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[Valmar]

That sounds like some religious / spiritual beliefs, expectations, practices... that some sort of ascension / transcendence, beyond our current understanding is achieved after the physical body dies. The primary difference being that organics are harvested before their natural lifespans have completed, and processed into reapers.

 

 

For whatever it matters, I'm an atheist. (Though I did just talk to God. Whoa.)

 

It isn't so much the 'beyond our bodies' aspect of it that matters. Its having our individual consciousnesses conjoined with a billion others. To be immortal and essentially beyond time.  I imagine the 'virtual aliens' would have a fairly interesting view on the whole reaper-harvest thing.

 

Think of it like the geth. They're actually a pretty good example of this. As an individual, singular program the geth are, with all respect, insignificant. Even as a single platform they only have the intelligence of a varren and a single platform has multiple programs. As a single program they are nothing. Yet when they conjoin together, when they share their intelligence and perspective, they gain complexity. They become what one could arguably refer to as 'alive'.

 

In our current form, as an individual with countless limitations placed on us, we may very well be akin to those single geth programs when viewed in relation to what we become after the harvest. If you had the collective knowledge, experience and intelligence of the human race suddenly implanted in your brain do you really think you'd view everything the same way? That it wouldn't change you in someway? That you wouldn't have a new perspective on things? That's essentially what the reapers are - an accumulation of all of your species' experience and knowledge.

 

 

How would that end the cycle?

Given the reaper's penchant for indoctrination, how could any of them go rogue?

 

The idea is that the reason the cycle hasn't ended is because no harvested species has ever disagreed with the necessity of it after-the-fact. If a species was harvested and even after being made to ascend they STILL feel that the harvest was/is wrong and disagrees with it, then they (the reapers) will have to accept that their solution isn't perfect and something has to be changed. Until now no species has ever came to a different conclusion

 

You're assuming reapers have the ability to indoctrinate themselves. Indoctrination requires an organic body. There is also no way to know if indoctrination can work on a mind as complex as a reaper which is essentially a billion organic minds linked together. That's a far step away from indoctrinating little ol' us. They weren't even able to 'indoctrinate' (it's different for synthetics, understandably) Legion, whom is no where near the same level of complexity that is a reaper. Nor the rachni queen, nor the thorian. Indoctrination doesn't work on everything.

 

Each reaper is free and independent. If they can all be controlled by reaper indoctrination then that would contradict the whole free and independent bit.

 

 

 

I'm trying to see the reapers as a positive influence, but haven't been able to get there. Here are a few of the reasons:

- Reapers harvest life to preserve it - but to what end? What is the benefit of having all of these life forms preserved in reaper form? How is it better than leaving them in their original form?

- Who gets to decide right / wrong? Do they really have the right to make these choices for all species for all time?

- Is technology the only measure of the growth, evolution, value of a species?

- Sovereign states that they leave technology for evolving organic species to discover, to influence them to evolve along certain paths. Beyond that, they ensure that any knowledge of their existence or the wealth of species' knowledge they've preserved is never revealed to new species that may evolve. They pretty much do everything they can to ensure the continuation of their cycles.

The reapers come across as massively arrogant - which, unfortunately, often goes hand in hand with massively ignorant. They're not willing to consider that their logic, assumptions, conclusions might be wrong... at least not until Shepard comes along... at which time they finally recognize that a new solution is needed.

 

 

- In reaper form they are immortal, beyond the limitations of time. They are eternal. Is that better than dying out in a few years?

 

"Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us you are nothing."

 

- Hence why a single reaper coming to a different conclusion is what would be enough to stop the harvest. Each reaper IS the entire species. Each one has agreed that the harvest is 'right'.

 

- It's still a reasonable factor to consider. Compare modern man today with that of the caveman working over a fire. Which one would you consider the the pinnacle comparatively speaking?

 

- Yes. So? Of course they want to ensure the continuation of the cycle - did I imply otherwise?

