448 réponses à ce sujet

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

As some of you will know, I have been working on my campaign for a number of years, and while I have not been posting in this "module" forum much, I was encouraged by one of my blog followers (Eguintir Eligard) to post here as well. I have always been reserved about doing so, as I did not want to raise expectations with respect to any potential release any time soon. However, as my own blog comments have dropped off in recent months, now is probably the right time to consider posting here too. Every builder needs feedback to help encourage them into action now and then.

So, this post will be the first of those that will be copied from my own blog to help reach a larger audience. For those interested in past posts, they can obviously be obtained from my blog (link in my signature). However, all future blog entries will also be copied here.

There are many comments and descriptions about my campaign and its gameplay at my own blog, and for those that may not yet be aware of some of its objectives, then please check it out: http://worldofalthea.blogspot.co.uk/ You will also find the occasional screenshot there too.

Player's Expectations

As the years have passed and I have continued to add material to my own campaign, one cannot help but notice the incredible strides in mainstream computer games in both the visual and sound, as well as gameplay and content. Don't misunderstand me, I always knew things could only "get better" as far as the games were concerned, simply because of the improvements made in computer hardware. However, credit must also be given to those designers like Bioware and Bethesda (to name just two of the many fine companies out there who make comparable games to the likes of my own goals), who have really done wonders with the software to take advantage of said hardware to make some truly great games.

My point being, when I first started this campaign, I believe a player's expectations from a fan-based module were not too far removed from what was delivered. However, is it possible that as the time has passed, player's expectations of what to expect from such a module have also grown? Now, I am aware that good gaming does not boil down to just visuals and sound. However, in all fairness, the games I am thinking about also contain reasonable/good content too. Can we (as builders) even be able to offer the players a reasonable gaming experience compared to what can be acquired nowadays? I am not saying we cannot do so, but what would make a player pick up a custom module and spend time playing it compared to picking up Skyrim, Dragon Age 3, or one of the many free MMO games and play that instead?

Now, I know there will be some players who have more time and can, perhaps, spend their time playing both types of game, but my question is, why would/do they? What is the attraction to playing a home-made module, which, even if it has some reasonable gameplay, is not going to be able to compare to a "retail" product which has had a professional design team and many more hours put behind it? I know I am probably asking the golden question that everybody would like to know the answer to .... i.e. What makes a good game? However, I ask it anyway, as such feedback is always good for the builder, and helps encourage them along the way.

So, why do you download and play a NWN/NWN2 module compared to any other game that is available? Is it because of the rules used? Multi-player functionality? You have played all the other games already and it was a last resort?

And when you have downloaded such a module, how much time do you give it? At what point do you give up on a game ... or don't you? Do you keep going regardless?

Many Thanks,
Lance.


Bonus VIDEO: A quick demo of some of the new mechanics and GUIs.



Any questions?

[Eguintir Eligard]

Long overdue. My own new campaign topic I hid accidentally and it turns out moderators dont respond so I will have to restart it.

 

As for the question at hand... your last remark was surprisingly accurate. I play player mods as a last resort. There are no true D&D games out there anymore, and none in the near future. If the baldur's gate series was on sequel #7 right now I would not have bother with nwn2. However I don't hold the NWN2 series in nearly as high a regard. Nwn1 was horrible and I totally forgot most of it which is rare for a game, and NWN2 only a little better (post OC). And having played many player works I can say a lot of have been better in fun than the OC. Part of that is the mystery... you never know what you are going to get. Is it horrible and buggy? poorly made? greatly made? Some are even more fun than the publishers campaigns.

 

So am I here by default yes, but I am open to being treated to a hidden surprise also yes.

And I have been.

[andysks]

Hi Lance.

 

I actually liked the OC and the expansions. So I'm not here as a last resort. I enjoy playing with D&D rules, and played and re-played all games available. NWN2 offers a great experience, and modders have proved that they can do what they do great. So I do play them. For the rules used, and because I like the game in general, and because as part of this community I want to see what other people managed to create.

