448 replies to this topic

[Eguintir Eligard]

If you are worried about a player making a six person all melee party you are over handling the football at this point. Why even ponder these things? If I was a player here might be a tad offended at how stupid you authors think we are

[Tchos]

If you're not allowing a full party, then my input will not be useful.  A full party can be assumed to have at least one caster in most cases, so I wouldn't make any accommodations for that particular situation.  If it were a foe that could only be harmed by a quest item, that's when I would start taking measures.  Even then, I think the ability to reload could be enough, along with some helpful hints, perhaps.

 

I think you'll find that Kingdoms of Amalur is an exceedingly easy game, and the only way to have a chance of dying is to play on hard mode, fight naked, and never use the Reckoning mode.

[PJ156]

I think it only fair that you give the PC the tools to do the job. The equipment to beat the monster must be present (though not necessarily local) or the creature should offer a way out. I.e a non hostile conversation that could go either way. As the designer I think our task is to entertain and not to win.

 

I have never included such encounters but, again, linear plays makes these decisions easier. The PC will know they are going up against a boss because they form part of the plot.

 

It has always interested me some of the negative feedback I got for the end fight in Caravan Club. I think it relevant to the topic. I got many comments that it was way too hard and unbalanced. In fact the fight was entirely staged, I balanced it very hard because I wanted it that way but I carefully plotted it so that the party were challenged in advance, warned the fight would be hard and were then give time and access to resources (some gifted by npc's) to prepare. I then allowed the PC to approach the fight in a number of ways and nibble at some of the opposition to even the odds. After that, party tactics and preparation made the fight a walk in the park. Poor preparation and execution made it a respawn festival.

 

So I guess my view is that you can make the fight as hard as you like, but give the player access to the resources they need to win it.

[kamal_]

One thing I dislike is the video game trope of being given fire arrows right at the beginning of the troll caves... BG2 did this with the fighter stronghold. There's no point in the special defense of the monster when the player is just given the special way to attack. Unless you make it plot based like "only the Sword of Auros may harm the Gorgon" and aquiring the sword is a quest in itself, but in that case the player is not just handed the special attack.

[kamal_]

In the case of trolls in them thar hills, maybe the local smith has some fire arrows for sale that he proudly mentions to the pc that he knows how to make, possibly complete with story on how he learned to make them. That would be a subtle hint to the player that something like fire arrows might be useful for the pc, without telling the player "hey, this module has stuff you need fire to kill" as blatantly as finding fire arrows as soon as you step into the dungeon.

[Lance Botelle]

Neat responses all!

I laughed when I read the "don't forget your ghost killing sword" sign!

I suppose the best thing is not to worry too much about a player's decision as long as there is at least one way to deal with the problem. I must admit, I also look at the problem as "if I can do it, then so can anybody", because I'm not a great player either.

I think I must also assume a player will play with a balanced party ... or reconsider their party in certain situations to overcome some difficulties, so I will relax a little there.

I'll also get some idea from any beta testing I guess too, so final tweaks can come then.

Cheers all!
Lance.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Lets start a beta test now

[Lance Botelle]

Lets start a beta test now

Hi E.E.

If only I could, I would. However, there are simply too many unfinished sections that stop a player from getting from start to finish. As soon as I have completed all the "joining" sections, I will be requesting beta testers as soon as possible after ... to help me apply the tweaks and polish.

Cheers,
Lance.

[andysks]

Funny this with the special weapon, I am writting a quest like that at the moment. The PC did something to complete another quest, and now a monster is chasing him/her. One that is said to be immortal. Then, you get help. People tell you that knowledge of a weapon might be found somewhere. You have to search for it. Then, the knowledge is given by riddles. The player will have to figure it out... what to do to beat this thing. But I won't just bring the fight on before that. A timer will get set after the riddles, and then when the time is right, the creature will appear somewhere during a world map travel.

 

This method, contradicts the hunt. Why would a creature wait for you to find out how to beat it in order to attack? But it's a game... can't be too realistic. It's impossible. if I brind the creature on, if I set the timer earlier, then the player might not find out about the weapon on time.

 

So all in all, I say that a weapon or clue has to be given. But make it funny, or clever or both. And maybe don't think too much as to if the player will get the hint . If they don't, that why the forums are for. How many times they come and ask kamal about some help on his modules...

 

As for scalling, sorry for the late response. It's I think fit on games supposed to be like that. Like Elder Scrolls. Yes, it gets a bit tiring, but there is no other way there. The world is just huge.

But the way I prefer, and I think EE said the same, is to not scale. And let the player see if a quest is for his level or not. That's why save and load is for, and you can always return there later. At the moment my journal mentions the level range of the quests. I am not certain I will leave it like that for the final release, but it could prove helpful. Otherwise an open world might be confussing. You are good with xml coding... maybe you could figure a way out to make a WoW kind of thing, where easy quests for your level are green, while hard ones that you cannot do at the time are red.

