whole matter of Shepard potentially replacing the catalyst and taking control of the reapers, making them follow his/her rule.

 

I think you can have a coherent explanation if you explain away the Reapers being VI like programs that have personalities 'flavored' by the species they're based on (like the Prothean VIs and the actual Prothean scientists they were based on).

[Alamar2078]

Question:  Does the lore go into specifics of the Reaper's consciousness so to speak?

 

If I recall correctly one of the purposes of the Reapers was to "preserve" the harvested species.  Does this preservation of memories, experiences, etc. involve some type of gestalt consciousness?  If so does the Catalyst "slave" the consciousness ; is the consciousness shacked like an AI ; is the a VI OS for the Reapers and the preserved species are just a totally separate entity [so to speak]??

 

Or am I totally wrong about it all [I've been out of the loop for a while so my lore is RUSTY]

[Valmar]

I think you can have a coherent explanation if you explain away the Reapers being VI like programs that have personalities 'flavored' by the species they're based on (like the Prothean VIs and the actual Prothean scientists they were based on).

 

While I wouldn't be satisfied with that conclusion it could work. Problem is the current ending, the catalyst as it stands, offers no such cop-out.

 

 

Question:  Does the lore go into specifics of the Reaper's consciousness so to speak?

 

If I recall correctly one of the purposes of the Reapers was to "preserve" the harvested species.  Does this preservation of memories, experiences, etc. involve some type of gestalt consciousness?  If so does the Catalyst "slave" the consciousness ; is the consciousness shacked like an AI ; is the a VI OS for the Reapers and the preserved species are just a totally separate entity [so to speak]??

 

Or am I totally wrong about it all [I've been out of the loop for a while so my lore is RUSTY]

 

Yes, it DOES involve gestalt consciousness.

 

"This paste will then be used in the construction of a newborn Reaper, with the victims' minds being preserved to form the Reaper's gestalt consciousness."

"Shepard soon after discovers the Catalyst, an artificial intelligence which embodies the Reapers' collective consciousnesses and memories,"

 

There's also the conversation you have with Legion in regards to the 'human reaper' in ME2:

 

Some interesting deleted dialogue found in ME2:

"Dialogue was removed from Mass Effect 2 that details the Reaper harvesting process. EDI states that the captive humans were being reduced to their basic components by being dissected down to the atomic level. The data from the process could then be uploaded into a Reaper's neural network, thus storing the knowledge and essence of the individual that was liquefied in the process. Harbinger indicates that being turned into a Reaper is a form of rebirth. In reference to the fight with the Human-Reaper, Harbinger also states that Shepard is the one "wasting lives.""

[Iakus]

And of course all those minds are totally okay with being turned into a Reaper gestalt conciousness and continuing their agenda...

[themikefest]

How do reapers preserve someone's mind if that individual has been vaporized by the reaper beam?

[emark.mark20]

How about a tweak to the rush to the beam part of the ending? Add in some enemies to fight, some wreckage placed around for cover, and at the same time, avoid the harbingers beam . Also, have the harbinger talk during this scene. The background music will also have the suicide mission track as well. Then play the events of the extended cut.

Alternatively, just have us face against the harbinger itself though that may be repeating the one fought at rannoch.

[Valmar]

And of course all those minds are totally okay with being turned into a Reaper gestalt conciousness and continuing their agenda...

 

Actually I've always felt that would had been a very interesting approach to take with the reapers. As relatively ignorant, limited organics we cannot understand. After being turned into a reaper we are given understanding, transcendence. We gain a perspective that, before, was lost to us due to our own limitations. If each reaper is a nation, each has free will and consciousness yet they all continue their overall objective... It'd an interesting situation.

 

What if the reason the cycle has never ended is because no species, ever, after transcending flesh, came to a different conclusion. Once when they are risen to the state of practical godhood with a near boundless perspective and understand do they see why it was necessary and how it is the best thing for the galaxy. It's a lot like the control ending. Shepard transcends. "Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words. But now only do I truly understand."

 

The only thing it would take for the cycle to end is for a species to be uplifted, conjoined, yet still feel like it was the 'wrong' thing to do. That would had been pretty deep stuff, imo. It is also where I was really hoping the Leviathan dlc would take us, given the rumors at the time was that it would be a reaper that defected from the majority. Heretic vs Geth type situation. 

 

We /think/ we have a grasp on the situation. We /think/ we know whats right and whats wrong. What if the reapers ARE right and they're just so far beyond us that we cannot hope to understand it from our limited perspective? It's more interesting then just painting it black-and-white, good-and-evil, imo.

[Iakus]

Actually I've always felt that would had been a very interesting approach to take with the reapers. As relatively ignorant, limited organics we cannot understand. After being turned into a reaper we are given understanding, transcendence. We gain a perspective that, before, was lost to us due to our own limitations. If each reaper is a nation, each has free will and consciousness yet they all continue their overall objective... It'd an interesting situation.

 

What if the reason the cycle has never ended is because no species, ever, after transcending flesh, came to a different conclusion. Once when they are risen to the state of practical godhood with a near boundless perspective and understand do they see why it was necessary and how it is the best thing for the galaxy. It's a lot like the control ending. Shepard transcends. "Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words. But now only do I truly understand."