 

One thing I don't enjoy is linear modules. For me, a player should have options in convos to deny quests, evil options as well as good etc. The only reason I will not try a module is because of that. I hate having only one option as a reply in my convos.

 

Now as for the other games, I will play them. Finished Scyrim, finished DA... waiting for the 3rd, hell, I always go back to ToEE every 6 months for another run, and I even play hidden object games sometimes. To be honest, I start a new game the next day I'm done with the previous. It can be any game, or mod.

 

This is one of the reasons that I'm not afraid as to IF anyone will play my work, or yours for the matter when we are done. Because if I'm like that, there has to be more like me.

 

P.S sorry about my english, is pretty late here but I wanted to write something before I forget tomorrow .

[Tchos]

Like Andy, I play many, many different games, in many different genres, even including the hidden object ones he mentions.  I have dozens of games "in progress" at any one time, which cycle out as I finish them.  NWN2 is not a game that is "finished" like many of these other games, and thus there's no reason to stop playing it as long as I enjoy it.  I enjoy it.  It's the gameplay for me, which includes branching dialogue, and the freedom (in modules that offer freedom).  With all the modules available, there's plenty of content to keep me occupied, and the toolset is a game in itself.

[PJ156]

Well this should confuse things for you.. I'm not a fan of branching dialogues ( too much reading kills the pace ) or options as they normally lead to the same outcome or small variation so what's the point ? 

 

Much of what you say rings true for me but this does not. Even a choice that leads to the same destination allows the player to think "what would my PC say". If they only play once then they don't know that there is little difference between one option or another, they can, on the other hand, play "in character" to some degree.

 

Replay ability is perhaps a mute point when I am happy if someone plays it once and enjoys the ride!

 

PJ

[PJ156]

So, why do you download and play a NWN/NWN2 module compared to any other game that is available? Is it because of the rules used? Multi-player functionality? You have played all the other games already and it was a last resort?

 

 

I believe it's because you know what's coming could be great. The game still stands up with time and, in the right hands, it can still deliver a better gaming experience than newer titles. People come back from time to time because they hope what they get will be good.

 

I think this small team are more than capable of delivering a good play experience. Those that know we are here will keep coming back for more.

 

PJ

[GCoyote]

... 

 

We do have something in the toolset that can make this game shine above others and that's the ability to write stories and create companions and npcs that have more to say than some generic crap every time you meet them or ask them something. We can put in different answers at different points in the story, different views on things after events and in that way create an engaging game that will have people interested.

 

...

 

Games have to be fun and people like different things but getting players interested is difficult with a dwindling player base and modern games being a lot more exciting visually, atmospherically and combat wise.. But a good book will always do well.

 

User created content provides a variety that a corporation is unlikely to generate. A game created by a committee might be great or it might only rise to the lowest common denominator of the production team as limited by the project budget. Now does that sound like "FUN"?

 

If you have a story to tell and the patience to cast it in the form of a NWN2 adventure there are people out there who would probably enjoy playing in it whatever little world you can create. I know, I'm one of them.

[andysks]

Make believe is an important thing. As PJ said, the player doesn't know. So if the branches lead to the same outcome, at least they think they have a choice. Or it offers game play and role play by saying something different. For example I might not want to decline a quest by saying "No thanks. Farewell", but be more agressive "Stick your reward where the sun don't shine", or ask for more "Are you sure you can't slip a little gold as well?". It makes me, and my character feel on role.

 

Also, sometimes this is not the case, since I personally try to make almost every side quest to have a couple possible outcomes. The baddie will want to continue doing what he's doing, and if he is the cunning type of person he will offer a counter proposal. Or anything. I know people will most probably play our modules only one time, but I feel I'm also doing this for myself. Not only for the players who might download my work.

 

But I don't know how this is on topic, I'm sorry .  But all the other stuff you said are true. This particular was just a difference in opinion between us .

