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#251
In Exile

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The best example I can explain was the first time the Exile travels to Nar Shaddaa aboard the Ebon Hawk. Kreia is mentoring you and you come across a beggar early on. He asks for credits, and being a compassionate and understanding Jedi, you give him some and he thanks you. Well, beyond your control, he is then intercepted, mugged, and beaten by fellow beggars who saw your generosity and took advantage of him. You attempted to do something positive, and yet something negative occurred as a result. 

 

This is the best example of a game trolling the player to make a very heavy-handed, author tract point. There's a lot that's good in KoTOR in terms of deconstruction of Star Wars, but this particular scene is a failure on every level. 


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#252
Revan Reborn

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This is the best example of a game trolling the player to make a very heavy-handed, author tract point. There's a lot that's good in KoTOR in terms of deconstruction of Star Wars, but this particular scene is a failure on every level. 

I disagree for the simple fact that this scenario played perfectly into Kreia's twisted and corrupted ideology. She saw the Force as a lie, and there being no difference between light or dark. This was nothing more than an explanation to give the player more reason to consider Kreia's perspective, rather than assuming the Force is "good' and the Dark Side is "evil." It brought complexities and philosophical questions to Star Wars that had never been asked or posed. GL always kept light and dark very transparent and separate in the OT and Prequels. KotOR II was really the first instance of blurring the lines, and showing that even the Force could be morally ambiguous, and I personally appreciated that.

 

Kreia is probably hands-down one of the best characters ever written in an RPG. Her explanation and stories of Revan and his rationale for falling to the Dark Side are legendary and unprecedented. She truly brought an element to Star Wars no one ever saw before.


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#253
AlanC9

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It didn't do that for me. What's the lesson we're supposed to take away, exactly? Never help anyone because sometimes it might not work?
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#254
ShadowLordXII

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It didn't do that for me. What's the lesson we're supposed to take away, exactly? Never help anyone because sometimes it might not work?

 

I believe that Kriea wanted to teach the Exile that all decisions can have unintended positive/negative consequences regardless of intent. Most of the rest of the game still encourages the path of the Light Side, but won't admonish you for going on the Dark or Grey paths.



#255
Revan Reborn

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It didn't do that for me. What's the lesson we're supposed to take away, exactly? Never help anyone because sometimes it might not work?

The lesson is blanket kindness will not always lead to a happy ending, which is contrary to how GL always portrayed Star Wars. What made KotOR II so interesting is it made players question their decisions, before determining whether they were truly "good" or not. In order to have an appreciation for this moral ambiguity, you had to have an open mind and be able to appreciate the good (the Force) and the bad (the Dark Side).

 

The Jedi Order refused to adhere to any philosophy other than the Force, and as a result were almost destroyed and became a relic of the past. If not for individuals such as Revan and the Exile, who were able to put the draconian methods of the Order aside in order to gain a deeper understanding of the galaxy, the Republic and the Jedi Order would have been entirely eradicated without anyone knowing.

 

Just go back and listen to all the conversations Kreia has about Revan. Why he chose to disobey the Jedi Order. Why he disappeared into the Unknown Regions and came back a Dark Lord of the Sith. Her explanations and rationale, while unconventional, are very well-founded and almost believable. KotOR II painted Star Wars in a very different light, and that's what truly made the game so special, even more so than its predecessor.


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#256
Revan Reborn

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I believe that Kriea wanted to teach the Exile that all decisions can have unintended positive/negative consequences regardless of intent. Most of the rest of the game still encourages the path of the Light Side, but won't admonish you for going on the Dark or Grey paths.

Exactly. Her point was that making uninformed and naive decisions could be costly without considering the ramifications. The galaxy was much too complex and simple acts of kindness would never be construed in a positive way even if you intended them to be. This is what truly made the game memorable because for the first time being a orthodox Jedi was not necessarily the preferred path. In fact, you oftentimes found yourself in more trouble trying to remain with the Light side than you did being clouded or falling to the Dark Side. Kreia and Revan had a unique understanding as they had both been Jedi and Sith.



