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Would you have preferred The Keep as an option in the game’s menu screen rather than a separate website?


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#1
coelacyanth

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Now that the open beta is out I thought I’d ask this question. It’s a tricky topic since on the surface it might feel like a complaint/rant topic but it is far from it. I absolutely love the keep and appreciate the hard work that has gone into developing it. The post isn't about disparaging those efforts but rather trying to elicit an opinion if players are okay with these efforts in form of a website or if they would have preferred them in the game option menu.

 

 

For all intents and purposes the keep essentially is a world state creator where veterans and newcomers alike are made to create the world they want their inquisitor to be in or what it would have been from their past game decisions. The “import” feature of the keep rather than importing the past decisions (and I understand why it can’t) imports rather moot flags such as:-

 

a.      Warden/Hawke’s name – Even in the previous game while playing as Warden or Hawke, the protagonist was never referred to by their user created names but always as The Warden/ Hero of Fereldan/ The Champion etc.

 

b.      Background – It’s something that can be chosen in the keep while creating a hero anyways.

 

c.       Portrait- Since Warden will not make a physical appearance and Hawke can be customized (as stated by devs), this feature doesn’t seem to have that much weight. Also considering the shift from eclipse to frostbite engine, wonder if the import process would have been a smooth one without forcing a rework on the imported face, which essentially is they are allowing in the first place for Hawke.

 

d.     Previous games’ achievements – This one I concede but personally I would be more worried about the inquisition’s achievement popping up in the game. As long as my previous achievements have unlocked in previous games and are, say, synced to my bsn legacy account, I am alright if they don’t import over to inquisition for few points.

 

 

Thus “import” is not what the import was like in previous bioware games. Again, I know and understand fully well why it can’t be like that. The point is that import feature feels a bit shallow for what it imports and what keep allows us to do is perhaps (personally speaking) too important to have been kept separate as a website under the pretext of ‘importing from previous games’ feature. Also it is important to note that the keep imports from the legacy site and not from the direct save files thus all of the keep imports being done to the website could well have been done to the in-game world state creator with user logged into their respective origin/bsn accounts.

 

 

Would you have preferred The Keep as an integrated feature in the game menu screen since it essentially is as important, if not less, as the character creator? I mean it creates the world which my inquisitor will be in. If it were an option below the main campaign would that make any difference in your inquisition experience in terms of ease of accessibility or your centralized control over how the game behaves?

 

The reason I ask this is that given how the keep has been developed into and what it does, It feel a bit odd in logging into a website with the game fired up on my pc to fiddle with an important aspect of the game, and then connect online in-game to let those changes take place in my game and continue. I mean it is all cool right now but I wonder if the novelty will start to wear off and say after couple of playthroughs or 3-4 years down the line, a person might just want to change the world state without being bothered to connect to an external website.

 

 But that is just how I feel and would like to know other opinions on it. 


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#2
AlanC9

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I don't see why it matters where the Keep is.


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#3
Devil's Avocado

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Ideally yes, but the reason why I can see them going this way is long term use. The Keep isn't just for DAI but for all future games. If it was an app or something that can be done in game, they would have to recreate it from time to time when a new engine appeared. Having a centralized online app means updates are easier for them. Also I expect bug fixes would be harder.


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#4
Verly

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no I would not want it in the game itself.  on it's own website any issues can be fixed by the next week or so. if it was in the game proper it would have to go through a certification process every time they wanted to update it.. no thanks. 


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#5
Ranadiel Marius

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No because I'd have to remake it each new game. Easier in the long term to use a web based solution.
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#6
auronvigo

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No. There were issues before with having the saves imported from the games themselves. Such as Nathaniel. Now it can be monitored, fixed, adjusted, and improved.



#7
LastFadingSmile

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Not at all. When I load up the game, I'd prefer to just be able to get right into it and not have to spend however long fiddling with past choices before I can even begin--I'm already going to spend a tonne of time in the character creator as it is. ;p This way I can make world states at my leisure, and as mentioned above, they can continue to fix and add to it far more easily long after the game ships. And being as the Keep is designed as a long-term solution for all games going forward, it's far more elegant and less time-consuming for both devs and users to have it all handled by an external website than to have to build that into the game clients of subsequent titles.
 


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#8
CoffeeElemental

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Having the keep also available in in-game browser at least for preview would be nice but probably too late for that.



#9
Shadowson

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No. A website means that if there is an error, update website and *poof* fixed.

An option in the game means if there is an error, create patch, send patch to microsoft, sony, they check patch, find patch is ok, send patch to game once they are paid for bandwidth, or if they find issue with patch, send back to bioware, bioware work on patch some more send back to microsoft/sony and blah blah blah.



#10
coelacyanth

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no I would not want it in the game itself.  on it's own website any issues can be fixed by the next week or so. if it was in the game proper it would have to go through a certification process every time they wanted to update it.. no thanks. 

 

Fair enough. A point that I admit I overlooked. 

 

Although, isn't this certification process true for every patch that a developer releases for the game bug fix? And, if there is some addition/modification on the keep website wouldn't that anyways require a patch for the game files to be able to recognize those tweaks in the game? I am no technical expert so i might be wrong here.



#11
Justin Edmond

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Fair enough. A point that I admit I overlooked. 

 

I think a lot of alpha testers would have been introduced to this as for the last several months we'd release new versions every 2 weeks, with new features, and content (questions/answers/rules.)

 

Its one of the big advantages to web!

