88 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Before I could weigh in on what was needed for a better villain, I think it would have helped had ME been a bit more clear on what sort of story it wanted to be. It genre-shifted enough in it's focus and style that it could just as removed or replaced any particular element or three and restructured the entire trilogy accordingly. I feel ME tried for a couple different narratives across it's run, and they didn't all work together that well because they just kept being picked up and dropped without much linkage.

[Dabrikishaw]

Before I could weigh in on what was needed for a better villain, I think it would have helped had ME been a bit more clear on what sort of story it wanted to be. It genre-shifted enough in it's focus and style that it could just as removed or replaced any particular element or three and restructured the entire trilogy accordingly. I feel ME tried for a couple different narratives across it's run, and they didn't all work together that well because they just kept being picked up and dropped without much linkage.

Agreed. All 3 games felt like different genres when put next to each other, so some narrative collapse was bound to happen.

[Valmar]

That wasn't my point. Sovereign was trying to manually open the citadel relay to dark space so that the reapers could return. The Collectors tried to construct a new reaper to do the same thing. BW then decided that the Reapers didn't need that relay in order to return - 2.5 years later they just arrived by FTL anyway. In that sense, what you do in the first couple of games is somewhat redundant.

I'm not arguing that the Citadel wasn't of strategic significance, although that begs the question: if it's so important and allows them to control the mass relays, why didn't they go straight for it when they finally arrived? I guess because that would have made ME3 less fun to play.

 

What did the collector's construction of a reaper have to do with their return? Their motives were never made beyond just wanting to make a human reaper. Something they still strive towards in ME3. I'm not convinced it had anything to do with their return.

 

Also the reason the reapers don't just dash to the relay at least in the narrative seems to be because they'd have to go through a bunch of different relays first. I'm not saying it makes perfect sense but it does try to explain it. The reason Shepard destroys the relay is because it was an alpha relay that linked up to all other relays. Form there they could all jump right into Citadel space through the relay. Now they have to take the detour route.

 

Again, not saying its perfect but it did try to give some excuse.

[Dean_the_Young]

What did the collector's construction of a reaper have to do with their return? Their motives were never made beyond just wanting to make a human reaper. Something they still strive towards in ME3. I'm not convinced it had anything to do with their return.

 

I couldn't hope to find the source now, but I believe the Devs once confirmed that this was NOT the case- that the Reapers were already in motion and flying to the galaxy during the events of ME2.

 

Of course, either way makes the Collector subplot nonsense. If the Collectors weren't involved in a plan to try the Citadel capture, then having them start the harvesting of irrelevant human colonies was just showing their hand too early and for no actual gain- Earth still would have needed to be captured for the Human Reaper to be completed, and the Collectors still would have needed the Reaper armada to credibly do that. Instead it came with real costs, such as the collection of a Reaper IFF and capture of Reaper technology. On the other hand, if the Reapers were waiting on a Collector plot to capture the Citadel... why bother, when they were less than a year away? And when the only reason a decapitation strike might have succeeded was because of Council incompetence and disbelief? Delaying a one year trip for two years while depending on the Council to actually be ignoring the threat would be, in a word, silly.

 

The Collectors would have made far, far more sense as an agitator faction seeking to divide the galaxy against itself in preparation for the Reaper invasion. Instead of human colony abductions, they should have had a hand in provoking the Geth-Quarian conflict, been trying to trade a genophage cure in exchange for a new Krogan rebellion, using the Alpha Relay incident to start the lingering Human-Batarian conflict, trigger a Council-Terminus War, and so on. Shepard's mission would have been trying to force a galactic coalition and opposing the sabotage of galactic unity.

 

 

Also the reason the reapers don't just dash to the relay at least in the narrative seems to be because they'd have to go through a bunch of different relays first. I'm not saying it makes perfect sense but it does try to explain it. The reason Shepard destroys the relay is because it was an alpha relay that linked up to all other relays. Form there they could all jump right into Citadel space through the relay. Now they have to take the detour route.

 

Again, not saying its perfect but it did try to give some excuse.

 

Basically, the Reapers are selectively idiots who don't bother with redundancy for their most important plans.

 

ME1 always struggled with that one, really.