#257
Zu Long

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Exactly. Her point was that making uninformed and naive decisions could be costly without considering the ramifications. The galaxy was much too complex and simple acts of kindness would never be construed in a positive way even if you intended them to be. This is what truly made the game memorable because for the first time being a orthodox Jedi was not necessarily the preferred path. In fact, you oftentimes found yourself in more trouble trying to remain with the Light side than you did being clouded or falling to the Dark Side. Kreia and Revan had a unique understanding as they had both been Jedi and Sith.

 

That's actually just as GL put it down. "Ever is the dark side tempting with the quick and easy path." The Light side is supposed to be difficult to follow. That's part of the point. The universe is morally grey, but a Jedi can't be. Kreia's just encouraging a non-interventionist, selfish darkside path, the way she does for most of the game... and there is some in game evidence that she instigated the beggar's mugging by mind-clouding his attacker, just to be able to claim the Exile had erred.


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#258
veeia

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The genius of that scene (and Kreia in general) is that she scolds you no matter what choice you take, because your actions, good or bad, have consequences beyond your understanding. KoTor 2 was generally fantastic with escaping the good/bad binary (although it weirdly encouraged you to go full dark or light) and examining morality systems in general. Love that game so much. Kreia is the best character. 



#259
Gold Dragon

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In an effort to bring this back to DRAGON AGE.......

 

 

[snip]

The "better" choice is simply opinion - players literally got what they've been asking for since forever. Yet - people still call saving Connor the "best" choice because they label it moral.

 

My Cousland Warden had no interest in trekking all the way to the Tower - which he hadn't been to yet - to talk to some mages, come back, and have to battle his way in all over again.  There is not an altruistic bone in my Main Warden - he's not motivated by saving little boys from their stupid mothers - but he also found the blood ritual to be risky cause he isn't going to trust something he doesn't understand (magic).  

 

Likewise - he also isn't motivated by mustache twirling evil either.  He's not excited about killing the boy - he's more annoyed than anything to find out some dumb Orlesian woman allowed this entire mess to slow him down.

 

For him - the better choice was to kill the boy and get this mess done with.  I don't worry about what "morality" would say - and I'm not sure why other people do.

 

My First Warden (Female Human Warrior) Did likewise, but her reasoning behind Killing Connor was rather different.

 

She believed that it was part of the responsibilities of the Nobles to protect the commoners (if there are no farmers, how are you going to have food on the table?, etc....), not kill them on a whim.  Also, she hadn't been to the Circle yet, and was deeply worried about what would happen if she left the area.  While not Distrustful of Magic, she didn't trust a confirmed blood mage with that amount of power.  So she brought justice to the Arlessa on behalf of the village of Redcliffe.  She knocked out Isolde (felt rather satisfying for some reason, perhaps because Isolde was getting hysterical), and killed Conner herself.

 

Later in Camp, Alistair confronted her about it, and she said it had gone well.  Bugged Aistair agreed.  Later, when Reading the Wiki (I had managed to avoid spoilers, so this was truly RP, and not Metagaming), I found out that 1, Alistair would agree with you only because that dialogue choice didn't take everything into account (In reality, he'd stat yelling and screaming in anger about it, and might even start a fight) and 2, I could not only have gone to the Tower, but also to the Anvil of the Void, and the Heart of the (Brecillian) Forest before returning to Redcliffe Castle, and everyone (Demon included) would keep Marking Time.

 

Needless to say -->I<-- didn't feel so good about THAT choice afterwards. Bioware dropped the ball with it IMO.



#260
In Exile

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I disagree for the simple fact that this scenario played perfectly into Kreia's twisted and corrupted ideology. She saw the Force as a lie, and there being no difference between light or dark. This was nothing more than an explanation to give the player more reason to consider Kreia's perspective, rather than assuming the Force is "good' and the Dark Side is "evil." It brought complexities and philosophical questions to Star Wars that had never been asked or posed. GL always kept light and dark very transparent and separate in the OT and Prequels. KotOR II was really the first instance of blurring the lines, and showing that even the Force could be morally ambiguous, and I personally appreciated that.

