88 réponses à ce sujet

[cap and gown]

Looking at all the problems with the Reaper plot and how it is eventually resolved, it seems to me the core of the problems with the trilogy go all the way back to ME1 when the writer tried to turn the main antagonist into Cthulhu, a creature that cannot be defeated. Except, the whole point of ME1 and the trilogy is to defeat said undefeatable creatures. They were meant to awe us by how ancient they were (1 billion years), how large (2 kilometers long), and how powerful. Rather than feeling awe upon meeting Sovereign, however, all I felt was contempt. The writer had written a round hole through which we were supposed to shove a square peg: defeating the undefeatable; stopping the unstoppable. An enemy who did what it did because EVIL!, no explanation required. Except it did require an explanation. So in the end all we got was space magic and gobbledy-******.

 

The Collectors, OTOH, while ostensibly tied into the Reaper plot, were never portrayed as an unstoppable force. They were something that could be dealt with by conventional, familiar means. Their motivation may have been tied in with the Reapers, but they could have easily been rewritten to have an independent existence, with motivations of their own, such as conducting genetic experiments so as to build a super-biotic. They posed a huge and present risk, but not one that was only insurmountable through space-magic. Even their size, about the same as that of a human being, was something that made them more real than the 2 kilometer long space robots that Ashley felt made her useless. Ashley would have fit right in fighting the Collectors. (In the end, it turns out that Shepard could use an assault rifle to defeat Sovereign, but that was only because of space-magic.)

 

It is my hope that in the next Mass Effect the writers will not try to overawe us with size, age, numbers, or whatever. I am tired of them going for an emotional impact with statistics that sound amazing, but that only end up coming across as not credible. Give us an enemy that the game mechanics will allow us to defeat as part of the game, and not some cut-scene mumbo-jumbo. (This is a game, after all.) Give them a motivation that is understandable. Make the debates about the game focus around the meaning of the story, not all its plot holes and attempts to fill them in. In short, give us an enemy and a story that makes sense.

 

[Excella Gionne]

The Collectors may have been better, but they were an enemy that the story could have done without. I really feel like the entire existence of the Collectors were tied to an unused story plot that was never advanced upon any further than ME2.

[Probe Away]

The Collectors may have been better, but they were an enemy that the story could have done without. I really feel like the entire existence of the Collectors were tied to an unused story plot that was never advanced upon any further than ME2.

 

Ah, but what a fun unused story plot it was!

[n7stormreaver]

It is my hope that in the next Mass Effect the writers will not try to overawe us with size, age, numbers, or whatever. I am tired of them going for an emotional impact with statistics that sound amazing, but that only end up coming across as not credible. Give us an enemy that the game mechanics will allow us to defeat as part of the game, and not some cut-scene mumbo-jumbo. (This is a game, after all.) Give them a motivation that is understandable. Make the debates about the game focus around the meaning of the story, not all its plot holes and attempts to fill them in. In short, give us an enemy and a story that makes sense.

 

Otherwise, fighting human-sized enemies through conventional means is overused, i would rather prefer defeating Reapers, just not through cutscenes. There are different levels of OP and Reapers are too OP, balance must be preserved. 

 

Also sci-fi writers have no sense of scale or logic, nothing new here. 

[ZipZap2000]

In terms of how much I enjoyed playing 'against' them I think the reaper ground forces were a lot better to fight. As an overall enemy though I think I preferred the collectors and here's why.

 

1. The opening moments of the suicide mission, this is probably the best designed final run I've played in a video game. The music the cut scenes and the variables the elements of personal revenge and glory turn it into a heart pounding experience and seeing the once invulnerable collector ship fall victim to the thanix cannon is wonderfully done.

 

2. Atmosphere and discovery. Finding out those creepy bug things are enslaved genetically altered Protheans bent to the will of Harbinger was a masterstroke I genuinely felt sorry for them at that point. Which allowed me to not only relate to the 'enemy' but also gives deeper meaning to the role of Shepard adding extra depth without dragging the story out or compromising the players impression of who and what their Shepard is.