 

Yes, they can seem pretty arrogant... though arguably one could say its justified. Though the same argument can be said of us. We're so quick to criticize them and say that they're wrong, we're right. Is it not equally arrogant for us limited mortals to assume we know better than beings as complex and advanced as the reapers? They've been around for billions of years yet we scoff at their perspective as if ours is somehow more valid. We're all pretty damn arrogant. 

[Pasquale1234]

For whatever it matters, I'm an atheist. (Though I did just talk to God. Whoa.)
 
It isn't so much the 'beyond our bodies' aspect of it that matters. Its having our individual consciousnesses conjoined with a billion others. To be immortal and essentially beyond time.
<snip>
In our current form, as an individual with countless limitations placed on us, we may very well be akin to those single geth programs when viewed in relation to what we become after the harvest. If you had the collective knowledge, experience and intelligence of the human race suddenly implanted in your brain do you really think you'd view everything the same way? That it wouldn't change you in someway? That you wouldn't have a new perspective on things? That's essentially what the reapers are - an accumulation of all of your species' experience and knowledge.

Like I said, some religious / spiritual systems include all of that - and more. Reapers not required.
 

The idea is that the reason the cycle hasn't ended is because no harvested species has ever disagreed with the necessity of it after-the-fact. If a species was harvested and even after being made to ascend they STILL feel that the harvest was/is wrong and disagrees with it, then they (the reapers) will have to accept that their solution isn't perfect and something has to be changed. Until now no species has ever came to a different conclusion.

Are we assuming this because Shepard showing up convinced the Catalyst that a different solution was needed?

Regardless, since the reapers came into existence, no species has ever been allowed to evolve beyond a certain point.
 

Think of it like the geth. They're actually a pretty good example of this. As an individual, singular program the geth are, with all respect, insignificant. Even as a single platform they only have the intelligence of a varren and a single platform has multiple programs. As a single program they are nothing. Yet when they conjoin together, when they share their intelligence and perspective, they gain complexity. They become what one could arguably refer to as 'alive'.

Legion refers to itself as "we", and can provide a vote tally when the various programs don't agree.

 

Each reaper is free and independent. If they can all be controlled by reaper indoctrination then that would contradict the whole free and independent bit.

The Control ending also contradicts the whole free and independent bit.
 

Yes, they can seem pretty arrogant... though arguably one could say its justified. Though the same argument can be said of us. We're so quick to criticize them and say that they're wrong, we're right. Is it not equally arrogant for us limited mortals to assume we know better than beings as complex and advanced as the reapers? They've been around for billions of years yet we scoff at their perspective as if ours is somehow more valid. We're all pretty damn arrogant.

... and they've been repeating exactly the same cycles for billions of years, believing that it was the best, right "solution" to a problem they defined. By some miraculous fluke, Shepard was able to show up in the right place at the right time, and it was only then that they realized a different solution was needed. Over all that time, how many others came close, but didn't quite make it in time?

There is a world of difference between striving for self-determination versus an arrogance that insists it has the right to dictate the fate of every species that dares to crawl out of the primordial soup.

[CaIIisto]

Rocks fall, everyone dies

Fin/

[Alamar2078]

@Valmar:  I may have missed it but is there something in lore indicating that the collective intelligence that composes a Reaper isn't shackled in some form or another or that it's in the least bit of control??  Is what runs a Reaper a "VI" that happens to have nigh infinite computing power but still inhibits the true collective [like a subconscious] and this is the basis for the whole "we are a nation" thing????

 

The reason I ask is that unless the collective consciousness is built to certain specifications [shacked, has a personality or directives laid on top of it, etc.] that there is no more reason to assume that they would not want to buy the Reaper solution than to oppose it or have vast differences of opinion about how to do things.

 

As an aside:  I wonder if borrowing an idea from Marvel Comics and have as an explanation of "Reaper incompetence" be the fact that their subconscious [the collective consciousness that serves as the base of the Reaper consciousness] was rebelling and guiding them into poor decisions or leaving openings where they could in turn be defeated???  Heck they could even explain the ME1 psychic shock along similar lines -- the "VI" controlling Saren got scrambled and instead of the Reaper's automatic defenses kicking in while it was rebooting the collective just shut the Reaper down and left it open for destruction.

