448 replies to this topic

[Lance Botelle]

What about that third area with the custom placeables that was kind of church temple like?

Hi E.E.

Ah, I think I know the one you mean ... It was one that I needed help with for this module, in which case, yes, that one is definitely in this module. Apart from that PDF I put together at the time, I lost track of some of the other area additions. I am reasonably certain of the one you mean, as I recall you added different things that inspired me to write something around what you had done. EDIT: Actually, I just checked that PDF and noticed it was very out of date ... number of areas doubled since then ... and your was one of those added.

So, good news, yes, that one *is* in the first module.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Lance Botelle]

#2 What's The Latest?
 
I often find myself going "two steps forward, and then one step backwards", but thankfully the net result is always a definite forward movement. This time it was to do with my own walk waypoint system. A long while ago, I discovered that the official system was not reliable enough: Creatures would often stall or simply jump a step when supposedly following waypoints. So, I decided I needed to write my own, and thankfully, succeeded. However, another recent update to the rest system in my campaign highlighted a fault with one of the calculations for the waypoint system and I had to spend some time fixing that this week. (At least tracking down the fault is what took the time rather than adding the 0.1 float value to the code that needed it.)

Fixing issues was not the only thing I did this week, however. I can add that I also finished a rather difficult conversation and improved my own encounter system by making better use of the ScriptHidden function.

I also played about fifteen minutes on one of the new areas, testing the creature AI and my combat system that can be switched between real-time and an auto-pause system at the push of a button. It was great fun having the game auto-pause on enemy sighted, switch weapons while paused and target a new enemy prior to un-pausing. After six seconds the game auto-paused again (as my option had requested) and allowed me to re-examine the combat situation to see what I would do next. The settings I was using reminded me of a style something akin to Dragon Age and/or Baldur's Gate. Not surprisingly I suppose, as these two games (along with NWN) have influenced my own preferences in style of combat play. Of course, the campaign also caters for those that prefer to stick to an all real-time experience, which is the default play style anyway.

I have also started to place more of the unusual treasures around the module now. I don't mean what I call the "main treasures", but what are more like "unusual/interest items" treasures. They generally aim to improve either character or equipment. Here is an example of a page of a book of one such unusual find that the PCs may be blessed enough to stumble across.

ABOUT THE SIZE SEEN IN GAME ....



Books will contain information that will help the PCs in some way.

For players who may be interested in playing this campaign, please feel free to give feedback about any of the game systems posted here or on my blog (see signature)... or any other comments you want to raise ... or have any questions about the campaign.

EDIT to show new style "inventory" panel with immediate incorporated "examine" window.

[Eguintir Eligard]

All be it = albeit?

[Lance Botelle]

Hi E.E.

 

Well spotted ... not sure how that got past me.

 

Consider it changed .... Will post new image when done. UPDATE: Done!

 

Cheers,

Lance.

[Eguintir Eligard]

I loved the idea of the books hak but the way you have to enter them all as one giant string variable put me off the concept. Too easy to mess up and way to much guess and testing the formatting.

[Lance Botelle]

Hi E.E.

 

I have "updated/improved" the system since the hak release. My system now uses individual image pages (as above), which can be very easily edited/used as required. For my own campaign, I now use a combination of styles ... Those that use the original strings method (in case the text need to change) and those that use images.

 

Works a treat!

 

You may prefer the new style, which obviously you and others are welcome to use when I finally get this thing released.

 

Cheers,

Lance.

[Tchos]

Are these books, and hence images, the same size as they were when the readable books mod was included in the Halloween mod?  At that time, I found the interface and text too small for something intended to be read in depth.

[Lance Botelle]

Are these books, and hence images, the same size as they were when the readable books mod was included in the Halloween mod?  At that time, I found the interface and text too small for something intended to be read in depth.

