143 réponses à ce sujet

[Yomond]

This is something Ive thought about a lot and while i like the idea of a "shy hero" I dont think it would work in practice at least not in a computer game.

video games tend towards empowerment fantasy and empowerment is assertive. A socially awkward PC just couldn't "Lead Them or Fall" Game Over.

 

I would like, especially with the nonhuman inquisitors, to have some culture shock moments. but I think just the over arc of building a international organization implies that the inquisitor has to be a take charge personality. Even the back grounds you where there as a spy or guard or for the negotiation. you can't have a bartender back ground. 

[lupin8314]

I think people have to come to terms with the idea that bioware is telling a story, you have lots of leeway as to how your character will develop within that story but part of the responsability of the player is to acknowledge that they have to work within the story to have the best experiences.

 

If I refuse to play anything else than a Inquisitor that is an alien here to purge the chantry of left handed redheads all while researching how to change the qun to accept aplple dumplings as an officle food. I am not going to find the experience enjoyable because the game wont let me do what i want to do. (Obvious extremes used to illustrate a point.)

 

Your character is a leader, you have to lead them or fall its in the trailer. Expect you being a shy wallflower will cause conflicts to the story bioware is trying to write.

yeah, like what many people had said, Aveline is no doubt a strong leader. but she still fumbles in matters of the hearts. i would be quite disappointed if my character is nothing but a Mary Sue who has no faults or whatsoever. Such character do no exists in real-life and if so, will not kill for any reasons like Mother Theresa.

[Fizzie Panda]

I think it's because the main character of these games must lead, and not follow

[Terodil]

yeah, like what many people had said, Aveline is no doubt a strong leader. but she still fumbles in matters of the hearts. i would be quite disappointed if my character is nothing but a Mary Sue who has no faults or whatsoever. Such character do no exists in real-life and if so, will not kill for any reasons like Mother Theresa.

 

The problem is that the faults and weaknesses can only be minor and/or made up in your (the player's) head, otherwise you risk alienating most of your players because a pre-chosen, character-based weakness has the potential to ruin any roleplaying experience.

[In Exile]

yeah, like what many people had said, Aveline is no doubt a strong leader. but she still fumbles in matters of the hearts. i would be quite disappointed if my character is nothing but a Mary Sue who has no faults or whatsoever. Such character do no exists in real-life and if so, will not kill for any reasons like Mother Theresa.

 

Aveline is a belligerent person, but it's a YMMV whether or not she's actually a strong leader. Media sometimes plays up "leader of people who is incapable of reading social cues", but IRL that doesn't really work. 

[Tamyn]

Being romance-shy doesn't mean you're incapable of reading social cues; it means you're insecure in your desirability and let the fear of rejection override your perceptions. You can be confident in your work skills and insecure in your personal life. You do need people skills to be a good leader but that's not in a romantic context. I don't know what the cause of Aveline's awkwardness was though.

[Yomond]

My point is more that Aveline is an NPC and you go on a quest involving her love life. Its a nice moment but you as the player can choose not to take that quest. It has less to do with the characters in the game and more to do with making sure the player is the motive force in the narrative. 

 

In DA2 as in most games the player really has to discover and solve all the problems. Hawk (you) go to Aveline and get a quest then choose if or how to finish it. The PC is NEEDED by the characters in the game world your the "hero" you do all the stuff.

 

I would love a wider range of role-playing choices but as the player we(I at least) want to be the one shaping the outcome as much as possible that ends up necessitating a proactive PC.

 

As a thought experiment how would Aveline quest play out if the she was the PC instead of Hawk.

[In Exile]

Being romance-shy doesn't mean you're incapable of reading social cues; it means you're insecure in your desirability and let the fear of rejection override your perceptions. You can be confident in your work skills and insecure in your personal life. You do need people skills to be a good leader but that's not in a romantic context. I don't know what the cause of Aveline's awkwardness was though.

 

Aveline wasn't awkward. She was incapable of reading even basic social cues. That's why she couldn't tell Donnic was already into her. 

 

You might be awkward around someone you like, but if you've got top-notch people skills, you'll figure out basic things like "Does X like me?" 

[Chari]

That's why I preferred DA:O's system to DA2 click-a-heart-go-to-bed approach. PC could act shy towards Alistair and Lelianna, could be a virgin, the romance was in a way initiated by LIs for once and not us (due to us being obvious to crushes and accidentaly saying things that could be understood as flirting). Ah, one of pros of un-voiced system, when we could imagine how our characters said the things instead of having a canon, solid version... the tone, the voice, the expression...