 

A "dumb" theory / way to go but the more I think about it the more I like it.

[Valmar]

Are we assuming this because Shepard showing up convinced the Catalyst that a different solution was needed?

Regardless, since the reapers came into existence, no species has ever been allowed to evolve beyond a certain point.
 

 

No, in this scenario the catalyst doesn't exist.

 

From the reaper's perspective, they DO evolve. The reapers are the pinnacle of evolution, by harvesting the species they are allowing them to evolve to the apex of evolution, at least in their eyes. So it isn't so much that they stop evolution, rather they advance it. From their perspective.

 

 

Legion refers to itself as "we", and can provide a vote tally when the various programs don't agree.
 

 

True. I fail to see the relevance of this, though. Did I suggest otherwise?

 

The Control ending also contradicts the whole free and independent bit.

 

The ending, in general, contradicts a lot of the lore. Point? This isn't a proposal for how the reapers really are, only how they could had been. Of course the ending contradicts it. The ending doesn't really have much foundation in the lore in the first place nor does it care what it contradicts within its own story. Given that, I really don't care if my hypothetical doesn't work with the ending - the real story doesn't work with the ending either. The ending is a special star, in its own little plothole world. If it doesn't care to adhere to the rules placed by its own story why should I care if it works with mine?

 

 

... and they've been repeating exactly the same cycles for billions of years, believing that it was the best, right "solution" to a problem they defined. By some miraculous fluke, Shepard was able to show up in the right place at the right time, and it was only then that they realized a different solution was needed. Over all that time, how many others came close, but didn't quite make it in time?

 

Irrelevant to my hypothetical. I think you're misunderstanding the entire premise of my earlier post. What Shepard does in the events of the ending has no correlation with my hypothetical, nor does the ending at all. Honestly, in context of that, my hypothetical seems to fit very well within this topic which is "how would you end Mass Effect 3".

 

 

There is a world of difference between striving for self-determination versus an arrogance that insists it has the right to dictate the fate of every species that dares to crawl out of the primordial soup.

 

I think you're missing the point. The reapers are every species. Prior to being harvested and transcending they didn't want it. Afterwards they did. It's sorta like Green Eggs and Ham. You're forced into something you don't want initially but after you have it you realize how good it is and how it was silly to resist it in the first place. Each reaper represents a harvested species. No species, after being harvested, has ever come to another conclusion other than  "this is awesome, thanks! We had no idea what we were missing out on!" Is it arrogance to then insist that its whats best, when billions of years worth of species have always consistently and continuously agreed that it was for the best?

 

It would be more arrogant, imo, to assume that our cycle would be different. That for some reason we would come to a different conclusion when billions of years worth of species before us have never rejected their ascended forms after the fact.

 

 

@Valmar:  I may have missed it but is there something in lore indicating that the collective intelligence that composes a Reaper isn't shackled in some form or another or that it's in the least bit of control??  Is what runs a Reaper a "VI" that happens to have nigh infinite computing power but still inhibits the true collective [like a subconscious] and this is the basis for the whole "we are a nation" thing????

 

The reason I ask is that unless the collective consciousness is built to certain specifications [shacked, has a personality or directives laid on top of it, etc.] that there is no more reason to assume that they would not want to buy the Reaper solution than to oppose it or have vast differences of opinion about how to do things.

 

I don't believe there is anything quite that specific. I'm going off of their "we are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness" line and what Legion tells us. Everything, prior to the ending of course, pointed towards this, imo.

 

 

 

As an aside:  I wonder if borrowing an idea from Marvel Comics and have as an explanation of "Reaper incompetence" be the fact that their subconscious [the collective consciousness that serves as the base of the Reaper consciousness] was rebelling and guiding them into poor decisions or leaving openings where they could in turn be defeated???  Heck they could even explain the ME1 psychic shock along similar lines -- the "VI" controlling Saren got scrambled and instead of the Reaper's automatic defenses kicking in while it was rebooting the collective just shut the Reaper down and left it open for destruction.

 

A "dumb" theory / way to go but the more I think about it the more I like it.

