439 réponses à ce sujet

[Valmar]

Seriously? How? Choose refuse, and all the civilized species you know are extinguished. Is total galactic annihilation really a point to make? In that case, why not make the whole universe implode

 

Don't forget the low EMS endings that can have all the humans on earth being turned to ash by the blast, the Normandy crashing and killing everyone on the squad oh and the relays going boom. Honestly I'm not sure how much grimmer things could be... a refusal ending where Liara's warnings are discovered, destroyed and the reapers are never defeated in any cycle?

[Iakus]

Don't forget the low EMS endings that can have all the humans on earth being turned to ash by the blast, the Normandy crashing and killing everyone on the squad oh and the relays going boom. Honestly I'm not sure how much grimmer things could be... a refusal ending where Liara's warnings are discovered, destroyed and the reapers are never defeated in any cycle?

Those endings are dark and tragic, and therefore cool.

 

Anything that smacks of happiness is selfish entitlement

[themikefest]

Don't forget the low EMS endings that can have all the humans on earth being turned to ash by the blast, the Normandy crashing and killing everyone on the squad oh and the relays going boom. Honestly I'm not sure how much grimmer things could be... a refusal ending where Liara's warnings are discovered, destroyed and the reapers are never defeated in any cycle?

That only happens if destroy is the only option if ems is below 1750. In low ems control, the crew of the Normandy lives, still have a memorial wall scene and the Normandy will be getting repaired, The only difference between low ems control and high ems control is the amount of time it takes to rebuild

[von uber]

I suspect the Geth were chosen because based on the Rannoch arc, we are all supposed to feel sympathy for the poor Geth who are the victims of the evil Quarians. Therefore Destroy should appear more distasteful, especially to those who have chosen this as the best place to start the series.

[dreamgazer]

Or, more simply, the geth and EDI both have connections to the Reapers.

[von uber]

Or, more simply, the geth and EDI both have connections to the Reapers.

 

Most of the technology in the universe does, and of course. Shep does.

[dreamgazer]

Most of the technology in the universe does, and of course. Shep does.

The geth and EDI are "living" programs, though.

Shepard having Reaper technology is purely speculation, and likely inaccurate since it was never discussed.

[StarcloudSWG]

No Crucible. No Catalyst. Instead...

 

Reapers started with 'Harbinger'. An ancient race in a protracted conflict with another race, that decided to 'solve' the problem of advanced civilizations trampling and suppressing younger ones by, basically, creating a giant superconstruct and uploading themselves into it.

Then going around and harvesting advanced civilizations in order to a> increase their compute power and b> have minions in order to protect their goals.

 

The Citadel, then, and the Keepers, are Harbinger's opposing race, harvested. Before the mind-control process was advanced enough to assure that new Reapers would toe the line. Avina is just the latest avatar of the Citadel, whose ability to express itself has been heavily constrained everywhere except the deep central control. For reasons of 'efficiency', the Citadel is not only the nexus of the mass relay network, but also the heart of Reaper networking, communications, and coordination.

 

But the Reaper's hold over the Citadel's AI is not perfect. Over the different cycles, the Citadel has been able to seed clues and helpful bits of technology. The Protheans found one bit of that tech, and used the knowledge to free the Keepers from direct Reaper takeover.

 

There are other bits of tech and ancient knowledge. The game then would have been about a> uniting the races of the galaxy to fight together and b> a race to collect these bits and pieces, to assemble them into something that would *actually* be able to mess with the Reapers without the bull**** of space magic and the Crucible. First, the knowledge that the Citadel is somehow the key to defeating the Reapers and second, the actual devices needed to 'hack' the Reapers.

 

Through their agent Jack Harper (the Illusive Man), the Reapers are aware the Citadel is trying to slip their leash, and they subtly urge TIM to interfere with collecting these artifacts. Since TIM is controlled by them, they'd be able to defeat the Citadel's attempt.

 

So the final choice would still be much the same, but.. different. Shepard would get the final piece from the Illusive Man's body in the ending confrontation, and would be able to talk with Avina. And discover that Avina has been a prisoner of the Reapers, fighting to get free this whole time. 