[ZipZap2000]

My interpretation was that The Human Reaper was being designed for Shepard not the citadel, they wanted his body and his genetic material to make him the avatar of humanity and possibly to make him the new sovereign. At that point in the franchise the story was going in a completely different direction and humanity was going to be 'special' with Shepard being the one to make the reapers realise that, evidenced by Sheps sudden move from super soldier to infallible warrior god breathing righteous fire throughout the galaxy.

 

I also think this is the inspiration for Shepalyst he would have become another reaper like sovereign or harbinger possibly at some point they might also have been thinking about making Shepard the catalyst. Which in hindsight would have made a lot more sense.

[Valmar]

I couldn't hope to find the source now, but I believe the Devs once confirmed that this was NOT the case- that the Reapers were already in motion and flying to the galaxy during the events of ME2

 

How does that confirm that the collector's building a human reaper had anything to do with their return?

 

 

 

Of course, either way makes the Collector subplot nonsense. If the Collectors weren't involved in a plan to try the Citadel capture, then having them start the harvesting of irrelevant human colonies was just showing their hand too early and for no actual gain- Earth still would have needed to be captured for the Human Reaper to be completed, and the Collectors still would have needed the Reaper armada to credibly do that. Instead it came with real costs, such as the collection of a Reaper IFF and capture of Reaper technology. On the other hand, if the Reapers were waiting on a Collector plot to capture the Citadel... why bother, when they were less than a year away? And when the only reason a decapitation strike might have succeeded was because of Council incompetence and disbelief? Delaying a one year trip for two years while depending on the Council to actually be ignoring the threat would be, in a word, silly.

 

 

Earth would not need to be captured for the human reaper to be completed. Though it is very unlikely that they would be able to finish it by time the reapers got there. EDI said the reaper needed a few million more to be complete. They could get that from other colonies other than Earth. Earth's population is in multiple billions so that would be pretty overkill.

 

I still see no reason to think the collectors were there for anything more than just preparing the reaper to speed up the human harvest. Do the devs say they actually intended to strike earth BEFORE the reapers get there? They seem to just be laying down the ground work for the next reaper.

 

The Collectors would have made far, far more sense as an agitator faction seeking to divide the galaxy against itself in preparation for the Reaper invasion. Instead of human colony abductions, they should have had a hand in provoking the Geth-Quarian conflict, been trying to trade a genophage cure in exchange for a new Krogan rebellion, using the Alpha Relay incident to start the lingering Human-Batarian conflict, trigger a Council-Terminus War, and so on. Shepard's mission would have been trying to force a galactic coalition and opposing the sabotage of galactic unity.

 

I agree, that would had made a lot more sense and give the collector's more significance.

 

 

Basically, the Reapers are selectively idiots who don't bother with redundancy for their most important plans.

 

In all fairness the reapers have been operating for countless years without a hiccup. Some arrogance is to be expected and deserved. The prothean's are the ones who really ruined everything. Losing the citadel had to make them change tactics. The collectors wouldn't even need to be secretive or hidden if the reaper plan played out the way it always does. At least they put the collectors to some purpose instead of just having them wait on standby for the reapers to get there.

 

 

[Dean_the_Young]

How does that confirm that the collector's building a human reaper had anything to do with their return?

 

 

If the Reapers were already in transit during the period of the Collector abductions, then the Human Reaper would not have been able to repeat the Sovereign plan of using the Citadel relay as the entry point. The Reapers had already left the counter-Citadel relay by then, so even if the Collectors opened the Citadel Relay there wouldn't be any Reapers in that part of Dark Space to go through it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Earth would not need to be captured for the human reaper to be completed. Though it is very unlikely that they would be able to finish it by time the reapers got there. EDI said the reaper needed a few million more to be complete. They could get that from other colonies other than Earth. Earth's population is in multiple billions so that would be pretty overkill.

 

 

 

EDI doesn't claim that- she gives no firm number as to how many other people will be needed, and disclaims any certainty of measure. We do, however, get the narrative impetus of Earth as a necessary target from the squadmates during the Collector Cruiser mission (based on the capacity of the Collector Cruiser), as well as the supporting evidence from the Reaper's own policies in ME3 (including choosing to use their first strike opportunity to capture Earth rather than take other, greater, Citadel powers by surprise).