 

My lack of knowledge of Marvel probably leads me to lacking proper context for this. While I don't necessarily dislike the idea, I don't view the reapers as AI. Their minds are organic, according to Legion. I know others have varying opinions on this but personally I don't view the reapers as VI or even AI in any traditional sense.

[Pasquale1234]

From the reaper's perspective, they DO evolve. The reapers are the pinnacle of evolution, by harvesting the species they are allowing them to evolve to the apex of evolution, at least in their eyes. So it isn't so much that they stop evolution, rather they advance it. From their perspective.

The reapers harvest species who may have evolved on a different path, to something much greater than them, and freeze them into their own forms for all eternity. Reapers decide at what point in a species' natural evolution they will be converted to reaper form and give them no choice - no chance to ever become something more than a reaper.
 

True. I fail to see the relevance of this, though. Did I suggest otherwise?

You mentioned it as analogous to "having our individual consciousnesses conjoined with a billion others." My point is that if any of those conjoined consciousnesses have different data, processing algorithms, and arrive at different conclusions - you'd never know it once they have been reaperized.
 

I think you're missing the point. The reapers are every species. Prior to being harvested and transcending they didn't want it. Afterwards they did. It's sorta like Green Eggs and Ham. You're forced into something you don't want initially but after you have it you realize how good it is and how it was silly to resist it in the first place. Each reaper represents a harvested species. No species, after being harvested, has ever come to another conclusion other than  "this is awesome, thanks! We had no idea what we were missing out on!" Is it arrogance to then insist that its whats best, when billions of years worth of species have always consistently and continuously agreed that it was for the best?

In order for this to work, you have to assume:
- That the members of these species are left with any free will, ability to think independently, ability to resist.
- That they retain a strong sense of who and what they were before they were transformed.
- That they retain their own values and ability to judge and compare between what they were before and their now eternal reaper state.
- That they would care enough about future species to bother to seek a different "solution".

Resistance is futile.
 

It would be more arrogant, imo, to assume that our cycle would be different. That for some reason we would come to a different conclusion when billions of years worth of species before us have never rejected their ascended forms after the fact.

I'm not convinced they have the ability or motivation to reject their "ascended" forms after the fact.

One of the hallmarks of the existing ME species as we know them is individuation. When you take that away, you take away what is was to belong to that species. It seems to me that the belief that you exist at the apex of evolution for all species for all time is part and parcel of what it is to become a reaper.

With all the power at their disposal, there are plenty of other things the reapers could do to promote order over chaos and prevent synthetics from wiping out organic life - which are their stated goals.

Just imagine what those first species harvested billions of years ago might have become by now had they been allowed to continue their evolutionary path.

[Valmar]

The reapers harvest species who may have evolved on a different path, to something much greater than them, and freeze them into their own forms for all eternity. Reapers decide at what point in a species' natural evolution they will be converted to reaper form and give them no choice - no chance to ever become something more than a reaper.
 

 

That isn't how they view it, however. It isn't THEIR perspective. They view themselves as the pinnacle of all evolution, the apex. There is nothing beyond them in their eyes.

 

You mentioned it as analogous to "having our individual consciousnesses conjoined with a billion others." My point is that if any of those conjoined consciousnesses have different data, processing algorithms, and arrive at different conclusions - you'd never know it once they have been reaperized.
 
 

 

 

It's a democracy. Majority rules. Like the geth. You'd likely never know it with the geth either unless they explicitly told you about it. Imagine the conversations with Legion, for example. There are countless ways he could had worded everything. He could have said this, he could have said that. What you ultimately hear is what was decided upon as being the best response by the majority of the programs operating within him. A small percentage of them might had preferred to say "we are" instead of "we're" and we would never know about it. In the end, what does it matter? Legion represents the majority consensus of the geth programs operating in its platform.

 

The reapers /are/ a gestalt consciousnesses of a billion organic minds.

"This paste will then be used in the construction of a newborn Reaper, with the victims' minds being preserved to form the Reaper's gestalt consciousness."

 

"A Reaper is essentially "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies.""

