31 réponses à ce sujet

[Arkalezth]

Not good why? It's just a different approach. Bard-based ATs may lose some high level songs, but they work fine and you get spells and sneak attack. Not necessarily better or worse than wizard based; it depends on the build. I generally find AT a more useful class pre-epic, though.

[Thorsson64]

Actually, a Rogue 1/Bard with Able Learner is a great idea. You get trapfinding and can increase those skills even more with Heroism or Bardic Inspirations.

It's not good when you dilute the levels of Rogue and Bard too much together or try going into Arcane Trickster with them.
Otherwise, a Rogue 1/Bard is excellent, very versatile and the general support build that does everything good but not great.

 

What you mean here is that Bard is great. A 1 level dip into Rogue is OK if you really want Rogue Skills. A 2 level dip at least gets you Evasion and Expose Weakness. Still, if you don't need to disable traps or pick the most difficult locks, there are better choices.

[Thorsson64]

Not good why? It's just a different approach. Bard-based ATs may lose some high level songs, but they work fine and you get spells and sneak attack. Not necessarily better or worse than wizard based; it depends on the build. I generally find AT a more useful class pre-epic, though.

 

Well you made about the only decent one there is, and even then you have to admit it has as many Cons as Pros. Definitely not the best build for the Campaigns...

[Luminus]

Not good why? It's just a different approach. Bard-based ATs may lose some high level songs, but they work fine and you get spells and sneak attack. Not necessarily better or worse than wizard based; it depends on the build. I generally find AT a more useful class pre-epic, though.

It's not good because you get low BAB with AT, while both Rogue and Bard have medium. And less skill points than both Bard and Rogue (4 + Int).
You only advance spells when Inspirations and songs are a big part of the Bard, especially Inspirations. The spells are a nice bonus.

It's worse than a Wizard based multi because the Wizard doesn't lose anything from going into AT except a couple of feats and 3 caster levels. The Wizard's spellbook is everything.
And since the Wizard is INT based compared to the Bard, you get even more skills and many are INT based (Search, Disable Device, Spellcraft etc).
Also, since you get more and better spells than the Bard, you can use them to augment your Rogue side even more.

Persistent Haste, Greater Magic Weapon to basically replace Inspire Courage, other persistent buffs, as well as summons to flank for you and blasting spells on top.

 

What you mean here is that Bard is great. A 1 level dip into Rogue is OK if you really want Rogue Skills. A 2 level dip at least gets you Evasion and Expose Weakness. Still, if you don't need to disable traps or pick the most difficult locks, there are better choices.

I'm saying that the Bard is great but with a Rogue1/ Bard and Able Learner you basically don't need another Rogue and the Bard can take care of the traps, or locks.
A Dex based Bard with a Rogue dip, gets Expose Weakness true.
Of course there might be better choices, I'm saying that this dip saves you a Rogue NPC and is probably better at it thanks to Greater Heroism and Inspire Competence.

And that works for other modules or PWs, except the OC. If you don't want Neeshka is a very valid multiclass to disable traps and open locks without breaking items inside or spamming the Knock spell.

No it's not optimized but it's more versatile than a pure Bard. And Bards are all about versatility.

[Luminus]

*Double Post*

Also, I remember in Storm of Zehir where a Rogue of mine couldn't disable a trap and had the Bard go with him and help him with Heroism and Inspire Competeness.

A Rogue dip/Bard could have done those solo. And you don't miss much of the Bard stuff. You do if you go with Arcane Trickster.

[Arkalezth]

I've never claimed that bard/ATs don't have their drawbacks (it's actually the first thing I said), but they're perfectly viable, as is AT on a wizard for something else than more skill points (BTW, you need at least 3 rogue levels or equivalent to qualify, so it's not "for free"). A build doesn't need to be the best in the world in order to be viable and effective. It's just different. You may not like them, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean they're -bad-.

 

I also said that I consider AT a better class pre-epic. Here's an example. Here's another one. What do you lose? +1 to inspirations? Big deal. Worse Curse Song and perhaps Song of Heroism and Legionnaire's March? Okay, those are good, but on the other hand, you gain sneak attack. And I don't consider bard spells an extra, but a very important part of the class. As for the AB numbers, look at the builds I linked, factor in things like Greater Heroism and Inspire Courage, and then tell me if that's a low AB for a sneaker (hint: it's not).

 

There's a link to a wizard/AT build in the comments of the one Thorsson linked. It's probably a bit better, as its AB is not much lower and it gets high level spells on top.

 

A bard with a rogue dip is good and I've never said otherwise. I'm merely responding to the "OMG Bard/ATs are so horrible" comment.

[Thorsson64]

A lot of builds that work well to level 20, work less well (in comparison) when looking at 30. An Epic Bard that doesn't get Song of Heroism looks a bit bereft; similarly an Epic Rogue that doesn't get Epic Precision & Epic Dodge (and Expose Weakness & PTWF for that matter). Mixing the levels too much, or adding 10 level PrCs like AT, usually end up with you losing out on these great Epic Feats.

 

Dips are another matter; Bards can make great use of dips. Rogues rather less so, because they also need HiPS (or very good Feint/Bluff at the least) in addition to all the above.