 

Given the Reaper designs for processing Humans of earth is described in the ME3-lore as a years/decades long process, and 'overkill' is hardly that for their next Dreadnaught. More to the point, once the Reapers capture Earth all the other Human colonies combined are irrelevant- there's no point in grabbing them, because all the human colonies combined are in the low tens of millions at best.

 

 

 

 

 

I still see no reason to think the collectors were there for anything more than just preparing the reaper to speed up the human harvest. Do the devs say they actually intended to strike earth BEFORE the reapers get there? They seem to just be laying down the ground work for the next reaper.

 

 

That's why it's stupid- there's no advantage to starting the ground work for the next Reaper, because there's no time limit for the Reaper efforts and the Human Reaper (and the Terminus abductees) provide no unique advantage.

 

There's nothing suggesting the Collectors were able, let alone capable, of striking Earth before the Reapers get there- only that striking Earth was their intent. Since the Collectors were not advancing the Reaper invasion schedule, and lacked a credible ability to do an abduction on their own, the only plausible way for the Collectors to get abductees from Earth would have been after the Reaper invasion- at which point, there's no gain to have done any other abductions.

 

 

 

In all fairness the reapers have been operating for countless years without a hiccup. Some arrogance is to be expected and deserved. The prothean's are the ones who really ruined everything. Losing the citadel had to make them change tactics. The collectors wouldn't even need to be secretive or hidden if the reaper plan played out the way it always does. At least they put the collectors to some purpose instead of just having them wait on standby for the reapers to get there.

 

 

Having a plan without redundancies isn't a matter of arrogance, merely stupidity. Pointlessly putting the Collectors to some purpose instead of having them wait on standby only compounded it.

 

In using the Reapers, the Reapers took needless risks (giving advanced technology to adversaries), instigated events that led to increased anti-Reaper awareness and preparations, and generally opened the door wider for their own defeat while doing nothing to advance their agenda or efforts that wouldn't have already been accomplished by virtue of the already-initiated invasion.
 

Using the Collectors is like this: if it works, the Reapers save a time of a matter of months/year, which no one cares about because the creation date of the Human Reaper is insignificant and irrelevant to the Reaper designs. If it fails, it offers up a host of bad possibilities that could (and ultimately do) come true.

 

Why take utterly needless risk?

[Vazgen]

Human Reaper gives one advantage.

Humans proved capable of destroying Sovereign and for all the Reapers know, they are the strongest in the galaxy. Having them harvested prior to the invasion allows the Reapers to just destroy Earth from orbit without bothering to harvest humans and taking risks.

[Kurt M.]

(Nerdy voice) The Collectors ARE Reapers!

[Valmar]

If the Reapers were already in transit during the period of the Collector abductions, then the Human Reaper would not have been able to repeat the Sovereign plan of using the Citadel relay as the entry point. The Reapers had already left the counter-Citadel relay by then, so even if the Collectors opened the Citadel Relay there wouldn't be any Reapers in that part of Dark Space to go through it.

 

 

 

I don't disagree. I never said, or intended to imply, that it was their plan to make a reaper before the reapers arrive to use the relay. Like I said, I thought it was clear that they were building it just to speed up the process. Humanity would be harvested regardless, using the collectors only helps to give the reapers a lead. Like showing up to see half the work done for them already, as it were. I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression or made it seem like I thought the collectors were to open a relay or something.

 

 

 

EDI doesn't claim that- she gives no firm number as to how many other people will be needed, and disclaims any certainty of measure. We do, however, get the narrative impetus of Earth as a necessary target from the squadmates during the Collector Cruiser mission (based on the capacity of the Collector Cruiser), as well as the supporting evidence from the Reaper's own policies in ME3 (including choosing to use their first strike opportunity to capture Earth rather than take other, greater, Citadel powers by surprise).

 

 

Since I don't have a perfect memory I'm relying on the wiki here. According to the wiki:

"EDI suggests that the Collectors were 'facilitating Reaper reproduction' by constructing a new Reaper, and also estimated that the Collectors would have to gather millions of humans in order to complete it."

 

Granted it is just an estimation but still its a number. I also do believe earth IS a target but I was saying that if all they need is millions they can reach that quota without going to Earth. I wasn't trying to belittle their interest in Earth I was only saying that they wouldnt NEED to hit earth to finish building a human reaper. Other earth colonies would have the required numbers to finish it.