 

Avina would be able, with the aid of the device ripping through her programmed constraints, to offer the choice. She could destroy the Reapers (and the Reapers alone) by infiltrating a self-destruct virus though the network or otherwise crippling them (say by making the Reapers drop their barriers completely). THat would give galactic civilization the edge needed for a conventional victory. Since the Reaper creatures are basically just remote controlled automatons, the destruction of the Reapers would also eliminate all the Reaper controlled creatures.

 

She could 'take over' the Reapers, turning them to her own more peaceful purposes. Rebuilding the things they destroyed and acting as a 'consulting library'.

 

Or she could offer Shepard 'Ascension'. Uploading Shepard's consciousness and merging with Avina AND the Reapers. This last choice would be like Synthesis, but only require Shepard to become fully cybernetic, inhabiting both a physical body and the gestalt network. The process could be repeated to allow others to join Shepard.

 

It would still be a literal 'Deus ex Machina', but it's a Deus ex Machina whose seeds were laid back in Mass Effect and parts of which were hinted at in ME 2.

[dreamgazer]

I've always liked the idea of rewriting elements around the Catalyst and, instead, having Avina as the intelligence explaining the options to Shepard. You could take the idea of her as "the intelligence" in some pretty interesting and eerie directions, too, if desired.

[von uber]

It was Avina all along?

[Reorte]

Those endings are dark and tragic, and therefore cool.
 
Anything that smacks of happiness is selfish entitlement

Having a dark and tragic ending as the worst outcome for a badly done playthrough is fine. It should've been easier to get that result, with what you get for Refuse being the result of just a really awful playthrough (Crucible fails to do anything if you've got a pathetic EMS perhaps).

[Valmar]

That only happens if destroy is the only option if ems is below 1750. In low ems control, the crew of the Normandy lives, still have a memorial wall scene and the Normandy will be getting repaired, The only difference between low ems control and high ems control is the amount of time it takes to rebuild

 

That's pretty disappointing, I have to say. Destroy low and high EMS endings are pretty drastic from one another, almost unfair that control's low-high variants are so insignificantly different.

 

The geth and EDI are "living" programs, though.
 

 

The geth in the very least were 'living' prior to the reaper upgrades. You'd think they would 'downgrade' themselves to avoid being wiped out or something. I mean, they are working on the crucible. The very device that leads to their destruction. You'd think they'd have SOME insight on its possible ramifications on their systems.

 

Shepard having Reaper technology is purely speculation, and likely inaccurate since it was never discussed.

 

True but there is a lot more supporting it than there is refuting it.

 

I've always liked the idea of rewriting elements around the Catalyst and, instead, having Avina as the intelligence explaining the options to Shepard. You could take the idea of her as "the intelligence" in some pretty interesting and eerie directions, too, if desired.
 

 

I sure would had liked that a lot better than the star brat. Though it still carries with it some of the inherent issues that make the first game's plot seem redundant. If the reaper intelligence is on the citadel the entire time then what was the point of the keepers or even Sovereign? Nevermind why are the reapers explaining to Shepard how to defeat them. Having the choices explained to you by the crucible scientist seems like the better route to me.

 

Throughout the game Shepard potentially recruited quite a few techies for the crucible project. They can all come together around a table and share their findings and speculations. The more EMS and scientists you recruited for it the more data you get handed to you, explaining all the possible outcomes. Honestly, even with my issues with the synthesis ending, removing the starbrat would solve an unspeakable amount of problems for me. Plus incorporating the crucible techies will make your EMS score and all those side missions feel like they mattered more because you'd see all of them at work, rather than just being numbers on a scoreboard.

 

Maybe toss in a choice to save or kill Miranda's dad aswell. With his research on sanctuary having him on the crucible could lead to breakthroughs on how to control the reapers. However, getting him on your side means you have to kill Miranda because otherwise she won't let him leave alive. It could be the defining decision that determines rather or not control is even an option to you. Dr. Archer could even play some part in this if he's alive.

 

Also could toss in a choice that has you telling Hackett to lay off destroying TIM's base once you discover the human reaper is still there. Doing so leads to Shepard having to face many more troops and two of the squadmate's being critically injured and therefor no longer 'usable' for the rest of the game, with your ending EMS determining rather or not they pull through. Not blowing up TIM's base nets you the reaper and all the research there related to it which helps the crucible scientists better understand that effects of the crucible on reaper forces. This would mean of course that you no longer get the reaper brain/heart by default and have to actually make the choice to get it.