 

You don't see the parallels of that and the geth? Reaper Legion mentions that the human reaper represented everything the geth aspire to achieve. Some quotes:

 

Your species was offered everything geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. 

Trancended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies. Each a nation.

When Nazara corrupted the heretics, we touched its minds.

 

So even the geth seem to agree that these things are similar.

 

In order for this to work, you have to assume:
- That the members of these species are left with any free will, ability to think independently, ability to resist.
- That they retain a strong sense of who and what they were before they were transformed.
- That they retain their own values and ability to judge and compare between what they were before and their now eternal reaper state.
- That they would care enough about future species to bother to seek a different "solution".
 

 

You wouldn't have to assume any of it. It would be made clear to you in the proposed Leviathan DLC.

 

 I'm not convinced they have the ability or motivation to reject their "ascended" forms after the fact.

 

You don't have to be convinced. It's my story, not yours. I still think you've completely misinterpreted the point of my initial post regarding this. I never said any of this was true or real in the story. I presented it as a possible alternative to what we have. In my hypothetical they would be able to reject it if that is the conclusion the species came to. That would have been the foundation for the Leviathan plot, in fact.

 

With all the power at their disposal, there are plenty of other things the reapers could do to promote order over chaos and prevent synthetics from wiping out organic life - which are their stated goals.

Irrelevant to my hypothetical. You're assuming the reapers would have the same stated goals in my proposed storyline. They would not. Before you are so quick to counter someones hypothetical scenario of possible alternative storylines may I suggest you remember the topic for which you are in. I'm perfectly within my right to break free of the canon lore in a topic that expressively asks how we would change it. 

 

Just imagine what those first species harvested billions of years ago might have become by now had they been allowed to continue their evolutionary path.

 

According to the canon story? They'd all still be slaves to the Leviathans.

 

One could argue that to be a better goal for the reapers: ensuring each cycle gets a fresh slate to evolve and advance. Though this wouldn't be all that necessary since life took care of that by way of the synthetic pattern anyway. Once they reached their 'apex' the cycle just got wiped out their by own creation anyway. The difference with the reapers is that they're preserved in immortal reaper bodies instead of just being wiped out.

[GalacticWolf5]

Almost 3 years since the last game came out and many people still don't understand the Reapers. This is sad.

[prosthetic soul]

Rocks fall, everyone dies

Fin/

That's basically what happens in the endings we got. 

[KaiserShep]

That isn't how they view it, however. It isn't THEIR perspective. They view themselves as the pinnacle of all evolution, the apex. There is nothing beyond them in their eyes.

 

Well, obviously nothing is beyond them, because they kill it all before it can get to that point. They basically stave off obsolescence through mass extinction.

[CaIIisto]

That's basically what happens in the endings we got.

Throw some crayola in there and you have a point....

[Arcian]

Almost 3 years since the last game came out and many people still don't understand the Reapers. This is sad.

What's there to understand? All anyone needs to know is that the Reapers need to die, like, a lot.

[Valmar]

Well, obviously nothing is beyond them, because they kill it all before it can get to that point. They basically stave off obsolescence through mass extinction.

 

Still inaccurate in relation to the reaper perspective. They don't kill us or cause extinction - they preserve/harvest us. They are our salvation. Again it's important for context to remember this is THEIR perspective. You don't have to agree with it.

[Pasquale1234]

You don't have to be convinced. It's my story, not yours. I still think you've completely misinterpreted the point of my initial post regarding this. I never said any of this was true or real in the story.

Yeah, okay. Sorry I interrupted your creativity.

[Iakus]

 

It's a democracy. Majority rules. Like the geth. You'd likely never know it with the geth either unless they explicitly told you about it. Imagine the conversations with Legion, for example. There are countless ways he could had worded everything. He could have said this, he could have said that. What you ultimately hear is what was decided upon as being the best response by the majority of the programs operating within him. A small percentage of them might had preferred to say "we are" instead of "we're" and we would never know about it. In the end, what does it matter? Legion represents the majority consensus of the geth programs operating in its platform.