[rjshae]

Funny this with the special weapon, I am writting a quest like that at the moment. The PC did something to complete another quest, and now a monster is chasing him/her. One that is said to be immortal. Then, you get help. People tell you that knowledge of a weapon might be found somewhere. You have to search for it. Then, the knowledge is given by riddles. The player will have to figure it out... what to do to beat this thing. But I won't just bring the fight on before that. A timer will get set after the riddles, and then when the time is right, the creature will appear somewhere during a world map travel.

 

This method, contradicts the hunt. Why would a creature wait for you to find out how to beat it in order to attack? But it's a game... can't be too realistic. It's impossible. if I brind the creature on, if I set the timer earlier, then the player might not find out about the weapon on time.

 

Well, the module could always provide the PC with the means to temporarily conceal themselves from the one hunting it. Like a set of candles that bestow mind blank on the party, or some crafty means of tricking the monster into looking in the wrong place. The player just needs to be made aware that the concealment will only last for a semi-random period of time.

[Lance Botelle]

RE SPECIAL WEAPON ....

OK, I have come up with a two-fold solution. One that is quite subtle (offering a hint) and a more direct one, which may require a reload and avoid for a later time. I am also considering a third (backup) solution, in case the PCs get "lucky" and somehow get into deeper water where things could really get difficult.

It's the old problem of "freedom" to move around and "ability" to cope. I realise now just how sensitive the relationship between DM providing info and the player's knowledge is. At least, I have always been aware of this, but more care has to be taken when scripting it than when playing on the fly like we used to in PnP.

Thanks.
Lance.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Why the candles? Just let the pc run out of the zone of he's not ready and he'll get hunted again

[Lance Botelle]

Why the candles? Just let the pc run out of the zone of he's not ready and he'll get hunted again

That black hole is dangerous - Don't get too close!

i.e. They may not be able to run out again.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Dann-J]

I have several unusual Monster Manual creatures in a module I'm working on, many of which have abilities and immunities that won't be commonly known. I created a series of Monster Lore scrolls that can be found scattered about the place, which specifically mention their strengths and weaknesses. Each scroll has two of the same creature type in them (undead, magical beast, ooze, etc), and to encourage players to hang onto them I gave them item properties that provide +1 to attack verses that particular racial type. So far I've created volumes one to five, covering ten unusual monsters.

 

Players might still encounter those creatures without having read the relevant Monster Lore scroll, and may well have a hard time defeating them unless they just happen to have the right weapon material type or use the right elemental damage type against them. That's the risk adventurers take when they tackle something new. I might make collecting all Monster Lore volumes a mini quest, to give players even more reason to find them.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Make a development log Danny

[PJ156]

 I might make collecting all Monster Lore volumes a mini quest, to give players even more reason to find them.

 

Or not find them, as the case may be.

 

PJ

[Lance Botelle]

I have several unusual Monster Manual creatures in a module I'm working on, many of which have abilities and immunities that won't be commonly known. I created a series of Monster Lore scrolls that can be found scattered about the place ... <SNIP>

Hi Dann,

I have done something "similar" with having a "Bestiary" update when the players meet a new creature ... or read about one ... or learn something new about one in some way. The Bestiary is attached as a TAB to the journal:-

http://worldofalthea...tle-things.html

My fear was that even with this knowledge, it may be possible to have then head into a difficult situation. However, as you and others point out ... that really is the risk you take as an adventurer I suppose.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Eguintir Eligard]

If you are really worried about it stead of spending all this time trying to deal with it dont make a monster like that?

[kamal_]

Suprise is good, breaking player expectations is bad.

If your world has a creature called a "troll", then players will expect it to regenerate and need fire/acid to kill because that's what players have been conditioned to think. If a troll in your world is not that and needs ice to kill, you need to let the player know that because the pc knows that.

If you call a creature that uses the troll creature model an "al harkon", then it is fine because the player and pc knows it is not a "troll". For this 'not a troll', you can surprise the player with it's abilities because the player knows it is not a troll.

An example would be werewolf versus loup garoux. They are visually similar and share the wolf type traits but since you make the differentiation they can have different abilities.

[Dann-J]

Make a development log Danny

 

Who is 'Danny'?

[Dann-J]

The books you needed to buy in The Witcher to enable you to deal with monsters were a pain in the arse so be careful... Maybe some people liked them I don't know but I thought they were just a hassle and figured a witcher should know what he's up against as part of basic training. A bit like adventurers that live in a land full of monsters, they must've heard something at some point in a tavern or around a camp fire etc.

 

That particular Witcher had a bad case of amnesia.

[Dann-J]

An example would be werewolf versus loup garoux. They are visually similar and share the wolf type traits but since you make the differentiation they can have different abilities.

 

Indeed. I have both werewolves and wolfweres in my current module. Attacking a wolfwere with a silver weapon would be an easy mistake to make.

 

Now that I think of it, that would make a good Volume Six of my Monster Lore series (shapeshifters).