 

Of course it played into her ideology - it's a contrived and ham-fisted illustration of it, pretending as if the only two possible results are the two results that her ideology predicts. That's what makes it an author tract. 

 

Kreia being a phenomenal character doesn't save the scene from being terribly executed as any kind of Aesop about morality, or from just being an instance of trolling the player from a design POV. 

 

 

I believe that Kriea wanted to teach the Exile that all decisions can have unintended positive/negative consequences regardless of intent. Most of the rest of the game still encourages the path of the Light Side, but won't admonish you for going on the Dark or Grey paths.

 

But the actual scene is totally arbitrary. It's the equivalent of the person just screaming "THE BOZAKS ARE COMING!" and running shrieking off the edge of the platform to his death, with the moral being that sometimes people will spontaneously break down into a fit of temporary insanity and commit suicide. 

 

The genius of that scene (and Kreia in general) is that she scolds you no matter what choice you take, because your actions, good or bad, have consequences beyond your understanding. KoTor 2 was generally fantastic with escaping the good/bad binary (although it weirdly encouraged you to go full dark or light) and examining morality systems in general. Love that game so much. Kreia is the best character. 

 

But the consequence isn't beyond your understanding. It's totally understandable. It's just unpredictable and structured so as to troll the player no matter what choice you make. This is in total contrast to the scenes on Dantoine where you can play both sides against each other, and Kreia praises you for it. On Dantoine, you're an active agent. Kreia's praise - and illustration of her morality - only comes when you earn it. That's a well-done scene. 


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#261
Xilizhra

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The lesson is blanket kindness will not always lead to a happy ending, which is contrary to how GL always portrayed Star Wars. What made KotOR II so interesting is it made players question their decisions, before determining whether they were truly "good" or not. In order to have an appreciation for this moral ambiguity, you had to have an open mind and be able to appreciate the good (the Force) and the bad (the Dark Side).

 

The Jedi Order refused to adhere to any philosophy other than the Force, and as a result were almost destroyed and became a relic of the past. If not for individuals such as Revan and the Exile, who were able to put the draconian methods of the Order aside in order to gain a deeper understanding of the galaxy, the Republic and the Jedi Order would have been entirely eradicated without anyone knowing.

 

Just go back and listen to all the conversations Kreia has about Revan. Why he chose to disobey the Jedi Order. Why he disappeared into the Unknown Regions and came back a Dark Lord of the Sith. Her explanations and rationale, while unconventional, are very well-founded and almost believable. KotOR II painted Star Wars in a very different light, and that's what truly made the game so special, even more so than its predecessor.

Isn't Darth Traya a complete lunatic whose actions would probably kill everything in the galaxy if she ever succeeded in her likely impossible goal?



#262
Revan Reborn

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That's actually just as GL put it down. "Ever is the dark side tempting with the quick and easy path." The Light side is supposed to be difficult to follow. That's part of the point. The universe is morally grey, but a Jedi can't be. Kreia's just encouraging a non-interventionist, selfish darkside path, the way she does for most of the game... and there is some in game evidence that she instigated the beggar's mugging by mind-clouding his attacker, just to be able to claim the Exile had erred.

I never stated KotOR II contradicted established Star Wars principles. What I did say is it expanded them and added complexities that were never considered before. The entire Jedi Council remained on the path of the Light and because of it they went extinct. The point of KotOR II in many ways was to show that the Light side was not infallible and that one had to embrace a more open-minded and inclusive understanding to truly understand the events unraveling.

 

The films have never been morally grey. Jedi have always followed the Force and the Sith have always followed the Dark Side. There is no ambiguity in the films whatsoever in terms of themes of Light and Dark. You missed the point of her entire purpose in KotOR II then. Kreia despised the Jedi (the Force) and the Sith (the Dark Side). She had been a part of both and had been ostracized by both. Her entire point was to show how much in common the Sith and Jedi actually shared, and that their moral compass was the only element that separated them.