 

The only thing it would take for the cycle to end is for a species to be uplifted, conjoined, yet still feel like it was the 'wrong' thing to do. That would had been pretty deep stuff, imo. It is also where I was really hoping the Leviathan dlc would take us, given the rumors at the time was that it would be a reaper that defected from the majority. Heretic vs Geth type situation. 

 

We /think/ we have a grasp on the situation. We /think/ we know whats right and whats wrong. What if the reapers ARE right and they're just so far beyond us that we cannot hope to understand it from our limited perspective? It's more interesting then just painting it black-and-white, good-and-evil, imo.

Might have been interesting.  Heck that might have been used in teh "Dark Energy" ending concept, if it had ever gotten past the initial concept stage.

 

But that didn't happen.  What we got made the Reapers appear to be, at best, heavilly indoctrinated cyborgs.  And at worst, city-sized husks.

[Valmar]

Might have been interesting.  Heck that might have been used in teh "Dark Energy" ending concept, if it had ever gotten past the initial concept stage.

 

But that didn't happen.  What we got made the Reapers appear to be, at best, heavilly indoctrinated cyborgs.  And at worst, city-sized husks.

 

Yes, I know it didn't happen. It is why I used phrases like "would had been" and "what if". I'm well aware of the the ending. In fact I even made that argument earlier in this topic, illustrating how the ending turned the reapers into something they weren't previously. Which you know, of course, since you liked that post.

 

Though back on the case of the reapers being aware, free and having consciousness. Personally, I prefer to refer to the 99% of the lore that favors the reapers being as such. The 1% I have to ignore is the catalyst which is easy enough given how much of the lore it contradicts anyway. Honestly, if I wasn't able to overlook the catalyst I may as well never play the first game again since it's existence contradicted the entire plot of the first game. So, even though the catalyst contradicts it, I still view the reapers as what they've been established as in ME2 and the majority of ME3 up until the ending. Which involves them being sentient, aware, independent. Not just mindless tools that obey master.  The 99% takes precedence over of the 1%.

 

If I was to just accept the catalyst and ignore the rest of the lore then the ending wouldn't even be that bad or be a plothole. Afterall it's only a plothole because it goes against the rest of the lore up until that point - something that wouldn't matter at all if I was willing to throw out the 'old lore' and accept whats now presented towards us in the final five minutes.  I won't accept the reapers as being just mindless tools that obey their master. I won't because it goes against the majority of the lore. That is the story the catalyst tells us, yes, but so what. **** the catalyst, it's a plothole and a mess anyway. I'm not going to flush everything else down the drain just because it doesn't adhere to Bioware's rushed plothole device.

 

That's just my view on it, though. IMO viewing the reapers as just mindless machines gives too much credibility to the catalyst.

[Pasquale1234]

Actually I've always felt that would had been a very interesting approach to take with the reapers. As relatively ignorant, limited organics we cannot understand. After being turned into a reaper we are given understanding, transcendence. We gain a perspective that, before, was lost to us due to our own limitations. If each reaper is a nation, each has free will and consciousness yet they all continue their overall objective... It'd an interesting situation.
 
What if the reason the cycle has never ended is because no species, ever, after transcending flesh, came to a different conclusion. Once when they are risen to the state of practical godhood with a near boundless perspective and understand do they see why it was necessary and how it is the best thing for the galaxy. It's a lot like the control ending. Shepard transcends. "Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words. But now only do I truly understand."

That sounds like some religious / spiritual beliefs, expectations, practices... that some sort of ascension / transcendence, beyond our current understanding is achieved after the physical body dies. The primary difference being that organics are harvested before their natural lifespans have completed, and processed into reapers.
 

The only thing it would take for the cycle to end is for a species to be uplifted, conjoined, yet still feel like it was the 'wrong' thing to do. That would had been pretty deep stuff, imo. It is also where I was really hoping the Leviathan dlc would take us, given the rumors at the time was that it would be a reaper that defected from the majority. Heretic vs Geth type situation.

How would that end the cycle?

Given the reaper's penchant for indoctrination, how could any of them go rogue?
 

We /think/ we have a grasp on the situation. We /think/ we know whats right and whats wrong. What if the reapers ARE right and they're just so far beyond us that we cannot hope to understand it from our limited perspective? It's more interesting then just painting it black-and-white, good-and-evil, imo.

I'm trying to see the reapers as a positive influence, but haven't been able to get there. Here are a few of the reasons:

- Reapers harvest life to preserve it - but to what end? What is the benefit of having all of these life forms preserved in reaper form? How is it better than leaving them in their original form?

- Who gets to decide right / wrong? Do they really have the right to make these choices for all species for all time?

- Is technology the only measure of the growth, evolution, value of a species?

- Sovereign states that they leave technology for evolving organic species to discover, to influence them to evolve along certain paths. Beyond that, they ensure that any knowledge of their existence or the wealth of species' knowledge they've preserved is never revealed to new species that may evolve. They pretty much do everything they can to ensure the continuation of their cycles.

The reapers come across as massively arrogant - which, unfortunately, often goes hand in hand with massively ignorant. They're not willing to consider that their logic, assumptions, conclusions might be wrong... at least not until Shepard comes along... at which time they finally recognize that a new solution is needed.