 

P.S if there are typos here, my firefox bugged out and the explorer doesn't correct me. I'm sorry

[Dann-J]

I too have been working on a module for a couple of years now, however I don't waste time pondering what other people would like to see in it, or even whether anyone will actually play it. I'm creating it for myself to play, and for the fun of figuring out how to do things I've never seen done in the game.

 

The sheer number of class combinations possible for the PC, the different party combinations (there are ten companions available, with only three possible at any one time), multiple ways to complete many of the quests, semi-randomised encounters, and its general sand-box nature mean I could probably play it a hundred times and still not experience every combination of eventualities. Hell - over the last year or so I probably *have* played it a hundred times, mostly for testing purposes (multiple outcomes require multiple testing), but sometimes just for the fun of it.

 

I for one like conversations with multiple responses. It's not a real role playing game if you don't get to shape the story in some way. Even if those multiple responses end up leading to the same thing, at least there's the illusion of a choice. No pen-and-paper D&D game would ever have the DM make all the decisions without any player choices - the DM might as well have played all the roles, while the 'players' just sat and watched. Computerised versions of D&D shouldn't be any different. If I want to see a strictly linear game in action where I can't make any choices, I might as well watch someone else play it for me on YouTube.

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

Thanks all for posting ... I will snip comments for brevity and respond.
 

As for the question at hand... your last remark was surprisingly accurate. I play player mods as a last resort. There are no true D&D games out there anymore, and none in the near future.

And having played many player works I can say a lot of have been better in fun than the OC. Part of that is the mystery... you never know what you are going to get. Is it horrible and buggy? poorly made? greatly made? Some are even more fun than the publishers campaigns.

Hi E.E.

You touch on something close to my own interests ... effectively the D&D rules. I too like to play with these rules and always seem to come back to liking them over many new systems I have tried to use. And I concluded that the main reason is simply that I understand "the odds" and "limits" to what I am trying to achieve. For instance, I understand what a +1 weapon gives me with respect to a percentage chance to hit. When it comes to games like DA (which I do enjoy), I have no idea what adding 72 to attack does. I just know it was bigger than my previous 51 to attack. But, I have no way of comparing different figures of different items to know whether I am gaining an overall benefit or not.

I must admit, I do like to see what other player's have made as well. I often find "gems" of design within them, which encourages my own build. I think, however, my main problem is the "sustained" level of design. i.e. While there are some great parts in a module, I find "content" tends to waver, which can make it hard for me to continue with a mod, and especially if I hit a "bug" or a poor design on top of that. 
 

One thing I don't enjoy is linear modules. For me, a player should have options in convos to deny quests, evil options as well as good etc. The only reason I will not try a module is because of that. I hate having only one option as a reply in my convos.
 
Now as for the other games, I will play them. Finished Scyrim, finished DA... waiting for the 3rd, hell, I always go back to ToEE every 6 months for another run, and I even play hidden object games sometimes. To be honest, I start a new game the next day I'm done with the previous. It can be any game, or mod.
 
This is one of the reasons that I'm not afraid as to IF anyone will play my work, or yours for the matter when we are done. Because if I'm like that, there has to be more like me.

Hi andysks,

Your English is very good ... I did not know it was not your native language.

See my comment above about D&D rules. I enjoy those too.

I believe my views may have changed over the years with respect to linear/sandbox games. I have found that where I once considered many options and an open world to be a great thing, I have now found that I don't like a world to be "too open". The reason being, I tend to lose focus and the main plot feels watered down due to many other options I can get involved in. That said, having options (as you say) is definitely a good thing. This is definitely a point that the builder needs to get the right balance. E.g. I have just finished playing Oblivion (still have Skyrim to go), but found it a little overwhelming at times. On the other hand, I found Fallout 3 better balanced and probably overall, more enjoyable. I am currently playing DA2, and while there are some points that I find a little bland, I still prefer the overall balance of focus of the three games. Trying to get this balance between "open" and "focussed" is one of my biggest challenges for my own mod. i.e. I want to leave the player with choices, but not too many to appear overwhelming. 
 