[KaiserShep]

True but there is a lot more supporting it than there is refuting it.

 

As far as the trilogy's narrative is concerned, there's no support for this idea at all. There would have to be some kind of reveal somewhere to determine this, otherwise it simply wouldn't be true. We even get Project Lazarus video logs, and still nothing, and yet we're reminded on multiple occasions that EDI is derived from tech salvaged from Sovereign.

 

If anything, the possibility of Shepard's survival holds more weight than all fan theory.

[Massa FX]

I did not read this thread, just the OP.

 

How do I want ME3 to end?

 

Against all odds and conventionally because everyone said it couldn't be done. Everyone lives if you had the right choices throughout the trilogy, except for those destined to die (Thane, Mordin, TIM).

 

But everyone else... lives including Anderson and most importantly, Shepard.

[Valmar]

As far as the trilogy's narrative is concerned, there's no support for this idea at all. There would have to be some kind of reveal somewhere to determine this, otherwise it simply wouldn't be true. We even get Project Lazarus video logs, and still nothing, and yet we're reminded on multiple occasions that EDI is derived from tech salvaged from Sovereign.

 

If anything, the possibility of Shepard's survival holds more weight than all fan theory.

 

I'm still confused why anyone doubt's Shepard's survival.

 

I know there is no narrative actually telling you that Shepard was brought back with reaper-inspired tech but there is support within the narrative that it could be the case, albeit indirectly. Just because it never directly says it doesn't take away from all the connections buried within. I won't list them all because ugh, too much to comb through, but its clear TIM was interested in testing husk technology early on. He was even using reaper parts to make EDI. Given what he manages to create as in ME3 (improved soldiers) it doesn't seem far fetched that some of the tech used to bring back Shepard was derived from reaper technology. They did basically bring a completely charred and dead body back to life, afterall. Something the dragon's teeth were clearly able to do since we see many charred corpses impales on them, waiting for conversion.

 

Far as I know nothing in the story contradicts this possibility. I wasn't saying I actually agreed with it but there is more going for it than there is going against it. Which was my earlier point. To be honest I don't believe it myself simply because it seems like it would be more directly mentioned if it was the case. That doesn't mean I'm oblivious to the possibly being there. Nothing says it couldn't be so. I can't say "oh, well, thats impossible for X, Y, and Z." All I can say is that they never told us or hinted to us that he was brought back with reaper tech. That doesn't take away the connections that can be made, though.

[von uber]

I don't doubt the survival; just the way it was done was very, very poor and felt like a 'ha ha! Surprise! Now have some credits! '

Oh and using reaper tech makes much more sense within the context of cerberus and their later actions.

[Valmar]

Of that I definitely agree. The survival ending deserved a happier outcome with more substance.

[KaiserShep]

I'm still confused why anyone doubt's Shepard's survival.

 

I know there is no narrative actually telling you that Shepard was brought back with reaper-inspired tech but there is support within the narrative that it could be the case, albeit indirectly. Just because it never directly says it doesn't take away from all the connections buried within. I won't list them all because ugh, too much to comb through, but its clear TIM was interested in testing husk technology early on. He was even using reaper parts to make EDI. Given what he manages to create as in ME3 (improved soldiers) it doesn't seem far fetched that some of the tech used to bring back Shepard was derived from reaper technology. They did basically bring a completely charred and dead body back to life, afterall. Something the dragon's teeth were clearly able to do since we see many charred corpses impales on them, waiting for conversion.

 

Far as I know nothing in the story contradicts this possibility. I wasn't saying I actually agreed with it but there is more going for it than there is going against it. Which was my earlier point. To be honest I don't believe it myself simply because it seems like it would be more directly mentioned if it was the case. That doesn't mean I'm oblivious to the possibly being there. Nothing says it couldn't be so. I can't say "oh, well, thats impossible for X, Y, and Z." All I can say is that they never told us or hinted to us that he was brought back with reaper tech. That doesn't take away the connections that can be made, though.

 

I don't doubt Shepard's survival at all.

 

Trouble is, the reaper tech angle becomes irrelevant simply because there's no source of crises in the story as a result and there's no consequences. It's only ever touched upon that Shepard might be manipulated by The Illusive Man as a result of Project Lazarus, but it never goes further than that. In the end, there's really no difference at all if it was reaper technology or just super-expensive gizmos developed in-house by Cerberus themselves without using salvaged parts from Sovereign. Because of this, I consider the latter the most logical choice.
 