 

 

Given the Reaper designs for processing Humans of earth is described in the ME3-lore as a years/decades long process, and 'overkill' is hardly that for their next Dreadnaught. More to the point, once the Reapers capture Earth all the other Human colonies combined are irrelevant- there's no point in grabbing them, because all the human colonies combined are in the low tens of millions at best.

 

 

I think you're underestimating humanities growth outside earth. Looking at the numbers Elysium alone has 8mil. Humanity has quite a long list of colonies. I'm sure they would be able to finish the reaper if all they needed was millions, without needing to hit earth.

 

I agree though that they would use Earth to finish the bulk of the reaper. I was only pointing out that they wouldn't HAVE to. I was challenging an absolute.

 

 

 

That's why it's stupid- there's no advantage to starting the ground work for the next Reaper, because there's no time limit for the Reaper efforts and the Human Reaper (and the Terminus abductees) provide no unique advantage.

 

It's a matter of efficiency, not necessity. Weren't you criticizing their lack of plan redundancy earlier?

 

There's nothing suggesting the Collectors were able, let alone capable, of striking Earth before the Reapers get there- only that striking Earth was their intent. Since the Collectors were not advancing the Reaper invasion schedule, and lacked a credible ability to do an abduction on their own, the only plausible way for the Collectors to get abductees from Earth would have been after the Reaper invasion- at which point, there's no gain to have done any other abductions.

 

 

I agree. Though I believe you may have misunderstood my earlier statements. Since I was basically saying this very thing. I wasn't saying anything to the contrary. Like I said in the quote you're replying to in this line, I believe the collectors were only there to start work on the human reaper. I don't believe they had any plans at all to attack earth BEFORE the reapers arrive.

 

Having a plan without redundancies isn't a matter of arrogance, merely stupidity. Pointlessly putting the Collectors to some purpose instead of having them wait on standby only compounded it.

 

In using the Reapers, the Reapers took needless risks (giving advanced technology to adversaries), instigated events that led to increased anti-Reaper awareness and preparations, and generally opened the door wider for their own defeat while doing nothing to advance their agenda or efforts that wouldn't have already been accomplished by virtue of the already-initiated invasion.
 

Using the Collectors is like this: if it works, the Reapers save a time of a matter of months/year, which no one cares about because the creation date of the Human Reaper is insignificant and irrelevant to the Reaper designs. If it fails, it offers up a host of bad possibilities that could (and ultimately do) come true.

 

Why take utterly needless risk?

 

Arrogance in of itself, one could argue, is a form of stupidity anyway. Reapers believe themselves to be so far beyond us. They are eternal, they are unbeatable, unstoppable, cosmic winds... They view themselves as absolute gods that cannot be denied. Since they've been able to continue the cycle for as long as they have we have no reason to really counter their arrogant claims. They've clearly been doing something right. Their arrogance is what ultimately lead to their downfall. If they weren't so arrogant we probably wouldn't even know Sovereign was a reaper in the first place. We only found out about it because it came in to taunt Shepard and go on about how great reapers are and how we will all end because they demand it.

 

Anyway, my point is that they have such high opinions of themselves and view us as ants. They don't plan for these redundancies because they cannot fathom themselves ever being outdone in the first place. I'm not saying they're right for it but it isn't exactly surprising either. How many back up plans would you make for fighting ants? They've never needed a backup plan before, they've always been flawless, or so the narrative of them suggests. The protheans really fucked things up by messing with the keepers.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't disagree. I never said, or intended to imply, that it was their plan to make a reaper before the reapers arrive to use the relay. Like I said, I thought it was clear that they were building it just to speed up the process. Humanity would be harvested regardless, using the collectors only helps to give the reapers a lead. Like showing up to see half the work done for them already, as it were. I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression or made it seem like I thought the collectors were to open a relay or something.

 

 

Moving on, then...

 

 

 

 

Since I don't have a perfect memory I'm relying on the wiki here. According to the wiki:

"EDI suggests that the Collectors were 'facilitating Reaper reproduction' by constructing a new Reaper, and also estimated that the Collectors would have to gather millions of humans in order to complete it."