 

The reapers /are/ a gestalt consciousnesses of a billion organic minds.

"This paste will then be used in the construction of a newborn Reaper, with the victims' minds being preserved to form the Reaper's gestalt consciousness."

 

"A Reaper is essentially "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies.""

 

You don't see the parallels of that and the geth? Reaper Legion mentions that the human reaper represented everything the geth aspire to achieve. Some quotes:

 

Your species was offered everything geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. 

Trancended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies. Each a nation.

When Nazara corrupted the heretics, we touched its minds.

 

So even the geth seem to agree that these things are similar.

 

 

Though the geth also agree on using any of the Crucible's functions would be a Bad Idea, if you continue that quote:

 

"You rejected it.  You even refused the possibility of using th Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms.  You are more like us than we thought"

 

Of course this was pre-Rannoch Legion, who went "Reaper code!  Om nom nom!"  So yeah, that changed...

 

 

You don't have to be convinced. It's my story, not yours. I still think you've completely misinterpreted the point of my initial post regarding this. I never said any of this was true or real in the story. I presented it as a possible alternative to what we have. In my hypothetical they would be able to reject it if that is the conclusion the species came to. That would have been the foundation for the Leviathan plot, in fact.

 

Probably unintentional, but that sure sounds like Bioware's attitude regarding the endings

[themikefest]

If the Catalyst is preserving organics, what answer would it give when asked about the people that have been vaporized? Were they preserved? The thing did say it preserves all life.

[Vazgen]

If the Catalyst is preserving organics, what answer would it give when asked about the people that have been vaporized? Were they preserved? The thing did say it preserves all life.

Not all people get turned into goo. Only those who can add something new to the goo. Others are turned into husks. It's mentioned in the game

[themikefest]

Not all people get turned into goo. Only those who can add something new to the goo. Others are turned into husks. It's mentioned in the game

How would the reapers know that before vaporizing those people?

[Vazgen]

How would the reapers know that before vaporizing those people?

I don't know how they figure it out. Javik did it by touch. But they somehow do and some people are dragged away to the goo centers and others are impaled and "huskified". 

[themikefest]

I don't know how they figure it out. Javik did it by touch. But they somehow do and some people are dragged away to the goo centers and others are impaled and "huskified". 

Really? How would they drag people away when they get vaporized running to the beam, being in a ship that gets destroyed or in a building that gets destroyed?

[Vazgen]

Really? How would they drag people away when they get vaporized running to the beam, being in a ship that gets destroyed or in a building that gets destroyed?

I guess the idea is that they seek people with specific traits. And these traits are not unique enough to be in only one individual. Meaning they can deal with collateral damage and still find all the traits they need for the Reaper.

[themikefest]

I guess the idea is that they seek people with specific traits. And these traits are not unique enough to be in only one individual. Meaning they can deal with collateral damage and still find all the traits they need for the Reaper.

So they're not preserving all. The Leviathan turd may want to reword what it told Shepard. Its most that are preserved and not all are preserved like the thing says.

[Vazgen]

So they're not preserving all. The Leviathan turd may want to reword what it told Shepard. Its most that are preserved and not all are preserved like the thing says.

They preserve the species. That's the idea. All the unique traits of the members of the species are in the goo. That's Reaper idea of "preservation".

And I don't remember turd saying anything about "all life". It says "preserve life at any cost". Not "all life". At least that's what I remember. Can you link the part with the "all life" mention?

[themikefest]

They preserve the species. That's the idea. All the unique traits of the members of the species are in the goo. That's Reaper idea of "preservation".

And I don't remember turd saying anything about "all life". It says "preserve life at any cost". Not "all life". At least that's what I remember. Can you link the part with the "all life" mention?

http://youtu.be/yx_smmq_3AE?t=4m15s

[Vazgen]

http://youtu.be/yx_smmq_3AE?t=4m15s

Ah, so it's the kid who says that. I thought of Leviathans themselves

Context is important in this conversation.

"Reapers preserve all life - organic and synthetic" 

It does not mean that they preserve all organic and all synthetic life, just that they preserve both organic and synthetic life the best they can.