67 réponses à ce sujet

[WarriorOfLight999]

If you ask him later, he will admit that you were always his first choice. I don't think he had any intention of leaving without you.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If you ask him later, he will admit that you were always his first choice. I don't think he had any intention of leaving without you.

Very much preferring one option even after it's been denied you doesn't necessarily mean you're willing to force the issue.

[WarriorOfLight999]

This is true. It's possible Duncan would have accepted the rebuke and walked away with Gilmore. But it's only because of that strong rebuke from Bryce. It still doesn't serve the Wardens reputation very well, however.

[Lady Artifice]

Doesn't he back down when Bryce makes clear that he's not okay with Duncan trying this, and content himself with Gilmore?

 

Absolutely correct. He takes into account PC's wishes too.

 

He came because he was hoping they would be more receptive.

[Maverick_One]

With Flemeth in the mix Bardox9 I would not rule out anything.  She does have visions aswell. Really not hard to believe that Flemeth could of came to Duncan and Calien or made sure they came to her and she told them of a bleak future where Thedas falls unless They do this, this, and this. Remember Daveth's convo with Jory? Wonder what Calien and Duncan would sacrifice if they knew that there was no other choice. In the end no matter the choice we make I have a feeling in our various universes that Flemeth moved the pieces so they fell where she wants them.  To what end I don't know.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

With Flemeth in the mix Bardox9 I would not rule out anything.  She does have visions aswell. Really not hard to believe that Flemeth could of came to Duncan and Calien or made sure they came to her and she told them of a bleak future where Thedas falls unless They do this, this, and this. Remember Daveth's convo with Jory? Wonder what Calien and Duncan would sacrifice if they knew that there was no other choice. In the end no matter the choice we make I have a feeling in our various universes that Flemeth moved the pieces so they fell where she wants them.  To what end I don't know.

That just strikes me as a bit more "high fantasy" than this game really goes in for most of the time.

[Maverick_One]

It would not exactly be unprecedented. Something similar to what went on between her and Maric in The Stolen Throne. I could be wrong though, and I will keep an open mind.

[Han Shot First]

This is true. It's possible Duncan would have accepted the rebuke and walked away with Gilmore. But it's only because of that strong rebuke from Bryce. It still doesn't serve the Wardens reputation very well, however.

 

Keep in mind that the Cousland Warden is the youngest child. In a feudal society second sons could potentially be trouble, particularly in a place like Ferelden where the oldest isn't necessarily guaranteed to inherit. One of the characters mentions rumors about the youngest Cousland being more likely to inherit than Fergus. Imagine for a moment a second son or daughter with the personality of Bhelen, and who has no qualms about seizing by force that which otherwise go to his or her older brother.

 

Duncan might have arrived in Highever wondering whether Bryce might be open to the possibility of dumping that second son into the Wardens, where he could pose no threat to Fergus' eventual ascension as Teyrn of Highever. It might not have been unreasonable for Duncan to assume the youngest Cousland was a potential recruit, and that Bryce would not be offended by the suggestion. Of course the Couslands are portrayed as a very close family, so Bryce looking to unload a troublesome 'spare' was never a possibility, but Duncan might not have known the rest of the family as well as Bryce.

 

On that note the human noble Inquisitor is also a younger child, though sent away to the Templars instead of the Wardens. Could something similar be going on there? Once noble siblings of heirs reach adulthood, some of them are shipped off into military orders (or priesthoods) where they'll pose no threat to the eldest inheriting?

[Aimi]

On that note the human noble Inquisitor is also a younger child, though sent away to the Templars instead of the Wardens. Could something similar be going on there? Once noble siblings of heirs reach adulthood, some of them are shipped off into military orders (or priesthoods) where they'll pose no threat to the eldest inheriting?

I wish we knew more about inheritance law and tradition in Thedas. Things like primogeniture, partible inheritance, and appanages don't just have grand-historical relevance: they can be useful for crafting stories, too.

All we really have to go on is the Amell will in the second game and the succession rumors in the first one. Nathaniel's career in the Marches might be another, if we knew for certain whether Nathaniel or Thomas was Rendon Howe's first son. (Do we?) Anyway, you can't make a judgment about a historical trend from two and a half data points.