But alas I don't think they'll give us a way to act shy and not initiative but still start a romance... I wish they'd get rid of these super obvious "HEREISTHEHEARTCLICKTOFLIRTYOUSHEEPISNTISALREADYOBVIOUS???!!!" heart symbols. They kinda kill the suspence and surprise - you pretty much know that yeah, we'll sleep if I keep clicking them, I don't even have to pay attention to what Hawke said 

Like when Lelianna suddenly revealed she liked me, but I was flirting with Alistair and didn't mind Zevran's flirting and for some reason it made me see these characters as... more alive, more real

[Mimilette]

Excellent idea, OP.

 

I disliked the heart in DA2 too, and the fact that you had no other choice to initiate the romance than clic at least once on it during one specific conversation in Act2 (I think). If I recall correctly, any flirting prior to that point had no bearing on the romance either. I understand perfectly that we are limited by Bioware narrative and that's fine, but in Origin, you had much more liberty.

 

If you take the example of Alistair, there were several instances in different conversations that would spark interest from him. Then you could make the first move for the love scene, or wait until he made the first move. I thought that allowed a much more interesting roleplay.

 

I understand the argument concerning the necessity to lead, but I think it's perfectly believable to have someone with no great people skill being a somewhat hero despite him/herself. The Inquisitor is chosen to lead because of his magical glowing hand, that's his credential (at least I think, I haven't followed every single news so I might be mistaken). I actually played a Warden that was kind of a coward and just wanted out of the Blight alive. And anyway, someone can be a great leader and being completely oblivious when it comes to love. Or respectful sexual interest.

 

Obviously it's too late to change anything for Inquisition so I can just hope that for the next game, they'll consider removing the heart or at least make it so you can initiate a romance without it being an absolute requirement.

[Lebanese Dude]

Excellent idea, OP.

 

I disliked the heart in DA2 too, and the fact that you had no other choice to initiate the romance than clic at least once on it during one specific conversation in Act2 (I think). If I recall correctly, any flirting prior to that point had no bearing on the romance either. I understand perfectly that we are limited by Bioware narrative and that's fine, but in Origin, you had much more liberty.

 

If you take the example of Alistair, there were several instances in different conversations that would spark interest from him. Then you could make the first move for the love scene, or wait until he made the first move. I thought that allowed a much more interesting roleplay.

 

I understand the argument concerning the necessity to lead, but I think it's perfectly believable to have someone with no great people skill being a somewhat hero despite him/herself. The Inquisitor is chosen to lead because of his magical glowing hand, that's his credential (at least I think, I haven't followed every single news so I might be mistaken). I actually played a Warden that was kind of a coward and just wanted out of the Blight alive. And anyway, someone can be a great leader and being completely oblivious when it comes to love. Or respectful sexual interest.

 

Obviously it's too late to change anything for Inquisition so I can just hope that for the next game, they'll consider removing the heart or at least make it so you can initiate a romance without it being a absolute requirement.

 

I don't disagree with you, but let's not pretend it was any different in DAO. You had to flirt with them in very explicit ways I might add.

Leliana: "Is your fruit forbidden?"

Zevran: "I can think of uses for a handsome elf like you" or something

 

Morrigan was just like Anders where she comes on to you.

 

etc...

 

The absence of the heart icon does not make it any less explicit. 

[Mimilette]

I don't disagree with you, but let's not pretend it was any different in DAO. You had to flirt with them in very explicit ways I might add.

Leliana: "Is your fruit forbidden?"

Zevran: "I can think of uses for a handsome elf like you" or something

 

Morrigan was just like Anders where she comes on to you.

 

etc...

 

The absence of the heart icon does not make it any less explicit. 

 

You are right, it depended on the LI, though I believe you had some choices for all of them. Wasn't the line different depending on the Warden gender with Leliana for example? I don't believe you were also forced to chose only one option to start the romance with any of the LI. At least for Leliana I *think* I remember that you could just tell her you enjoyed her company, which in itself is not necessarily flirty.

I did them all but it was a long time ago so I might be wrong.

[Chari]

I don't disagree with you, but let's not pretend it was any different in DAO. You had to flirt with them in very explicit ways I might add.

Leliana: "Is your fruit forbidden?"

Zevran: "I can think of uses for a handsome elf like you" or something

 

Morrigan was just like Anders where she comes on to you.

 

etc...

 

The absence of the heart icon does not make it any less explicit. 