 

As far as your latter part, that's pure speculation and nothing more that need not apply. The point of KotOR II was to show a galaxy that wasn't dominated by the overarching and transparent themes that we had come to expect in Star Wars. We saw a new kind of threat that wasn't dominated by the Sith. We encountered a side of the Force we had never seen as it is rare that anyone has experienced both the Force and the Dark Side and live to tell about it.

 

The genius of that scene (and Kreia in general) is that she scolds you no matter what choice you take, because your actions, good or bad, have consequences beyond your understanding. KoTor 2 was generally fantastic with escaping the good/bad binary (although it weirdly encouraged you to go full dark or light) and examining morality systems in general. Love that game so much. Kreia is the best character. 

Absolutely. KotOR II is by far one of the greatest RPGs ever made, and it's largely because of the moral ambiguity and the dark tone set throughout the story. There really was no "right" or "wrong" as there was evil on both sides and many of the characters were just ultimately pawns in the game.

 

Of course it played into her ideology - it's a contrived and ham-fisted illustration of it, pretending as if the only two possible results are the two results that her ideology predicts. That's what makes it an author tract. 

 

Kreia being a phenomenal character doesn't save the scene from being terribly executed as any kind of Aesop about morality, or from just being an instance of trolling the player from a design POV. 

 

 

 

But the actual scene is totally arbitrary. It's the equivalent of the person just screaming "THE BOZAKS ARE COMING!" and running shrieking off the edge of the platform to his death, with the moral being that sometimes people will spontaneously break down into a fit of temporary insanity and commit suicide. 

 

 

But the consequence isn't beyond your understanding. It's totally understandable. It's just unpredictable and structured so as to troll the player no matter what choice you make. This is in total contrast to the scenes on Dantoine where you can play both sides against each other, and Kreia praises you for it. On Dantoine, you're an active agent. Kreia's praise - and illustration of her morality - only comes when you earn it. That's a well-done scene. 

The writer wanted to make it transparent that a good choice does not translate into a good response. This had always generally been the case in Star Wars (especially the games), which is why this scene was so incredible and needed. You can make the argument that it was "forced" and was not well-executed, but that is clearly your opinion and many here have stated to the contrary with respect to that scene.

 

You entirely miss the point then. The purpose of the scene was to take control out of the hands of the player. To take your choice and to flip it on its head. It was a basic statement of how what you intend does not always translate to reality. To argue it was poorly-written and a "troll" just misses the entire purpose of how crucial that scene was setting the tone for the rest of the game.

 

Isn't Darth Traya a complete lunatic whose actions would probably kill everything in the galaxy if she ever succeeded in her likely impossible goal?

Is Kreia a lunatic? Perhaps. Then again, I'd say that most of the Jedi Council and the Sith Lords were just as insane as she was, in their own respective ways. Kreia saw the Force as the ultimate evil in the galaxy. She had been betrayed by the Jedi and the Sith. She had a unique perspective that no one else could truly understand. Would destroying the Force kill the galaxy? Who really knows? The point was all sides of the spectrum were flawed, no matter how "good" or "bad" they were. Kreia just merely saw the hypocrisy of the Force and wanted to exterminate it.

 

Back on topic though, as I illustrated above moral ambiguity and moral dilemmas could add a lot of potential opportunities for Dragon Age. It's likely these types of decisions will not make it into DAI, as BioWare doesn't really have a strong history of building these kinds of choices. I would love seeing a more prominent presence of these kind of scenarios in the future, however, as they make the player think and second guess the choices he/she actually makes.



#263
Zu Long

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I never stated KotOR II contradicted established Star Wars principles. What I did say is it expanded them and added complexities that were never considered before. The entire Jedi Council remained on the path of the Light and because of it they went extinct. The point of KotOR II in many ways was to show that the Light side was not infallible and that one had to embrace a more open-minded and inclusive understanding to truly understand the events unraveling.