Hi Tchos,

That's a hard one for me to answer in some ways ... not because the book size is any different, but because I suppose some of the scaling will be dependant on your screen res. I mean, I use 1920 x 1080 (which I guess most will do), and the Readable Books GUI is set at 800 x 450 pixels. As an example, the above image in the above post looks about the correct size it will appear in game for me (about 13 cm x 24 cm). I am guessing that you will see roughly the same image (as above) in game for your own screen res ... maybe bigger if your screen res is smaller (or smaller if your screen res is higher).

How does the above book screen shot appear to you? Good, bad, ok ... could be bigger/smaller?

Cheers,
Lance.

EDIT: Showing book in screen proportion ... (Edited to show new immediate "examine" window in inventory panel.)

[Tchos]

I use 1920x1080, too.  Well, I suppose your 800x450 book size is not really any different on average than my modified sizes for the NWN1-style and SoZ party chat dialogue boxes (550x800) and the examine window, what we usually use for reading book items (509x700).  Perhaps it's the font that makes the example here more difficult to read than the normal NWN2 text.

[Lance Botelle]

I use 1920x1080, too.  Well, I suppose your 800x450 book size is not really any different on average than my modified sizes for the NWN1-style and SoZ party chat dialogue boxes (550x800) and the examine window, what we usually use for reading book items (509x700).  Perhaps it's the font that makes the example here more difficult to read than the normal NWN2 text.

Don't forget I downgrade the quality of the pic before uploading too.

And re the text ... I decided that it was worth the compromise to have differing "looks" according to the writer. Adds an element of "realism" when trying to read somebody else's writing. Although, I don't always do this for every book, and resort to simpler plain text then as well.

Lance.

[Eguintir Eligard]

I gotta learn this XML crap or at least find it so I can get a bigger cleaner party window. Did you enlarge the graphic and the fonts teechos?

[Tchos]

EE: You can call me Tachyose -- a familiarity I reserve for few!  Yes, I completely replaced the way the standard NWN1-style dialogue box handled its background and replaced it with a larger custom graphic based on the one from SoZ, and enlarged the fonts.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Tea cozy

[Lance Botelle]

I gotta learn this XML crap or at least find it so I can get a bigger cleaner party window. Did you enlarge the graphic and the fonts teechos?

E.E.

Which one is the "party window"?

FYI, I also have incorporated the "examine" window into the inventory panel for immediate/clearer feedback ...

Furthermore, the "normal" examine window, I have resized to width=409 height=600 compared to its original width=309 height=400. My new inventory panel has been widened to 734 from its original 367, which means the incorporated examine section comes in at 367 x 510.

EXAMINE (OC): 309x400
EXAMINE (MINE): 409x600 (*) .... ONLY USED WHEN EXAMINING "CREATURES" AND "PLACEABLES"
EXAMINE (MY INV): 367x510 (*) .... USED WHEN EXAMINING ITEMS IN ANY INVENTORY (LEFT CLICK ANY INV ITEM TO ACTIVATE)

(*) Both bigger than the original version.

[Eguintir Eligard]

The window that comes up for a party chat which is the ONLY one I will use for text in games.I used to sub it for the nwn1 but there is no need to use the nwn1 window ever as I always want there to be an option for others to speak.

[Lance Botelle]

#3 Balance: The Final Blow!

Balancing a game! ... What an issue this can be! After all, one persons tactics may make a game easier to play than somebody else's. Different classes have pros and cons that could affect the game from the very start. Then there is simple chance of course ... one battle may go badly simply because of a run of poor dice rolls ... or be a cakewalk with an opposite run of the dice. The big question is, just how much should we consider scripting a game (for difficulty) where a player is relatively free to move their party wherever they like?

While it is true that in a DM controlled environment ensuring balance is easier to maintain than relying on scripts to control the difficulty levels for PCs, the big question remains just how much tweaking should ever be applied? I guess there are two schools of thought:-

1) FIXED: Do not alter difficulties at all and allow the PCs to get what's coming to them, or ...
2) SCALED: Alter the difficulty to allow for character levels and abilities.