Eh, I didn't flirt with Lelianna. At least I don't think that saying that I enjoy her company is obvious flirting. And that's what made it fun

I like Zevran's straightforward approach, quite unusual for his archetype: if one doesn't like him flirting, one can ask him to stop and he will. It fits his character

 

Yes, yes it does. In DA2 it didn't even matter (at least I didn't notice any differences) what exactly Hawke said. You could skip reading and just blindly click on icons to start and success at romance. But the icon system was pretty terrible overall, not just in terms of flirting. So I'm not exactly thrilled about it returning

[TheKinkyHuntress]

I wish we could play as a shy/inexperienced character too, but with the PC needing to initiate everything with a heart command I see little chance of that happening.
 
snip
 
The most I think I can hope for is the PC being able to initiate in a subtle way.

Anders I think once or twice forces Hawke to reciprocate a flirt or turn it down. So it is possible, but I don't see the option for being shy about a romance happening in every circumstance. Iron Bull and Dorian, maybe? Perhaps not in the others.

[Terodil]

I'm not sure the "clickthishearttostartromance" issue is the core of the problem. That's just a UI issue -- it can be wilfully ignored for RPing (just like the infamous "star" in some convos). If your main problem is the obviousness regarding the consequences, that, at least, is gone from DA:I if I understood it right. No '<facebook thumb> your companion likes this' style notification.

 

Fitting different protagonist personalities into a specific dialogue tree is damn hard, especially if you want stuff to "stick", i.e. have consequences for later conversations. Bioware is already doing pretty well I think with their standard 2-3 personalities per protagonist. Still, I would definitely support such an alternative

[Arvaarad]

That's why I preferred DA:O's system to DA2 click-a-heart-go-to-bed approach. PC could act shy towards Alistair and Lelianna, could be a virgin, the romance was in a way initiated by LIs for once and not us (due to us being obvious to crushes and accidentaly saying things that could be understood as flirting). Ah, one of pros of un-voiced system, when we could imagine how our characters said the things instead of having a canon, solid version... the tone, the voice, the expression...
But alas I don't think they'll give us a way to act shy and not initiative but still start a romance... I wish they'd get rid of these super obvious "HEREISTHEHEARTCLICKTOFLIRTYOUSHEEPISNTISALREADYOBVIOUS???!!!" heart symbols. They kinda kill the suspence and surprise - you pretty much know that yeah, we'll sleep if I keep clicking them, I don't even have to pay attention to what Hawke said
Like when Lelianna suddenly revealed she liked me, but I was flirting with Alistair and didn't mind Zevran's flirting and for some reason it made me see these characters as... more alive, more real

It would be interesting if, for certain LIs, flirting too early would lock them up. Or flirting at inappropriate times.

DA2 did kind of introduce the notion that the heart == intentions, rather than results. The heart can be used with Aveline, Tallis, and Varric. Even with LIs, some flirt lines ultimately had no effect (the character didn't perceive them as flirts). But it would be interesting to see that explored further.

IMO, "heart" guarantees that the PC says it in a flirty tone, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee that the recipient welcomes or even notices the flirtiness.

[Chari]

I'm not sure the "clickthishearttostartromance" issue is the core of the problem. That's just a UI issue -- it can be wilfully ignored for RPing (just like the infamous "star" in some convos). If your main problem is the obviousness regarding the consequences, that, at least, is gone from DA:I if I understood it right. No '<facebook thumb> your companion likes this' style notification.

 

Fitting different protagonist personalities into a specific dialogue tree is damn hard, especially if you want stuff to "stick", i.e. have consequences for later conversations. Bioware is already doing pretty well I think with their standard 2-3 personalities per protagonist. Still, I would definitely support such an alternative

It kills all RPing, all the suspence, all the surprise. Lelianna and, hmm, Liara suddenly confessing their feelings was a nice surprise because though obviously it was triggered by an unattentive player it made the characters having their own little minds and sometimes misreading signals seem more alive, more complex 

 

And the only Bioware's PC so far with 2-3 personalities is Hawke. Warden is a blank state, Shepard could be paragon or renegade but also paragade or renegon depending on choices. Inquisitor... I doubt htere will be a set personality for them, that just kills RPing

[Chari]

It would be interesting if, for certain LIs, flirting too early would lock them up. Or flirting at inappropriate times.

DA2 did kind of introduce the notion that the heart == intentions, rather than results. The heart can be used with Aveline, Tallis, and Varric. Even with LIs, some flirt lines ultimately had no effect (the character didn't perceive them as flirts). But it would be interesting to see that explored further.

IMO, "heart" guarantees that the PC says it in a flirty tone, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee that the recipient welcomes or even notices the flirtiness.