 

3. Harbinger is a clearly defined recognisable enemy reminding you of exactly what's at stake. You are fighting in a proxy war of sorts only the side you are fighting for remains uncommitted to the actual conflict (Shades of early Syria civil war here) which is a situation that has a real resemblance to the world we live in, so there's no need to actually suspend disbelief once this is established.

 

4. Harbinger being as defined and recognisable as he is and as powerful as he is, is himself never actually seen and is defeated without a physical confrontation. That one thing alone actually makes the Collectors the better enemy overall, because they show Harbinger to in fact be fallible (despite what he himself might say) they can be defeated and they can be defeated without having to actually fight them. In those final moments when you flee the collector base you see Harbinger for what he is, Harbinger see's himself for what he is and for myself as a player I felt like I'd performed a miracle by pulling a sneaky on an invincible rolling death machine.

 

Where the reapers as a group are concerned I'd say the opposite of the above points is mostly true.

[AlanC9]

I never saw the Reapers as Cthulhu in the first place. How many of you folks actually did?

[SporkFu]

So we'd have no reapers at all? 

 

I dunno how I feel about that, to be honest. When I first played Me1, and shep, Anderson and Nihlus watched the the Eden Prime attack on the vidscreen as the Normandy raced to get there. Anderson said, "reverse and hold at 38.5" and I saw this giant menacing cthulhu-looking ship, then the camera cut to Nihlus' face and the big bad ass alien spectre's only reaction was one little mandible twitch... hell, I couldn't wait to get planetside and check it out. 

[Jorji Costava]

I never saw the Reapers as Cthulhu in the first place. How many of you folks actually did?

 

Well, some of the elements of Cthulhu were in place. There's the overall appearance of the things, which suggests a sort of tentacled monster in line with standard Lovecraftian imagery. There's also the way in which indoctrination slowly drives its victims mad, invoking the familiar Lovecraftian trope of contact with the unknowable driving one to insanity. But on the other hand, the developers never really committed to the idea: My familiarity with Lovecraft's corpus isn't very good, but I don't remember Cthulhu ever giving us lectures on how much we suck, or providing us with anything as unintentionally comical as Harbinger's memes.

 

Returning to the original topic, I agree with the general sentiment that the Reapers had all sorts of problems as villains, but I don't know if something like the Collectors are the solution; if we're going for a smaller-scale story, I think a better route would be to go with a more personal villain: someone who could hold a grudge against the PC, betray the PC, etc. In short, someone who could do all the things to the PC that the Collectors and Reapers could never do. It's not necessarily new territory for Bioware (i.e. Malak, Master Li, etc.), but it does solve a lot of the problems associated with overpowered villains while making space for a compelling narrative within the confines of story significantly smaller than the Reaper war.

[Larry-3]

Mass Effect would have been a thousand times better if the Reapers were never apart of the story. Keep the dark tones that 2 had but make the Collectors a much greater threat and have them be the main evil in the story. They could have indoctrination technology, and rewritten DNA; just a different back story.

Mass Effect 1: Collectors attack Edan Prime
Mass Effect 2: same story with some changes
Mass Effect 3: thousands of Collectors attack Earth and around the galaxy simultaneously forcing people to unite.

In all the Mass Effect games, 2 stands out. To be honest I feel like I am playing an entirely different game because it feels so different from 1 and 3. The story, the atmosphere, the places you visit all had a certain appeal to me. I love the neo-noir cities, the dim and dark environments, the fact that I am no longer in the military and am now a mercenary.

I went way off topic. Yes the Collectors were a more interesting enemy to fight. The Reapers were annoying.