[Maverick_One]

I believe Nathaniel was older.

[WarriorOfLight999]

That's a considerable analysis. Thank you

[gnewna]

One of the characters mentions rumors about the youngest Cousland being more likely to inherit than Fergus. Imagine for a moment a second son or daughter with the personality of Bhelen, and who has no qualms about seizing by force that which otherwise go to his or her older brother.

 

Duncan might have arrived in Highever wondering whether Bryce might be open to the possibility of dumping that second son into the Wardens, where he could pose no threat to Fergus' eventual ascension as Teyrn of Highever. 

 

 

Seems a bit of a stretch, more likely he'd try to recruit Fergus on that basis, as the one who's viewed as less likely to inherit he's more likely to be annoyed, surely? Duncan doesn't seem like the sort not to have a fair idea of the lay of the land before wading in to a situation like that. (I mean, Pup is only more likely to inherit if that's what their parents want, nobody's suggesting they would try to usurp Fergus.)

[BIGGLESBY]

Duncan does whatever the fucк Duncan wants.

[Bardox9]

The level of circular reasoning going on is amazing. There are assumptions being made that have no basis in the game, books, or the lore there in. 

 

Makes sense for Duncan to be present:

 

Mage: Stated reason for Duncan being at the mage tower was to seek a greater commitment from the circle for "the kings army" not looking for a new recruit. The wardens are always looking for recruits, but that was not the reason Duncan went to the tower. It just so happened that Irving had someone he thought Duncan might take. Completely beside the point of his visit to the tower. Considering Duncan knew the Archdemon had risen and the horde was marching on the surface, personally going to the Tower to get more mages for the army to fight the Blight is a reasonable excuse for Duncan to be there.

 

Dalish Elf: The stated reason for Duncan being in that part of the woods was he was tracking a pack of Darkspawn and happened across an elf that was infected with the Darkspawn taint. He wasn't out there looking for a new recruit, he just happened to find one. Completely beside the point of his visit to those woods. Considering Duncan knew the Archdemon had risen and the horde was marching on the surface, personally hunting down a pack of Darkspawn is a reasonable excuse for Duncan to be there.

 

Dwarven Noble: The stated reason for Duncan being there is he will be leading a squad of Wardens into the Deep Roads to scout out the Darkspawn horde. He was in the Kings dinning hall simply to ask the Dwarf Kings permission prior to roaming his lands. He wasn't out there looking for a new recruit, he just happened to find one. Completely beside the point of his visit Orzammar. Considering Duncan knew the Archdemon had risen and the horde was marching on the surface, personally going to the Deep Roads to evaluate the enemy in preparation for the coming battles is a reasonable excuse for Duncan to be there.

 

Does not make sense for Duncan to be present:

 

Human Noble: The stated reason for his being in Highever was in response to a letter from Teyrn Cousland suggesting Sir Gilmore as a possible candidate. He heard rumors of the youngest child's combat skills and thought he too would make for a good candidate but did not press the issue when the Teyrn objected. Considering that Duncan knew the Archdemon had risen and that the horde was marching on the surface, this was not the time to humor a noble and a lesser Warden should have been sent to handle this issue. The commander of the Grey should have been with his men.

 

City Elf: The stated reason for Duncan being there was that he was looking for a new recruit. In a time of peace, that would have been fine. Considering that Duncan knew the Archdemon had risen and that the horde was marching on the surface, this was not the time to wonder the slums looking for a spunky poor person. The commander of the Grey should have been with his men.

 

Dwarven Commoner The stated reason for Duncan being there was that he wanted to watch a Proving. Was he there specifically looking for a recruit or was he just catching a show? Don't know, don't care. In a time of peace, that would have been fine. Considering that Duncan knew the Archdemon had risen and that the horde was marching on the surface, this was not the time to watch dirt people fight. The commander of the Grey should have been with his men.

 

To say that Flemeth had some vision and manipulated the situation in some way to put Duncan in all of those places is an awesome leap to take. With what little we really know about her, ok maybe. I just don't think she had that much power or influence to make such a specific set events take place. She might have had a vision of these possible futures converging on the retrieval of grey warden treaties and then prepared her plan from there, but that's about as far into the theory of "Flemeth did it" as I would go.