 

Granted it is just an estimation but still its a number. I also do believe earth IS a target but I was saying that if all they need is millions they can reach that quota without going to Earth. I wasn't trying to belittle their interest in Earth I was only saying that they wouldnt NEED to hit earth to finish building a human reaper. Other earth colonies would have the required numbers to finish it.

 

You can youtube the scene, as well as the Collector ship. The narrative intent of ME2 was that the Reaper would need more than just the Terminus colonies, and that the intent was Earth. There was no indication anywhere in the series that the Human Reaper could have been made from just the colonies.

 

Of course, hard numbers are a fools game in ME, since the series bounces around magnitudes and figures with barely any consistency. ME2 in particular is notorious for never being able to settle down on anything less nebulous than 'big numbers.' Depending on where you look in ME2, the Collectors have abducted thousands, tens of thousands, or millions of colonists... and not necessarily in that order.
 

 

I think you're underestimating humanities growth outside earth. Looking at the numbers Elysium alone has 8mil. Humanity has quite a long list of colonies. I'm sure they would be able to finish the reaper if all they needed was millions, without needing to hit earth.

 

 

 

Elysium is also a multispecies colony. On the other hand, Terra Nova which is explicitly described as having the highest population of any Alliance colony only has 4.4 million (pre-Reaper).

 

But, again, searching for consistent numbers in ME is a fool's errand. Individual Turian/Asari colonies have more population than all the known Human colonies put together. Grunt's recruitment mission planet has an alleged population in the billions. Etc. etc. etc.
 

 

 

It's a matter of efficiency, not necessity. Weren't you criticizing their lack of plan redundancy earlier?

 

 

Sure- because the plan lacked redundancy, and broke because of it. Nothing would break from not starting the Reaper early, while starting the harvest before the Reaper invasion enabled a series of strategic missteps.

 

Criticizing someone because they were lazy doesn't mean that I'm obliged to approve of them running into a wall. In this case, haste was not only a waste of assets, it served no purpose. There were no meaningful 'efficiency' gains to be had because time efficiency (the only kind that could be achieved) was pointless.

 

 

 

I agree. Though I believe you may have misunderstood my earlier statements. Since I was basically saying this very thing. I wasn't saying anything to the contrary. Like I said in the quote you're replying to in this line, I believe the collectors were only there to start work on the human reaper. I don't believe they had any plans at all to attack earth BEFORE the reapers arrive.

 

 

Moving on then...
 

 

Arrogance in of itself, one could argue, is a form of stupidity anyway. Reapers believe themselves to be so far beyond us. They are eternal, they are unbeatable, unstoppable, cosmic winds... They view themselves as absolute gods that cannot be denied. Since they've been able to continue the cycle for as long as they have we have no reason to really counter their arrogant claims. They've clearly been doing something right. Their arrogance is what ultimately lead to their downfall. If they weren't so arrogant we probably wouldn't even know Sovereign was a reaper in the first place. We only found out about it because it came in to taunt Shepard and go on about how great reapers are and how we will all end because they demand it.

 

 

Actually, we only found out because we called in on Saren's secure line and he picked up.

 

As for the difference between arrogance and stupidity, doesn't seem to be much value in distinguishing them.

 

Anyway, my point is that they have such high opinions of themselves and view us as ants. They don't plan for these redundancies because they cannot fathom themselves ever being outdone in the first place. I'm not saying they're right for it but it isn't exactly surprising either. How many back up plans would you make for fighting ants? They've never needed a backup plan before, they've always been flawless, or so the narrative of them suggests. The protheans really fucked things up by messing with the keepers.

 

If I need an ant trap to work, I don't rely on just one and hope that no one ruins it on purpose or accident. Sure, I could simply step on them if the trap failed, but if I was inclined to do that I wouldn't bother with the trap in the first place.

 

Prothean sabotage was just one means for the Citadel trap to fail- others potential causes could have included cyclical warfare, nuclear decapitation strikes, or even pure cosmic chance as space debris hurtles through the cosmos at relativistic velocities. Any of those are plausible ways to damage the Citadel relay, and given enough time (such as an indefinite cycle system) any non-zero possibility will eventually occur.