The films have never been morally grey. Jedi have always followed the Force and the Sith have always followed the Dark Side. There is no ambiguity in the films whatsoever in terms of themes of Light and Dark. You missed the point of her entire purpose in KotOR II then. Kreia despised the Jedi (the Force) and the Sith (the Dark Side). She had been a part of both and had been ostracized by both. Her entire point was to show how much in common the Sith and Jedi actually shared, and that their moral compass was the only element that separated them.

As far as your latter part, that's pure speculation and nothing more that need not apply. The point of KotOR II was to show a galaxy that wasn't dominated by the overarching and transparent themes that we had come to expect in Star Wars. We saw a new kind of threat that wasn't dominated by the Sith. We encountered a side of the Force we had never seen as it is rare that anyone has experienced both the Force and the Dark Side and live to tell about it.

Absolutely. KotOR II is by far one of the greatest RPGs ever made, and it's largely because of the moral ambiguity and the dark tone set throughout the story. There really was no "right" or "wrong" as there was evil on both sides and many of the characters were just ultimately pawns in the game.


"Pure speculation?" I think not. As I said, there are a number of in game reasons why I believe this is so, but your posts so far suggest you would summarily dismiss them, so I don't see the point. I will say your view of KOTOR2 seems heavily predicated on Kreia being a morally ambiguous character who ultimately had unique insights into the force. My own view of it is predicated on Kreia's morality not being ambiguous at all. She is a villain very much in the vein of the Emporer in that she manipulates things behind the scenes to achieve a very specific Dark side goal. As others have said though, we should get back to the subject.

Back on topic though, as I illustrated above moral ambiguity and moral dilemmas could add a lot of potential opportunities for Dragon Age. It's likely these types of decisions will not make it into DAI, as BioWare doesn't really have a strong history of building these kinds of choices. I would love seeing a more prominent presence of these kind of scenarios in the future, however, as they make the player think and second guess the choices he/she actually makes.


I would argue that Bioware has a number of morally ambiguous choices but that they have largely done a better job of making the results predictable, if one is paying attention, than the original example you provided. I for one hope that trend continues.

#264
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Watch Dogs has made you cynical.

 

Lol! Hardly. Watch Dogs was really good. It didn't moralize, on EITHER side.


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#265
Bigdoser

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I believe that Kriea wanted to teach the Exile that all decisions can have unintended positive/negative consequences regardless of intent. Most of the rest of the game still encourages the path of the Light Side, but won't admonish you for going on the Dark or Grey paths.

 

Funny enough with the restoration mod being dark side reveals more interesting information than if you were light side in the game and when you start approaching the end. Well my exile was dark side but did not kill the masters I felt letting wallow in their own failure is more punishment than killing them. Kriea approved I love my exile sith lord and my corrupted crew. Still at the start my exile did random acts of murder until Kriea taught her the art of manipulation etc.

 

Plus don't murder people just cause you can like a normal sith. Manipulate people move them as pawns doing that was great in that game. Was maxed dark side but the end of the game and kriea was quite happy with how I turned out since well I did not kill the jedi masters. What annoyed me was lucas says exile must be light side for canon >_> 

 

This is my favroite conversation in the game with my dark side exile I felt it was a real turning point and actually made my exile think on how she actually uses the dark side and how to grow stronger. I mean the dark side at a point would be like so what your murdering people? What ever! Pff I am not going to strengthen my connection to you with just that. Then I decided to pull small strings as Kriea taught me and then the awesome dark side decisions came into play with Kriea nodding with approval at the same time. 

 

 

So as a sith don't kill people just because you can use them to grow stronger help them don't ignore them because in your eyes they are weak. Through you helping people you in turn grow stronger because you are challenging yourself mentally and physically and with that the dark side can grow stronger since you learn to apply it in different ways after that THEN you discard/leave said person in normal fashion.

 

I felt the dark side story was more interesting overall and talking with others they agreed. 

 

I thought TOR story would of been more interesting if exile went dark and Revan went light. Great now I feel like playing kotor 2 again.