 

There is nothing to suggest that Duncan or Cailan knew what would happen. Possible Cailan knew about Alistair and didn't want to risk the entire Theirin bloodline in the event of his death and sent the "new guy" to watch Alistair's back just in case. They were fighting a horde of monster after all. But again, that is as far into that theory as any part of the story would support.

[Mykel54]

Duncan went to Orzammar and talked with his friend Endrin, then Endrin called a proving in the grey warden´s honor. The warrior caste would fight it out and the winner would be the recruit for Duncan. Considering that Ferelden barely tolerates the wardens due to past history, it makes sense for Duncan to recruit in Orzammar. Even Loghain says: "smart of the grey wardens to look for new recruits in Orzammar".

 

Dwarf noble makes no sense because it implies that Duncan refused to recruit the dwarf commoner first. He just finds the noble on the deep roads by chance, and appears to have no need for recruits because he did not recruit the dwarf commoner. Dwarf noble also makes no sense in that the characters showed (ex. Lady Helmi, Lord Bemot, Lord Meino, specially Lord DACE) do not appear at all when you return to orzammar. Lord Dace has changed and is another dwarf. The others don´t show. The only character that shows up is Bhelen and Mardy. At least in the dwarf commoner origin, the continuity is there with Beraht being referenced, and Jarvia, Leske and Rica showing up.

 

In all origins Duncan was looking to make new grey wardens, so he was searching for recruits. The codex entry for him says so. He wasn´t at the circle tower to ask a "great commitment in the kings army", that is the job of Loghain or Cailan, he was there to get a warden recruit. He also was not hunting darkspawn as a hobby when he found the dalish elf, he was searching for the dalish in the brecilian forest, because he wanted a recruit.

[Maverick_One]

Circulus in Probando  or circle in proving is much more fun to say and type I think. Would you rather me point out the obvious? If so I can. My first answer would be because this a game and last I checked it was for entertainment purposes, and not a how to on defeating a Blight. So things like making sense from a tactical standpoint does not always happen. Duncan was in those places because someone thought we needed a City Elf, a Dwarf Commoner, and the Human Noble as PCs. I was simply going way out on a limb to give an highly unlikely but still very slightly plausible explanation. We could also go with because it is was on his way to Ostagar. Where does it say he started out at Ostagar? See not as fun as the previous "High Fantasy" theory. 

[Bardox9]

Duncan went to Orzammar and talked with his friend Endrin, then Endrin called a proving in the grey warden´s honor. The warrior caste would fight it out and the winner would be the recruit for Duncan. Considering that Ferelden barely tolerates the wardens due to past history, it makes sense for Duncan to recruit in Orzammar. Even Loghain says: "smart of the grey wardens to look for new recruits in Orzammar".

 

Dwarf noble makes no sense because it implies that Duncan refused to recruit the dwarf commoner first. He just finds the noble on the deep roads by chance, and appears to have no need for recruits because he did not recruit the dwarf commoner. Dwarf noble also makes no sense in that the characters showed (ex. Lady Helmi, Lord Bemot, Lord Meino, specially Lord DACE) do not appear at all when you return to orzammar. Lord Dace has changed and is another dwarf. The others don´t show. The only character that shows up is Bhelen and Mardy. At least in the dwarf commoner origin, the continuity is there with Beraht being referenced, and Jarvia, Leske and Rica showing up.

 

In all origins Duncan was looking to make new grey wardens, so he was searching for recruits. The codex entry for him says so. He wasn´t at the circle tower to ask a "great commitment in the kings army", that is the job of Loghain or Cailan, he was there to get a warden recruit. He also was not hunting darkspawn as a hobby when he found the dalish elf, he was searching for the dalish in the brecilian forest, because he wanted a recruit.

As I said earlier, they Grey Wardens are always looking for recruits. That was not the purpose of Duncan's visit to the tower. When you talk to Duncan after taking him to his quarters from Irvings office he says "When the King sent out the call, the circle of Ferelden sent only seven mages to Ostagar. I asked King Calian's permission to come and seek a greater commitment from the Circle." It wasn't until after the Harrowing and after Duncan got there that Irving mentions your character to him. It was entirely possible that your character wouldn't survive the Harrowing. It would make no sense for Irving to tell Duncan of your character until you passed your test.