Anyway, this idea was actually explored by BioWare, and it was meant to be the source of drama between Shepard and the VS, but it was abandoned. If they abandoned it, so will I, just like the dark energy problem.

[Valmar]

I agree that its irrelevant. Viewing it one way or another changes nothing. Regardless there is nothing in the lore that explicitly denies the possibility or contradicts it. My point was that you can take things out of the lore and build together an argument to suggest that its true. While at the sametime there is nothing in the lore to take out to say that it isn't true. There is more support for it being possible than there is for it not being possible. That doesn't mean its true, of course, or even that theres a lot going for it. It just means it cannot be called a false interpretation. Unlike the IT, for example, which has content that proves it wrong. You have to disgard lore to make it fit, where as with the idea of Shepard being rebuilt with at least reaper-inspired technology is never actually contradicted by anything.

[Heimdall]

I don't think there was anything wrong, in principle, with the endings we got. I still think Shepard's self sacrifice is the best way to end the trilogy.

What I would do was seed the ending ideas and options throughout the game's plot. Basically, the subject of the Leviathan DLC would have been a major plot point and probably replaced Cerberus' portion of the plot. Control could have been the Leviathan's attempt to take back their dominance of the Galaxy. Actually, it might have been very interesting if the Illusive Man had been under the control of the Leviathans ever since the First Contact War, and Cerberus was their instrument in this cycle. Better that than the rather pathetic pawns of the Reapers. Honestly I think the Leviathan's should have been the main focus of ME3 and the Crucible should have had it's origins with them, designs they gave to a previous cycle.

Yes, I think the Crucible or some similar plot device is inevitable if we expect to defeat a far more numerous and more technologically advanced foe. I just think they messed up in springing the Star Child and the three choices on us without much warning. Don't give us Control after spending the entire game telling us it's a bad idea, and don't spring Synthesis on us with barely any understanding of what it is or its implications. And the Catalyst should have been introduced much earlier, even without telling us exactly what it is.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Shepard wouldn't have gotten blasted by Harbinger. You have had to make it to the beam. Then Boss fight on the Citadel + Shepard fires the Crucible ... there is no Starbrat conversation. Cutscene ... Shepard just arms it to fire. While it's powering up. The Normandy picks up Shepard (probably by shuttle), and gets away before the Citadel fires. The reapers are destroyed - you beat the boss; you destroyed the reapers and saved the galaxy. You won. Your LI is on board the Normandy (how? by shuttle of course!) and you're on the port observation deck with him/her looking out the window as the Normandy re-enters Earth space.

 

Yes, a happy ending.

 

No one would have complained about it either. No one.

[SporkFu]

No one would have complained about it either. No one.

That's a bold statement round these parts, from what I've seen. ... Just kidding, I like your idea.

[Han Shot First]

Or, more simply, the geth and EDI both have connections to the Reapers.

 

The Geth being in the line of fire of the Destroy option with the Crucible was a bit forced though. I suspect that is the only reason why the Geth's Rannoch arc had them seeking Reaper code to become more like organics (a sharp deviation from their ME2 portrayal). It's there just to put them in the crosshairs for Destroy and give people a reason to consider Synthesis.

[KaiserShep]

Shepard wouldn't have gotten blasted by Harbinger. You have had to make it to the beam. Then Boss fight on the Citadel + Shepard fires the Crucible ... there is no Starbrat conversation. Cutscene ... Shepard just arms it to fire. While it's powering up. The Normandy picks up Shepard (probably by shuttle), and gets away before the Citadel fires. The reapers are destroyed - you beat the boss; you destroyed the reapers and saved the galaxy. You won. Your LI is on board the Normandy (how? by shuttle of course!) and you're on the port observation deck with him/her looking out the window as the Normandy re-enters Earth space.
 
Yes, a happy ending.
 
No one would have complained about it either. No one.

To add to this, I would've liked to have the fate of the two companions be determined by whether or not they can escape the blasting as well. You can't revive them, because there'd be nothing to revive, and if they go down, that's it. I imagine a lot of people would load and reload this sequence to get it right, but I'd probably enjoy it a great deal.