Like Andy, I play many, many different games, in many different genres, even including the hidden object ones he mentions.  I have dozens of games "in progress" at any one time, which cycle out as I finish them.  NWN2 is not a game that is "finished" like many of these other games, and thus there's no reason to stop playing it as long as I enjoy it.  I enjoy it.  It's the gameplay for me, which includes branching dialogue, and the freedom (in modules that offer freedom).  With all the modules available, there's plenty of content to keep me occupied, and the toolset is a game in itself.

Hi Tchos,

Yes, I too play many different games ... including the Hidden Object ones. My wife and I often compete to see who can find the objects first or the most. I too tend to have more than one game on the go at a time, simply because the game styles differ, and some days I have more concentration than others to deal with the different types. See my comments above about "freedom" in modules.
  

Well this should confuse things for you.. I'm not a fan of branching dialogues ( too much reading kills the pace ) or options as they normally lead to the same outcome or small variation so what's the point ? ... I'd rather have an absorbing linear game than anything else with the roleplay of your character being only in how you deal with certain situations, so the variety of feats, classes and things like that are a definite plus point to this game.
 
Gameplay in NWN2 leaves a lot to be desired it certainly can't hold it's own against most modern games and I think the camera angle has a lot to do with that and I'd much rather have a decent first or third person perspective than looking down on everything like in some sort of tactical game. This also affects atmosphere for example if you're looking down on a creepy cemetery full of fog and a zombie pops up there's far less impact than it jumping out right in front of you.
 
This game also suffers from sticking to rules and combat styles from a game played with dice and paper based on imagination ( I know this could be a teensy weensy bit controversial so advance apologies to all concerned). Rolling a dice is far more exciting than letting a computer do it for you in some little box in the corner of the screen. That history to this game also can restrict expectations of people as many want the same type of thing that has been written in the monster manual or rule set number whatever. Same hit dice on monsters, same saving throws or immunities etc. and all this sort of thing stifles creativity.
 
We can put in different answers at different points in the story, different views on things after events and in that way create an engaging game that will have people interested... There are very few game developers that bother to do that and I know it takes a lot more voice acting but writing wise it's hardly anything but it does make a big difference and brings characters to life. Bioshock Infinite does this very well and I think the companion you get took that game away from being just another shooter but off hand I can't think of any others. Perhaps the Witcher 2 but I'm not so sure there was a lot of same generic babbling going on in that too.
 
Games have to be fun and people like different things but getting players interested is difficult with a dwindling player base and modern games being a lot more exciting visually, atmospherically and combat wise.. But a good book will always do well.

Hi IFMP,

Yu raise a number of good points.

Firstly, I agree with you with respect to some games having "too much text", or what my friend and I call "filler". Now, don't get me wrong, I enjoy backstory and interesting commentaries, but not in quite so much waffle as many do. However, I completely understand why the game designer cannot escape this issue, because some players do get more from this kind of thing than others. Again, I think it is a question of balance, and even presentation. E.g. My friend and I are having another bash at BG, and nowadays (maybe we felt different the first time we played it?) we find the "books" and many NPC "comments" to simply be tedious, boring or superfluous. I must state strongly here again, I do enjoy back story, but I think the context is in what it actually provides the player with. In my opinion, the best game to provide exciting back story without being tedious is System Shock 2. I actually enjoyed and looked forward to finding a log so I could glean a little more information about the events that had occurred. And I think this is a key point ... any books or backstory or even NPC speech needs to relevant to the current situation, or perhaps have some bearing on what the player can do or expect in the game. The bottom line ... does the text make a difference to the player if they read it or not? If it does not, then it can probably be left out.
 
I find the camera angle control frustrating too, as there have been times where something I have considered adding for effect has been abandoned because I cannot ensure what camera the player will be using. Thankfully, the cutscene cameras have helped, but it requires a lot more work than perhaps a simple camera lock function may have provided.