 

As for Dwarven noble, if you play that origin you can fight in the proving and you easily smack down Orzammars best warriors (which would include the dwarven commoner in the nobleman's armor). You later find the dwarven commoner dead in a cell if you play any origin other than DC. As for the swapping of Lord Dace, you do understand that Dace is a family name and that any male in a noble family is considered a "lord". As for disappearing dwarf's, that city is a really big hole in the ground and you don't get to see much of it. The seats around the proving arena are packed full. You can wander around Orzammar for hours and never see enough dwarf's to fill that place.

 

Going to places just to find a recruit is not something field commanders do in the midst of a war. During peace time, sure. Not when the enemy is pouring into the land. If the origin stories began prior to the Arch Demons awakening and the wardens didn't "sense" the AD until after your joining, that would have been different. But that is not the world you find when you start the game. The AD has been revived and is commanding a horde of Darkspawn that Ferelden's King and it's Grey Wardens have been fighting for atleast a week. Maybe longer. This is not the time for the Commander of the Grey to go wandering around the country side looking for three people. Any other time and all of those stories would have been fine. Duncan going someplace himself just to recruit would have been fine. But not when the enemy is on the move.

[gnewna]

Most of these locations are at least a week's travel, some probably more like two from Ostagar, I'd say (judging by e.g. Dagna's statement that it's 2 weeks & 4 days journey from Orzammar to the Circle Tower and back). Duncan could very easily have already been travelling before there was any sign of definite trouble and be passing by any of these locations on the way to Ostagar (assuming that he doesn't do a full circuit of all of them but only actually meet one recruit). Orzammar is probably the least plausible, given we know he'd already been in Denerim at some point and met Daveth.

 

Plenty of reasons for him to be in the capital (although it's perhaps a bit odd that he'd already met Daveth and sent him to Ostagar, but Daveth's a wily fellow, he might well have sent him on ahead while he visited Valendrian to meet Adaia's son or daughter). Perfectly reasonable that, while in Denerim, he'd follow up on a potentially promising young elf who would be about old enough to be recruited if it weren't for this wedding that Valendrian happens to have scheduled for around now... (Suggesting, in context, that it may well have been a visit that he had planned in advance and that Valendrian knew about.)

 

The thing I personally find a bit more odd/implausible is that both Jory and Daveth are identified as coming from very, very close to one of the possible PC recruits, given Jory is from Highever, or thereabouts, right? And, again, Duncan has obviously met them before the PC, suggesting he'd very recently been in that location, but presumably left and come back? (Again, I can well believe that he'd be happy sending either of them on ahead, but it still seems slightly strange.)

[Umbar]

Funny, I was just thinking about this myself. Here's my take on it:

 

Dwarven Commoner: Makes sense. Duncan coming to Orzammar, the only place on Thedas you can find warriors already proficient in fighting darkspawn, to find a new recruit definitely makes sense. So does seeing the Commoner's prowess and conscripting them.

 

Dwarven Noble: In the same vein, this also makes sense. Why he didn't conscript the Commoner in this instance is obvious. Because, the Commoner never managed to escape Beraht's prison.

 

Dalish Elf: Duncan was in the forest, tracking darkspawn. Coming across the Dalish was an coincidence. The Dalish also has the most compelling reason to join; their life depends on it, literally.

 

Mage: Mages are a boon to any military force and a Mage Grey Warden would be a great boost to the Warden forces. This also makes sense.

 

Human Noble: Duncan was there to test Ser Gilmore and if Bryce had allowed, the youngest Cousland. We get the impression that a) it takes a special something to join the Grey Wardens and not every warrior has it and the dearth of Wardens means that Duncan is more or less desperate for new recruits. A sworn warrior to one of the most powerful lords in Ferelden is more likely to be a good fit than random chump and so, his coming to Highever makes sense as well, if a little less so than the others.

 

City Elf: This is the one that makes no sense to me. Instead of going to Orzammar, home of darkspawn-slayers or the Circle Tower, home of lightning-wielding, fireball-blasting demigods or even Highever, to test a warrior with great mettle, he comes to an impoverished alienange, hoping to just stumble across a suitable candidate? Why? It doesn't make sense at all.