[Vazgen]

"Reapers are alien, unknown..." The Reapers are created specifically in such way that the player can't relate to them. The only thought that ever comes when seeing a Reaper is to destroy it. I'm almost sure that we'll get a much more relatable protagonist in ME:Next, maybe some charismatic individual aka TIM who is also very good at fighting (like Bane )
Collectors never seemed as a real threat to me. They were too predictable and too weak to look the part. Eclipse mercs were tougher. Also, they used husks alongside them and had Harbringer possess troopers, both of which changed the perspective back to the Reapers.
If I were to pick another main villain faction I'd choose Cerberus. We would've gradually uncovered their locations, resources, corruption in the highest echelons of power. ME2 would not've been working for them but rather a bridge to smooth the transition between the small splinter group in ME1 and galactic power in ME3. Shepard's death would've also been unnecessary.

[Farangbaa]

ME1 was about stopping the Reapers from coming at all, not destroying them.

 

*pet peeve*

[Valmar]

Mass Effect would have been a thousand times better if the Reapers were never apart of the story. Keep the dark tones that 2 had but make the Collectors a much greater threat and have them be the main evil in the story. They could have indoctrination technology, and rewritten DNA; just a different back story.

Mass Effect 1: Collectors attack Edan Prime
Mass Effect 2: same story with some changes
Mass Effect 3: thousands of Collectors attack Earth and around the galaxy simultaneously forcing people to unite.

In all the Mass Effect games, 2 stands out. To be honest I feel like I am playing an entirely different game because it feels so different from 1 and 3. The story, the atmosphere, the places you visit all had a certain appeal to me. I love the neo-noir cities, the dim and dark environments, the fact that I am no longer in the military and am now a mercenary.

I went way off topic. Yes the Collectors were a more interesting enemy to fight. The Reapers were annoying.

 

Funny thing is that I've never heard of removing reapers completely. Yay for new perspective. I actually rather like the sound of it. That being said I did like the reaper's in the first two games. It's only the third one that ruined them for me. They went from being these unknowable gods of destruction... to just a bunch of tools that can be controlled. I used to find Sovereign and Harbinger rather intimidating. Now that I know the reapers are just a bunch of star kid toys... meh. They're not independent and they're not each a nation. They're nothing more than tools, used to fulfill the purpose of some ancient AI.

[KaiserShep]

Personally I didn't find the Collectors to be any more interesting than the reapers. They were just another creature force that served as drones for a smack-talking killbot, and the threat they apparently posed was not portrayed as convincingly as I would've liked. I mean, one little frigate with a small team was able to take out one of their ships and the entire base, with or without any upgrades. I'd like a more down-to-earth type of villain, though BioWare can get pretty heavy-handed with its enemies, especially in Mass Effect, where every mercenary or corporate leader who doesn't bow to the protagonist is wearing a fur coat made of puppies and clubs baby seals.

[Probe Away]

ME1 was about stopping the Reapers from coming at all, not destroying them.

*pet peeve*

Yeah, this probably annoyed me most about the trilogy. You spent the first 2 games thwarting the Reapers' attempts to return from dark space, then arrival and ME3 made that redundant. They return anyway and no one is prepared.

Looks like they didn't need the citadel or the collectors after all....

[Darius M.]

While I agree in hoping that the reapers stay dead for ME4, I would heartily disagree that the collectors made a better enemy than the reapers for 4 major reasons.

 

1. Even if you're not a big fan of the admittedly apparent "wow" factor that Bioware was going for with the reapers, I give them credit because they had to come up with SOME type of enemy that could threaten the entirety of the lore they created. The reapers were the only force that could stand up to the Turians, Asari, Salarians, and all the other races; all of whom have been space-worthy for thousands of years and have MASSIVE military capabilities.

 

2. I don't even think the collectors are that great an enemy. They are a distinctly HUMAN problem that existed for ONE game. They are taken down by one elite squad financed by a black ops terrorist organization. We didn't even need the official Alliance military to take care of them. The collectors did nothing to advance the plot, did nothing help the reapers return from dark space, didn't threaten any of the main lore, and cherrypicked which sparsely populated perimeter colonies to hit. (Hell, they even failed at that...twice). I feel like if they had tried that **** on ANY Turian, Batarian, etc. colony, any race with a real space presence would've obliterated any trace of them.