The rules, however, are something I find a positive point. See my comments above. However, I do hear what you say, but I believe the rule (at their core) are more understandable (and therefore enjoyable) than most others I have encountered. As for other rules, I simply add them to the module if need be as House Rules. I must admit though, trying to stick to every detail of the rules is simply self-defeating. I suffered from this at the start (coming from a PnP background), but am managing to escape that bondage as I continue to build my campaign.

Offering different solutions is a difficult one to do ... usually because you don't know the kind of thing your players might consider. Again, this area of design in one that I hope I have improved upon over the years of campaign design. However, having come from a PnP background, which allows more scope for manoeuvre during and dynamic gameplay, trying to think too much on "choices" possible can actually be a bane to a designer as well. I suffered from this for quite some time before deciding that "some choices" are best left unavailable.
 

Even a choice that leads to the same destination allows the player to think "what would my PC say". If they only play once then they don't know that there is little difference between one option or another, they can, on the other hand, play "in character" to some degree. Replay ability is perhaps a mute point when I am happy if someone plays it once and enjoys the ride!

AND ...

I believe it's because you know what's coming could be great. The game still stands up with time and, in the right hands, it can still deliver a better gaming experience than newer titles. People come back from time to time because they hope what they get will be good.

I think this small team are more than capable of delivering a good play experience. Those that know we are here will keep coming back for more. PJ

Hi PJ,

This is an interesting point about conversations, which I have only recently observed. i.e. Giving options that reflect role play comments rather than (perhaps) skill abilities. I initially always considered options were to do more with the PCs abilities rather than character. This actually appears to highlight a different player group or even style of play. A stats v role play game.

I would be interested in what players would prefer (if forced to choose between the two styles), regarding the way conversations are constructed. I have observed in my own design to veer more towards the stats influencing the character choices. However, I would be interested if players would prefer the choices irrespective of their PCs stats? 
 
Your last comment is encouraging. Thanks for that.  
 

User created content provides a variety that a corporation is unlikely to generate. A game created by a committee might be great or it might only rise to the lowest common denominator of the production team as limited by the project budget. Now does that sound like "FUN"?
 
If you have a story to tell and the patience to cast it in the form of a NWN2 adventure there are people out there who would probably enjoy playing in it whatever little world you can create. I know, I'm one of them.

And I thank you for being one of those players who enjoys the smaller works!  
 

I too have been working on a module for a couple of years now, however I don't waste time pondering what other people would like to see in it, or even whether anyone will actually play it. I'm creating it for myself to play, and for the fun of figuring out how to do things I've never seen done in the game.
 
The sheer number of class combinations possible for the PC, the different party combinations (there are ten companions available, with only three possible at any one time), multiple ways to complete many of the quests, semi-randomised encounters, and its general sand-box nature mean I could probably play it a hundred times and still not experience every combination of eventualities. Hell - over the last year or so I probably *have* played it a hundred times, mostly for testing purposes (multiple outcomes require multiple testing), but sometimes just for the fun of it.
 
I for one like conversations with multiple responses. It's not a real role playing game if you don't get to shape the story in some way. Even if those multiple responses end up leading to the same thing, at least there's the illusion of a choice. No pen-and-paper D&D game would ever have the DM make all the decisions without any player choices - the DM might as well have played all the roles, while the 'players' just sat and watched. Computerised versions of D&D shouldn't be any different. If I want to see a strictly linear game in action where I can't make any choices, I might as well watch someone else play it for me on YouTube.

Hi Dann-J,

I agree that just making the campaign is as much fun as anything else, but I do also like to think that one can add ideas that others would like to see in a game as well. For instance, many of the designs we see today have ideas based on other games that have worked. Also, if I have enjoyed making the campaign, I hope others will enjoy it too, so I try to consider what might work for players and what might turn them off. I often learn things about my own likes and dislikes when discussing builds as well.

See above for my comments on conversations and linear v sandbox.