#266
Fast Jimmy

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Lol! Hardly. Watch Dogs was really good. It didn't moralize, on EITHER side.

 

True. Then again, it wasn't an RPG.



#267
Dr. Rush

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I've posted about this extensively in the past. Having optimal choices undermines all the choices available. 

 

The best kind of roleplaying choices do not have optimal options. The worst kind of choice is having to choose between 1)Good and 2)Bad. The best choices are making the players choose between multiple good options, or multiple bad options. If there are multiple good options, then the player knowingly has to leave something on the table, something of real, significant value has to be left, in order for something else to be gained. The multiple bad options is just as satisfying, as the player has to really evaluate their values, and the potential consequences, when there is no good answer, something terrible will inevitably happen, and the best the player can do is prevent some, but not all of that tragedy. 

 

Any choice where there is a good and a bad option, is a poorly designed choice IMO. It does not make players think, it allows people to mindlessly play through RPGs without actually having to define or evaluate the morality or values of the characters they are roleplaying. RPGs should be thought provoking and challenge players to dig into their characters and define them through hard choices.


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#268
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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True. Then again, it wasn't an RPG.

 

Pretty much.



#269
Revan Reborn

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"Pure speculation?" I think not. As I said, there are a number of in game reasons why I believe this is so, but your posts so far suggest you would summarily dismiss them, so I don't see the point. I will say your view of KOTOR2 seems heavily predicated on Kreia being a morally ambiguous character who ultimately had unique insights into the force. My own view of it is predicated on Kreia's morality not being ambiguous at all. She is a villain very much in the vein of the Emporer in that she manipulates things behind the scenes to achieve a very specific Dark side goal. As others have said though, we should get back to the subject.


I would argue that Bioware has a number of morally ambiguous choices but that they have largely done a better job of making the results predictable, if one is paying attention, than the original example you provided. I for one hope that trend continues.

Feel free to provide your evidence. I have played KotOR II more times than I can count and I have never once seen anything to suggest the entire situation was a "set up." I find it interesting when people find an act to be underwhelming or one-dimensional, they must then move to any excuse to undermine the game to better support their argument.

 

I would argue you missed the entire point of KotOR II then. Kreia was neither Jedi or Sith. Neither good or bad. She was something entirely different. That was the point. You really think anyone would approve of destroying the Force itself? That's essentially suicide if it truly binds the galaxy and all living things together.

 

Kreia had no allies. No companions. That's why she had so much in common with the Exile, who had also been betrayed by the Jedi Order. She felt because of that common experience, perhaps the Exile would understand her unique perspective and understanding of the galaxy. If anything, Kreia was an anti-hero and a victim.

 

Ambiguity and predictability do not mesh. That's a contradiction. If something is morally ambiguous, there should not be an easy answer, because the future is uncertain and unpredictable. Some of the best choices in a BioWare game were when dealing with the Star Map on Kashyyyk, Hawke dealing with Anders blowing up the Chantry, moments that truly made you pause and heavily consider what to actually do. The first Mass Effect, while I love the game, was absolutely terrible in terms of morality as the game was so black (renegade) and white (paragon). BioWare could take cues from CDPR in making unpredictable scenarios and choices where there is not a winner. In real life, we can't have our cake and eat it too. Why should we in a video game trying to emulate human interactions?

 

<snip>

You shouldn't be blaming GL for the Exile's light side path being canon. You should really blame Drew Karphyshyn, as he was solely responsible for how Revan and the Exile ended up post-KotOR and into SWTOR. Personally, I was fine with them both being Jedi, as there was a much greater darkness looming from behind the scenes.

 

One aspect KotOR II somewhat failed in was that Kreia was generally more approving if you chose Dark Side choices. This wasn't even necessarily because she wanted you to be a Sith (she hated the Sith just as much as she hated the Jedi), but rather Kreia saw everyone as her enemy, and it was merely coincidental that the choices better represented her mentality.

 

I'd love to see either BioWare and Obsidian develop a KotOR III and really build upon the amazing universe they built collectively (we can just disregard SWTOR).