 

I think it would have made slightly more sense if Duncan had come to Denerim for similar reasons he had gone to Highever and then plucked the City Elf out of prison, like he did with the Dwarf Commoner. Coming specifically to the alienange really doesn't make much sense.

[Lady Artifice]

 

City Elf: This is the one that makes no sense to me. Instead of going to Orzammar, home of darkspawn-slayers or the Circle Tower, home of lightning-wielding, fireball-blasting demigods or even Highever, to test a warrior with great mettle, he comes to an impoverished alienange, hoping to just stumble across a suitable candidate? Why? It doesn't make sense at all.

 

I think it would have made slightly more sense if Duncan had come to Denerim for similar reasons he had gone to Highever and then plucked the City Elf out of prison, like he did with the Dwarf Commoner. Coming specifically to the alienange really doesn't make much sense.

 

 

 

Okay, it's been gone over several times.

 

This is, in fact, the origin where you get the most explicit explanation why in game.

 

If you ask the right questions, Duncan will explain that he wanted to recruit CE's mother long ago. If you tell Valendrian you look forward to becoming a Grey Warden, he will say that Duncan was her expressely for you. The CE pc is the specific reason he's there, not the hope of "stumbling over" a random elf.

 

 

If you still think this doesn't make sense, fine, but this is the reason. It isn't random. It is indeed, one of the least random origins.

[Umbar]

Okay, it's been gone over several times.

 

This is, in fact, the origin where you get the most explicit explanation why in game.

 

If you ask the right questions, Duncan will explain that he wanted to recruit CE's mother long ago. If you tell Valendrian you look forward to becoming a Grey Warden, he will say that Duncan was her expressely for you. The CE pc is the specific reason he's there, not the hope of "stumbling over" a random elf.

 

 

If you still think this doesn't make sense, fine, but this is the reason. It isn't random. It is indeed, one of the least random origins.

 

I had no idea. I guess I didn't ask the right questions. Of course that begs the question of why Duncan didn't say that outright when the first met the PC or why Valendrian was marrying the Elf off if s/he was supposed to become a Grey Warden.

 

Do we ever get any explanation as to what was so special about the PC's mother?

[Taki17]

Do we ever get any explanation as to what was so special about the PC's mother?

Everyone in the Alienage tells that she was a fierce fighter and good with the blade. She's the one who taught the PC how to fight.

 

The mother even has a cameo in Leliana's Song, she's one of the prisoners in the dungeon you can free.

[Umbar]

Everyone in the Alienage tells that she was a fierce fighter and good with the blade. She's the one who taught the PC how to fight.

 

The mother even has a cameo in Leliana's Song, she's one of the prisoners in the dungeon you can free.

 

Yes, I remember those bits, though I had no idea about the cameo in the DLC. Still seems like a story is missing, like why Duncan wanted to recruit her and how she learned to fight.

[Jerkules17]

I wonder what would be the reasons for him to be in the other cut origins aka human farmer/commoner,and Avvar barbarian?

[Mykel54]

Yes, I remember those bits, though I had no idea about the cameo in the DLC. Still seems like a story is missing, like why Duncan wanted to recruit her and how she learned to fight.

Presumably she had some contact with the dalish, because look at the dagger she owned

 

Known as "the Fang of Fen'Harel," this elegant dagger was first wielded in the battles to save the Dales.

It was passed down to your mother, and from her to you.

 

It is described as "elegant", so we can assume it is of elvhenan (dalish) craftmanship, and has a history of being used by the dalish in early times. It is also noted as "being passed down to your mother", which implies that it was a heirloom of her family. This likely means that Adaia family ancestors were dalish, and that at some point one member of the family (maybe even Adaia) left the dalish, took the dagger with her/him, and went to human society. She ended up in prison in Orlais (or Denerim? was that just reused or lorewise too?) and from there she likely went to the alienage.

 

I think it is reasonable that Adaia learned to fight outside the alienage, because the alienage elves describe her as "wild", which is the same word they use when talking about the dalish. I think she either was a former dalish, or she was a bandit/mercenary for some time, before settling in the alienage. I think the class that makes most sense considering her weapon and nimbleness (she is an elf and female, so not very strong) is a rogue.