0 ----- 0

Thanks everybody! I will continue to post and respond as I can.

Regards,
Lance.

[rjshae]

I think of the games that I've played that put in PC conversation choices the best was Mass Effect 1 and 2 ( don't know about three because apparently it was a bit of a disaster ) because it gave you short responses to read and decide on then went into detail as the PC spoke them. This meant you didn't have to read all sorts of text then think whether or not that meant something else or would your elf really say that and it kept the pace of the game flowing and saved time in reading so you could get on with the action.

 

This choice system also lead to paragon or renegade points being scored and more options arriving later so if you'd been bad all the time you could get the "where are your puppies I want to burn them" option. The story stayed pretty much the same and none of the choices really mattered in the end but you could have a bit of fun with how your character behaved.

 

This could be done quite easily by jumping a good, bad evil choice onto another PC line in the conversations but it's just extra hassle for the maker.

 

I agree that a ME-style conversation system would be nice. The issue for me becomes how do you replace the player's brief input with the actual canned response?

[Eguintir Eligard]

It's nice to reply to every person, and I encourage such, but quoting everyone's reply is going to make this thread crash my computer 

[rjshae]

Consider yourself unquotable then...

[Eguintir Eligard]

That was for the author and his eight page mega quote post

[rjshae]

That was for the author and his eight page mega quote post

 

Hence, why we quote... or use the '@'. *shrug*

[Eguintir Eligard]

My CPU doesn't object to single quotes

[Lance Botelle]

... conversation choices the best was Mass Effect 1 and 2 ... This choice system also lead to paragon or renegade points being scored and more options arriving later ... you could have a bit of fun with how your character behaved. This could be done quite easily by jumping a good, bad evil choice onto another PC line in the conversations but it's just extra hassle for the maker.

Hi IFMP,

I quite enjoyed the way they did these as well.
 

I agree that a ME-style conversation system would be nice. The issue for me becomes how do you replace the player's brief input with the actual canned response?

I have not given this any real thought. Whether the whole system would need to be changed, I don't know. Perhaps that may be something worth looking into at a later date. EDIT: What IFMP says should be possible. Just means doubling the PC responses.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Lance Botelle]

It's nice to reply to every person, and I encourage such, but quoting everyone's reply is going to make this thread crash my computer 

 
 

That was for the author and his eight page mega quote post

 
 

My CPU doesn't object to single quotes

Whoops!

Sorry ... force of habit.

I'll try to keep the quotes down a bit ....

Cheers,
Lance.

[Tchos]

rjshae.. If you had three possible conversation replies eg. good, bad or who cares then linked each one of them to a different npc line with nothing in it you could continue the conversation on the next line of each which would be the PC node with the players full response.

You could even stick in a global int for types of response and add to it each time a particular style is used giving you the paragon and renegade points then when they're high enough far more outrageous replies could be offered.

 

I added support for that sort of thing, and actually do track responses and attitude in my module, but there are only a couple of places where it has a real effect on the character's disposition toward you, actually changing what's available to you, since it was a fairly late addition and I wanted to get the thing done.

 

It's true that alignment and stats shouldn't be the only factor in limiting response options.  At any one time, a real person may respond in multiple ways with different attitudes to the same stimulus.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Meh it's your thread. I just thought you'd feel bad for starting a fire in my home office.

Did you ever use any of the areas I did in this module?

[Lance Botelle]

Meh it's your thread. I just thought you'd feel bad for starting a fire in my home office.

Did you ever use any of the areas I did in this module?

Hi E.E.

Your two areas are still currently assigned to module 2 .... re the PDF I sent at the time. I have a number of areas that have been designed by others like yourself that I do want to get released as soon as possible. In theory, module 2 should not take anywhere near as long to release as the core code will be in place.

Module 2 also has area designs by HOSA and Hoegbo. Module 3 has new works by Hoegbo and SGK73 prefabs.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Eguintir Eligard]

What about that third area with the custom placeables that was kind of church temple like?