Of course, every builder knows that a good combination of "fixed" versus "scaled" difficulties is the best solution to the problem, but, where do we (or should we) draw the line?

So, guess what I've been up to over the last couple of weeks? Basically, looking at difficulty levels for the PCs according to the different ways they could explore the module. I, of course, know the best path to take that will keep the difficulty levels about right, but I am also acutely aware that there are one or two steps they could make that would place them in a very difficult predicament. My current concern is, I am not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing? After all, while I am all for a "challenge", I am also aware that being "stuck" can be a quick way to frustrate a player (from personal experience).

So, my questions today, to keep in line with my current module updates is, what do you think?

1) Have you experienced a game (or module) that was simply too hard? (Example?)
2) Should a builder always (or never) scale difficulties?
3) What is your preferred style of play? (Relatively linear/guided path or completely open?)

From my own observations, a game that is more linear tends not to encounter these balancing issues, as the player should (in theory) be developing their character at the same rate as the difficulties increase. The "problem" only really comes to light when designing a more open world when the player ventures into a more dangerous region than another. However, what now takes precedence?

4) Should the game adjust to fit the player or should the player get the hint and back off?
5) However, what happens if the player cannot back off for whatever reason? Is the "game reload" an acceptable solution, or should the builder have considered another option for the player?

Too late to turn back ....



"I Think I took a wrong turning!"
http://worldofalthea...final-blow.html

[kevL]

1) Have you experienced a game (or module) that was simply too hard? (Example?)

no. When testing the impossibility adjustor I was surprised how incredibly tough a fight can be, but if I really, really *really* thought about it you can make it through. Ofc most players don't want that level of diff -- at some point even i didn't, it was turning me into a nervous wreck. And this DOES require an option to retreat ... perhaps to craft some extra plusses, or do some casual farming.

corollary: if player is going into a 'no retreat' zone, force an Autosave and don't spoil it while in the no-retreat zone. But that save might be overwritten by another module or a different load ... so it's not failsafe. Perhaps compare char-level to expectation-level and then do a popup if char-level is too low (... and grant extra XP on the sly, according to the difference). Or just do a popup advising player to make a permanent save now because they're going into difficult or no-retreat zone, although that is immersion breaking.

 

 

2) Should a builder always (or never) scale difficulties?

in favor of always scaling. But it's extra effort on the builder.
 

 

3) What is your preferred style of play? (Relatively linear/guided path or completely open?)

open sandbox ( barring no-retreat zones without warning ). But if someone wants to retell Crime & Punishment I'm willing to play either the prostitute or the inspector. But honestly I wouldn't want to be stuck in Raskolnikov's shoes ....
 

 

4) Should the game adjust to fit the player or should the player get the hint and back off?

a bit of both, I suggest more (a) than ( . That keeps the occasional drama of ( higher ...
 

[edit;Lol smileys]

 

5) However, what happens if the player cannot back off for whatever reason? Is the "game reload" an acceptable solution, or should the builder have considered another option for the player?

as above, no-retreat zones are difficult to design fairly. Other than that, Reload is fair play.

[Eguintir Eligard]

It's very simple. If you have an open quest world, generate each one for a certain level and fix it. The players aren't as stupid as we often treat them. They will figure out the general order. There will be more than one quest per level anyway, and even if they are off by a level they can still beat it. They may want to take on a tougher challenge than you provide anyway... And they may also enjoy powering up faster on higher level quests then coming back to steamroll easier ones with their overpowering party. The game gets stale quickly when every encounter is "medium" tough.

If you're going to scale things then you might as well remove levels altogether

[PJ156]

Fixed for me but I have a story led linear module and, as you point out, the scaling comes with level progression.

 

I would say you need both in a sand box. Scaled random encounters or placed exterior battles and fixed set pieces, in dungeons and quest related battles. The quests can be tested so  player does not start something they cannot finish.