 

3. I personally loved the idea of going against (what felt like) Gods made manifest. Every time I would look at the horizon (or above me) and see this enormous embodiment of destruction, I really felt the desperation of this war, which is something I as a player really wanted from this series.

 

4: The thing is that worries me is that several posters here have stated that they wanted more of the Collectors, or some "down to earth" enemy.

 

OP: "They were something that could be dealt with by conventional, familiar means. Their motivation may have been tied in with the reapers, but they could have easily been rewritten to have an independent existence, with motivations of their own, such as conducting genetic experiments so as to build a super biotic."

 

Dude, we already got this... just replace the title COLLECTORS with CERBERUS. There's already too much time spent dealing with these clowns when we should be focusing on the reapers.

[SporkFu]

What if Sovereign really was a geth construct, the geth were bent on taking over the galaxy when they attacked Eden Prime, and they had spent the last 300 years constructing a massive invasion force? Maybe instead of warning visions about the reapers, the beacon contained details plans about the citadel and the relay network... a means of replicating relay technology and controlling the existing technology, and that's what the geth were after?  

[Valmar]

Yeah, this probably annoyed me most about the trilogy. You spent the first 2 games thwarting the Reapers' attempts to return from dark space, then arrival and ME3 made that redundant. They return anyway and no one is prepared.

Looks like they didn't need the citadel or the collectors after all....

 

Actually it is the lack of the citadel that resulted in their defeat. Taking over the citadel is a HUGE deal for the reapers. After they take it over they isolate everyone by taking over the relays then they attack them world-by-world, system-by-system. The races would NOT be able to join together or work together like they do in ME3. They would all be stuck in their own system to be taken out on the reaper's whim.

[Excella Gionne]

They had big domes that made it easy to headshot them. Clearly, Protheans are flawed.

[SporkFu]

They had big domes that made it easy to headshot them. Clearly, Protheans are flawed.

Javik: In my cycle it wasn't considered a headshot unless you got all four eyes.

[Excella Gionne]

Javik: In my cycle it wasn't considered a headshot unless you got all four eyes.

All Sniper Rifles are 4 shots, 'cause 4 = 1.

 

"Excuses, excuses."

[ImaginaryMatter]

I always thought of the Reapers a failure in execution not concept.

[Probe Away]

Actually it is the lack of the citadel that resulted in their defeat. Taking over the citadel is a HUGE deal for the reapers. After they take it over they isolate everyone by taking over the relays then they attack them world-by-world, system-by-system. The races would NOT be able to join together or work together like they do in ME3. They would all be stuck in their own system to be taken out on the reaper's whim.

That wasn't my point. Sovereign was trying to manually open the citadel relay to dark space so that the reapers could return. The Collectors tried to construct a new reaper to do the same thing. BW then decided that the Reapers didn't need that relay in order to return - 2.5 years later they just arrived by FTL anyway. In that sense, what you do in the first couple of games is somewhat redundant.

I'm not arguing that the Citadel wasn't of strategic significance, although that begs the question: if it's so important and allows them to control the mass relays, why didn't they go straight for it when they finally arrived? I guess because that would have made ME3 less fun to play.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

ME1 was about stopping the Reapers from coming at all, not destroying them.

 

*pet peeve*

 

Because they couldn't be destroyed, that's why.

[themikefest]

Javik: In my cycle it wasn't considered a headshot unless you got all four eyes.

Drink it or I'll blind you one eye at a time

[cap and gown]

 I mean, one little frigate with a small team was able to take out one of their ships and the entire base, with or without any upgrades.

 

I'll have you know that "one little frigate" is worth more than two entire Alliance fleets, as long as you upgrade it and hold a party for the crew.