 

The inevitability of non-zero probabilities for something that hasn't actually happened yet is the cornerstone of the Reaper's entire justification for the Cycles in the first place. Ignoring it for no reason, when time and resources are non-issues, is really, really stupid. The Reapers are supposed to be smart, and justifications of 'well, it worked the last countless times' don't excuse a really obvious weak link (the Citadel) and a really obvious solution (having a backup invasion relay hidden somewhere).

[Display Name Owner]

 

Of course, either way makes the Collector subplot nonsense. If the Collectors weren't involved in a plan to try the Citadel capture, then having them start the harvesting of irrelevant human colonies was just showing their hand too early and for no actual gain- Earth still would have needed to be captured for the Human Reaper to be completed, and the Collectors still would have needed the Reaper armada to credibly do that. Instead it came with real costs, such as the collection of a Reaper IFF and capture of Reaper technology. On the other hand, if the Reapers were waiting on a Collector plot to capture the Citadel... why bother, when they were less than a year away? And when the only reason a decapitation strike might have succeeded was because of Council incompetence and disbelief? Delaying a one year trip for two years while depending on the Council to actually be ignoring the threat would be, in a word, silly.

 

The Collectors would have made far, far more sense as an agitator faction seeking to divide the galaxy against itself in preparation for the Reaper invasion. Instead of human colony abductions, they should have had a hand in provoking the Geth-Quarian conflict, been trying to trade a genophage cure in exchange for a new Krogan rebellion, using the Alpha Relay incident to start the lingering Human-Batarian conflict, trigger a Council-Terminus War, and so on. Shepard's mission would have been trying to force a galactic coalition and opposing the sabotage of galactic unity.

 

I like that idea. I think maybe ME2 should have been the time to do the forging of alliances and ME3 should have been devoted to putting together the actual means to defeat the Reapers. Or vice versa; just rather than having ME3 be about alliances whilst the Crucible thing just gets built somewhere in the background with the Reapers inexplicably failing to even realise it - maybe it would have given both aspects of addressing the Reaper threat the proper attention that way.

[dreamgazer]

The Collectors were certainly easier to handle on paper and far more disposable. By design, really.

[Vit246]

The Collectors sucked and wasted our time and an entire sequel. They show up out of nowhere and get killed off as soon as that. A single ship that gets driven off by a few anti-aircraft guns. They were never a real threat. The Alliance could've asembled a task force fleet to kill them, but the writers forced the Idiot Ball on them just so the Special Snowflake Shepard and his merry ragtag band of glorified foot-soldiers could look like badasses in a bad action movie while everybody else looks ragingly incompetent.

[KaiserShep]

I think the worst part is that the Collectors are not totally wiped out. I suppose it would make sense that there are some left over, but there are apparently enough left over to help fight the turians on Palaven, and yet while they still technically exist, they are never part of the story. I can only assume it's to have Collectors in multiplayer, which is a little annoying to think about.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think the worst part is that the Collectors are not totally wiped out. I suppose it would make sense that there are some left over, but there are apparently enough left over to help fight the turians on Palaven, and yet while they still technically exist, they are never part of the story. I can only assume it's to have Collectors in multiplayer, which is a little annoying to think about.

 

What really annoyed me was that the Reapers never used Collector Swarms. That probably would have made their job much easier. I doubt Mordin's solution could be mass distributed to the public, nor does it work when there's enough of them.

[KaiserShep]

Well, the seeker swarms got totally nerfed for multiplayer.

[SporkFu]

Maybe all the other reapers laughed at Harby when he suggested using them. That's why he never taunted shep during the beam run, or shot the Normandy to bits; he was pouting. 

[Valmar]

You can youtube the scene, as well as the Collector ship. The narrative intent of ME2 was that the Reaper would need more than just the Terminus colonies, and that the intent was Earth. There was no indication anywhere in the series that the Human Reaper could have been made from just the colonies.
 

 

There are colonies in the terminus that we know nothing about from a player perspective. Perhaps even in citadel space. We didn't find out about that human planet Kasumi's mission takes place on until ME2, for example. Though even then I was still basing it on the perspective of the colonies we know about. I wasn't saying, necessarily, that they could finish the reaper with the terminus alone. Just that hitting earth specifically wouldn't be necessary. If all they need is millions they can achieve that number in humans without touching earth. Again it is only the absolute of "they NEED earth for it, it MUST be earth" that I'm arguing against. That doesn't mean I expect them to finish it without Earth, even if they could.