 

1) Have you experienced a game (or module) that was simply too hard? (Example?)

 

Not to date I have not, though there have been a few reloads on some which is painful. 

 

2) Should a builder always (or never) scale difficulties?

 

If a player is going to wander into an encounter that they have not been able to prepare for (random or not announced), then, for the sake of the players enjoyment, it should be scaled. If the player has been warned (don't go to the mountains the orcs are tough there), then they need not be scaled.

 

3) What is your preferred style of play? (Relatively linear/guided path or completely open?)

 

Linear, I am not a great fan of sandbox. If a game opens out for a short time allowing multiple ways through or things to do, that's great. But I like to be back on the story path before long.

 

PJ

[PJ156]

 The game gets stale quickly when every encounter is "medium" tough.
 

 

 I concur with EE. It's good to throw in a few easy ones too. Why not throw some dire rats at a lv 10 party. Of course they will die in an orderly fashion but that's the fun of it.

 

It is also the risk with scaling. A lv 10 player must be able to walk the sewers that vexed them at lv 3 with ease. Scaling should be capped me thinks, so those rats don't get a CR of more than say 3 - 4?

 

PJ

[Tchos]

I avoid games with scaled encounters these days.  The Elder Scrolls games and Fallout 3 were enough to sour me on that deathly dull experience with no sense of progression.  Kingdoms of Amalur at least tried to limit it, with minimum and maximum ranges for areas, but when everything is scaled it all starts feeling like Dragonball Z.

[kevL]

unlimited scaling is too much

but I'll generally make 3 levels of a monster; say 7th, 9th, 12th

 

you get the idea

 

ps. those don't include bosses, just stock

[kamal_]

I share tchos dislike of Elder Scrolls scaling. The player never develops a sense of mastery (theres some academic term for this in games). What I tried in Path of Evil was to have creatures within a level range once out in the sandbox, so those ogres in the hills could be from CR 3-7, but would never be weaker/more powerful than that. Also on the OM I gave the player a skillcheck or two on the area entry conversations that would allow them to determine the rough difficulty of an area.... "from the stories told by nearby townsfolk, you estimate the ogres to be not nearly as tough as your group."

This gives the player some roleplay choices and makes the skills valuable, while also allowing the player to avoid stuff that they dont want to bother with or would be too much for them at the time.

[kevL]

(theres some academic term for this in games)

ennui, no wait

... "from the stories told by nearby townsfolk, you estimate the ogres to be not nearly as tough as your group."

that's a good idea,

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

I felt the same "problem" when playing the Elder Scrolls series of feeling as though the monsters scaled with me. I have just started "Kingdoms of Amalur (Reckoning)" and so cannot comment on that a great deal yet, but I have not yet discovered what I would call a "difficult" encounter ... so either they use scaling ... or I have just taken the right path. (Not died yet.)

However, I have another example for you to consider ... What about the possibility of encountering a creature that requires a particular weapon to damage ... and the PCs have not yet found that weapon?

How would you manage a situation like that?

Should the encounter be made "impossible" to occur by the builder? ... What if the player insists on pursuing the path that might make this occur?

Feedback is very useful .... I certainly agree with trying to give a "warning", but what if the warning is set outside the player's gaming knowledge? e.g. The place is "full of weak (read low level) fey" ... A player may think the location is an easy target and try to visit it, not realising that even the easiest of fey requires a certain weapon to affect it. To take this example further, what happens if the player misses the "information" that may have given the clue about the fey being impervious to normal weapons?

Now, a spell caster may still be OK, due to having offensive spells, but a straightforward fighter could be "stuck", and even defeated. What should be done here to ensure a player does not come to a dead-end ... or is this one of those situations when the player should have prepared a better party that included spell casters?

I look forward to hear how you guys would handle such a situation.

Many Thanks,
Lance.