But what if a PC making the first step is not fitting? I hoped my Hawke and Fenris could slowly fall in love with each other without noticing it... I kind of could do it with Lelianna and female Warden, there were many approaches to Alistair which made it look like he did the first step, Anders too... etc 

Plus knowing 90% sure that an icon will result an an obvious way is... just killing the fun

[Tamyn]

Aveline wasn't awkward. She was incapable of reading even basic social cues. That's why she couldn't tell Donnic was already into her. 

 

You might be awkward around someone you like, but if you've got top-notch people skills, you'll figure out basic things like "Does X like me?" 

 

She seemed to read Donnic's interest to me when she smiled at him calling her a beautiful sight after the party rescued him from an ambush. Aveline just tried to formalize the whole thing with a courtship and dowry stuff instead of talking to him directly, which I interpret as social awkwardness. You could be right though.

 

I don't disagree with you, but let's not pretend it was any different in DAO. You had to flirt with them in very explicit ways I might add.

Leliana: "Is your fruit forbidden?"

Zevran: "I can think of uses for a handsome elf like you" or something

 

Morrigan was just like Anders where she comes on to you.

 

etc...

 

The absence of the heart icon does not make it any less explicit. 

 

For Zevran and Alistair (the two I romanced) at least, you didn't have to pick those flirt lines. The first time I initiated Alistair's romance was during the talk about taint side effects and all my PC said was, "Just try that line on me," referring to Duncan saying, "You'll see." Alistair was the first to flirt after that: "I've got much better lines for you." The romance started when my PC responded correctly afterwards.

 

The main difference between that and the heart icon is the NPC testing the waters and you choosing to shoot them down or not.

 

 

Anders I think once or twice forces Hawke to reciprocate a flirt or turn it down. So it is possible, but I don't see the option for being shy about a romance happening in every circumstance. Iron Bull and Dorian, maybe? Perhaps not in the others.

 

I read that they completely removed the NPCs' romantic initiative for this game, possibly because of people complaining about Anders in the last game. It is sad.

[Mimilette]

If they really did that, then it's extremely disappointing. I know that some people vocally voiced their dislike about Anders flirting with their male Hawke because it made them uncomfortable. I guess it is ok to have things that you don't like, though I think in this instance it does sound narrow-minded, but they shouldn't remove an interesting feature story wise for a few uncomfortable people. Maybe I'm being biased and they were many? I somehow doubt it but I wasn't following the game at the time.

 

I have seen some complaints about the fact you got rivalry points if you turned him down and people interpreting that as being "trapped" if you wanted to friend him, but again, it's a matter of personnal preference rather than a flaw in the system. I think it's perfectly acceptable for a character to not handle well rejection. And it didn't prevent you to be friend with him anyway.

 

There was one complaint I found legitimate : you had no way to turn him down nicely. The options were pretty much "Yes!", "Yeah, maybe" and "Don't get anywhere near me!". No "Thank you, but no" option, which was very frustrating. They could have kept the rivalry gain, but I didn't like feeling like an ******* when I refused.

 

However, you don't need to completely remove initiative from the NPC to fix those specific problems. I really hope that they'll reconsider that for future games.

[katerinafm]

In Origins there are various degrees of obliviousness or shyness you can have your PC be with your LI. You don't even have to sleep with your LI and can tell them you want to wait. You can act completely oblivious with Leliana when she flirts with you and wants to invite you in your tent, etc. We had  more variety in the things our PC could say due to the character not being voiced. With the limits to how much dialogue can exist and be recorded for the PC now, there has to be a middle ground.

[PrinceLionheart]

So in other words, "Please notice me Cassandra-Senpai?"

 

More seriously, I'd say both Leliana's and Morrigan's romances came pretty close to hitting the mark. In the former, there's a piece of conversation where you're insecure about the romance and your potential sacrifice and Leliana gives you reassurance about your romance with her. With Morrigan, it's a straight up tug of war of you wanting more out of your relationship with her than she does.

[R0vena]

 

I read that they completely removed the NPCs' romantic initiative for this game, possibly because of people complaining about Anders in the last game. It is sad.

Oh, I hope not.(

For some characters it makes perfect sense to show an initiative first and not just shyly wait in the corner until PC will notice them. Not for all, of course, but still...

[LOLandStuff]

Remember when Anders made a move on the PC and people freaked out? Good times.

[PrinceLionheart]

Remember when Anders made a move on the PC and people freaked out? Good times.

 

I almost caught teh gay from him though!