 

 

 

 

Elysium is also a multispecies colony. On the other hand, Terra Nova which is explicitly described as having the highest population of any Alliance colony only has 4.4 million (pre-Reaper).

 

But, again, searching for consistent numbers in ME is a fool's errand. Individual Turian/Asari colonies have more population than all the known Human colonies put together. Grunt's recruitment mission planet has an alleged population in the billions. Etc. etc. etc.
 

 

Yes it is a multispecies colony but it is also directly referred to as a human colony. That doesn't mean only humans live there but it should tell you something about the inhabitants. I don't see a human colony being filled with primarily alien races. The wiki, at least, says that around half the population are alien. Since being anything other than human is all it takes to be alien (asari turian, salarian, hanar, elcor) I think its fair to consider it primarily a human world with the human species outnumbering any of the other races. As the game clearly does since its constantly referred to as a human colony. That was a big driving factor being the blitz attack too, I believe.

 

The aliens having more highly populated worlds is hardly a surprise. Humanity is still relatively fresh and new to the stars. They haven't even been here for one lifetime yet. The other species however, especially Asari, have been in space colonizing worlds for... for a very long time. Like over a thousand years at least, I'd say. Frankly it would be very surprising if humanity were anywhere near their numbers in the short span they've been in the galactic scene.

 

 

 

Sure- because the plan lacked redundancy, and broke because of it. Nothing would break from not starting the Reaper early, while starting the harvest before the Reaper invasion enabled a series of strategic missteps.

 

Criticizing someone because they were lazy doesn't mean that I'm obliged to approve of them running into a wall. In this case, haste was not only a waste of assets, it served no purpose. There were no meaningful 'efficiency' gains to be had because time efficiency (the only kind that could be achieved) was pointless.

 

The collectors themselves are a form of redundancy though. Like you said, they certainly don't need the collectors to begin harvesting humans to make a reaper that early. They could had waited for the reapers to be there. I was arguing that the collectors were not a matter of reaper necessity, merely efficiency. They help speed along the process and have the ground work laid out for the human reaper by time the reaper fleet gets there. Their role is undoubtably bigger this time around (assuming other cycles had collector-equivalents) since usually by time they get to action on any real scale the reapers are already there.

 

Just because they are immortal doesn't mean that time is pointless. One of the benefits of the relay systems is that it allows everything to happen in a timely matter and gives the reapers a nice scheduled to work by. If anything the reaper's are very particular about doing things on time and having everything work according to their scheduled plans. Your own words say that it was pointless - isn't that the very definition of something being redundant.

 

 

 

 

Actually, we only found out because we called in on Saren's secure line and he picked up.

 

 

True but Sovereign knew that before saying anything. His first line was "You are not Saren". Then he proceeds to belittle the squad and make his introduction. He could had just said nothing and given them no information whatsoever. They only know he is a reaper because he boasts about it. Arrogance. 

 

 

 

Prothean sabotage was just one means for the Citadel trap to fail- others potential causes could have included cyclical warfare, nuclear decapitation strikes, or even pure cosmic chance as space debris hurtles through the cosmos at relativistic velocities. Any of those are plausible ways to damage the Citadel relay, and given enough time (such as an indefinite cycle system) any non-zero possibility will eventually occur.

 

Space debris is unlikely to effect the citadel.

 

1. The citadel is not just a giant floating house. It is more than capable of transport and can be moved. The keepers would more than likely be able to move the Citadel if such an event was going to occur.

 

2. The citadel can close its arms to become impenetrable. Whats to say it doesn't also get a magical space shield when it does that which shields it.

 

Consider this also, the wiki says relays can shield themselves to preserve their integrity down to the quantum level. If the relays can be protected to such a degree why not the citadel. It would take something a bit bigger than an asteroid to take out that station if its all walled in, I'd imagine. The Citadel is bloody enormous.

 

Coincidentally one could also argue that the alpha relay was another back-up plan since it would allow them to instantly jump into citadel space.

 

 

 

The inevitability of non-zero probabilities for something that hasn't actually happened yet is the cornerstone of the Reaper's entire justification for the Cycles in the first place. Ignoring it for no reason, when time and resources are non-issues, is really, really stupid. The Reapers are supposed to be smart, and justifications of 'well, it worked the last countless times' don't excuse a really obvious weak link (the Citadel) and a really obvious solution (having a backup invasion relay hidden somewhere).

 

They did have back up plans. Sovereign being perhaps the biggest. The vanguard. What better back up plan can their be other than leaving a genuine reaper there to keep track of things and make sure things go as plan. He indoctrinated agents to serve him, he rallies the geth on his side... did his thing. It almost worked too if it wasn't for Shepard's persistence. Reapers seem to underestimate Shepard a lot. It's what lead to their downfall, ultimately.

 

They also had the alpha relay. Shepard got rid of that too (directly or indirectly, honestly it all comes back to Shepard). To a lesser extent they had the collectors (they did kill Shepard, afterall, which would had saved their bacon if not for TIM bringing him back). Shepard again stopped them. They also have indoctrinated agents all around. 

 

It's easy to say in hindsight that oh the reapers are stupid this is so obvious and that anyone could break the cycle, who wouldn't see this oversight. Its why I put emphasis on looking at it from the context of how long they've been doing this without flaw. Its never been a problem before.

 

The fact that the reapers are billions of years old and only now things started going haywire because the protheans and Shepard, I think, is fair justification for their arrogance. If they had so many flaws in their plan that were so easy to take advantage of you'd think it would think it would had happened a bit earlier rather than millions or billions of years down the road.

 

 

I think the worst part is that the Collectors are not totally wiped out. I suppose it would make sense that there are some left over, but there are apparently enough left over to help fight the turians on Palaven, and yet while they still technically exist, they are never part of the story. I can only assume it's to have Collectors in multiplayer, which is a little annoying to think about.

 

Nevermind the fact that the collectors can turn against the reapers and 'awaken'. Though granted it does have some bases for that happening since protheans can read memories and such from genetic markers. Still, its pretty silly. We're clearly not meant to think too much on these things.

 

 

Maybe all the other reapers laughed at Harby when he suggested using them. That's why he never taunted shep during the beam run, or shot the Normandy to bits; he was pouting. 

 

Pouting or pleading?

SERVE US.

[Dean_the_Young]

There's enough talking past points here that I'm bored and yawning out. Cheers.

[tracesaint]

Collectors were cool, I just wish we could have fought them in their own campaign missions in me3. Maybe we can fight some of their black ark ships in me4. I doubt it...but the multiplayer collectors looked cool. That is the thing about Mass Effect, sometimes the things you read about sound cooler than what you're actually doing. I would have loved to infiltrate a reaper processing facility in the Batarian system...but I'll go save some civilians on Benning instead.

[Dubozz]

Imo space orks would be a lot better enemies than both Collectors and Reapers.

[Larry-3]

Harbinger : I am the vanguard of destruction!

Vanguard class Shepard: Wrong. I am the vanguard of destruction. (locks hands -- biotic charge) Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Boom!

[andy6915]

Well, the seeker swarms got totally nerfed for multiplayer.

 

Thanks to Vega. He beat himself up over choosing the intel over lives, but it ended up being the right choice. His intel had data that let the Alliance work out how to stop the swarms from immobilizing you in a single sting. Sure they still screw with you pretty hard with how they mess up your cooldowns and slow you down, but it's better than going down in a single sting. If not for Vega, swarms would be as powerful as they were in 2 and every single MP fight with Collectors would have been impossible.

[Valmar]

Thanks to Vega. He beat himself up over choosing the intel over lives, but it ended up being the right choice. His intel had data that let the Alliance work out how to stop the swarms from immobilizing you in a single sting. Sure they still screw with you pretty hard with how they mess up your cooldowns and slow you down, but it's better than going down in a single sting. If not for Vega, swarms would be as powerful as they were in 2 and every single MP fight with Collectors would have been impossible.

 

I wasn't aware of that. Interesting.

 

Coincidentally after seeing the movie I question why he felt he even had a choice. How precisely did he plan on saving any of those colonists. There were too many of them and the entire ship was falling apart at the time. Seems to me like he did the only thing he could do in that situation.