Also we've designed around the idea that we should be able to fix issues without patching the game :)


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#12
Lieutenant Kurin

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My answer to OP is no. The Keep allows me to make several (several is an important note), separate persistent worlds, that will always be available for perusal. What I mean is not only I can edit them now (before I forget if I'm a first timer), but they are saved somewhere else other than my Inquisition save. I can always rechange things, reedit things and prepare for DAI and beyond even if I sell DAI.

 

Imagine if this were part of DAI, and then every game forward (like DA4) I was forced to do the same thing over and over, reentering my world. Note that cross-platform switching is not only a serious problem now, but as Inquisition is on last-gen platforms, DA4 is going to have cross-platform switching too. So save importing is again not a solution (good thing too as save importing was buggy as all hell).

 

Plus, I will also be able to use the Keep FOR DAI. As in if I don't like something I did during a playthrough, I can just switch it.

 

I get that people wanted save importing back, but understand that the internet is actually the best place for our worlds. We'll never lose them, or forget them, or be forced to recreate them ad nauseam, or be forced to deal with buggy decisions, or decisions that we don't want there anymore. And I am thrilled that I'm making 9 wholly different Thedas' for 9 wholly different Inquisitors, right now, while checking my Journal in previous games at the same time and I will never ever be forced to remember every mundane decision here on out. Add that to the fact I can share them with friends, and Maker be praised, the Keep is a genius creation.

 

As for first names, and portraits, they are both important. The portrait gives me a clue as to what my Hawke/Warden looked like so if I have to recreate them in Inquisiton's CC, I CAN, instead of being forced to do it from memory. And for first names, they are also important. These are MY WARDENS/CHAMPIONS. Their names were given to them for a reason, and should I meet my characters again, I'd love their mouseover information to include their first name, possibly Journals too.


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#13
katerinafm

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The Keep is too big and constantly updating to be inside DAI. It will also be used in future games, not just DAI. The Keep also makes it possible for people to play around with the Keep whenever, not just on their console of choice and in-game. I think it's a good deal all around.



#14
LiquidLyrium

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I hadn't thought about the patch issue, but I will echo the sentiment stated previously: the Keep is meant to be a long-term solution to hanging on to Dragon Age plot information. Even if there was an in-game interface, the very nature of the problem they were solving would have almost certainly necessitated a website or a server to store the information on anyway.

 

Also I kind of like doing all the work before-hand, that way I don't have to spend 20-30 minutes after I boot up my game tweaking my worldstate. Though I understand that people who might not have internet connections or reliable internet connections to their consoles might feel otherwise.



#15
Lieutenant Kurin

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I hadn't thought about the patch issue, but I will echo the sentiment stated previously: the Keep is meant to be a long-term solution to hanging on to Dragon Age plot information. Even if there was an in-game interface, the very nature of the problem they were solving would have almost certainly necessitated a website or a server to store the information on anyway.

 

Also I kind of like doing all the work before-hand, that way I don't have to spend 20-30 minutes after I boot up my game tweaking my worldstate. Though I understand that people who might not have internet connections or reliable internet connections to their consoles might feel otherwise.

 

Honestly, I feel the best solution to lack of internet at home would be to make a file with the Keep that you could put on a USB, and then use that for your console. That way it only requires a trip to the library. Who knows, maybe by DA4 :rolleyes:?



#16
Gwyvian

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Short answer: No, I prefer the Keep the way it is!

 

Long answer: The Keep is a great place for keeping a record of all I've done and what I would have wanted to do, but more importantly it acts like a unifying staging ground that takes into consideration all the things that might confuse me or slip my attention (not that much does when it comes to DA, but it's the principle of the thing!) I like having so much control over my "record" and being able to do what I've always done the long way so far, i.e. playing new characters again and again just to get certain results and outcomes.

 

This is like the kind of lore database that brings DA to a new level, even if not all these plot points are integrated in the near future into new DA games, the fact that both the devs and the players have this resource organizes our thoughts and objectives as to what we want to and *could* potentially include is a huge asset. This method gives opportunity for our imports to be complex, infinitely malleable and upgradable, making for instantaneous changes that can be brought into DAI (and future DA games) without having the restriction of having to stick to what we've actually done, or possibly missed in our gaming in the past.

 

It's nice to have my achievements, to acknowledge my past Wardens and Hawkes, but recreating history as we wish, being guided by an algorithm that sifts out the contradictions I may have inadvertently made lets me summarize both games in an overview fashion that's difficult to keep track of while in-game. Not to mention the fact that already I have noticed some achievements and in-game results/consequences that I wasn't even aware of, given my overall playing preferences, but they are hinted at enough here to make me curious and want to go back to try it out. I like that immensely.

 

Most importantly, however, I like the fact that the Keep represents *all* DA games, whether past or future games to come - it's not just about DAI, it's a system that's usable for any number of future DA games. Including a new title to import into is much easier to make happen than trying to mesh DAI and the next DA game together, considering improvements, design changes and whatnot.

 

So no, I don't think that the Keep should have been an in-game import affair - this is improvement, and it's a tidy way to include past DA games without bugs, problems arising from differences between the games' designs and all manner of other oddities that generally come hand-in-hand with regular imports.


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#17
DAJB

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Well, it looks like most people have gone with "no", so - just to go against the flow - yes!

 

Having to create something online in order to play a game which is offline really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I seem to remember that one of the big objections to MS's proposal to make all XB1 games online only was that a lot of people had poor or no internet access (troops based overseas were a case in point). By placing the Keep online, therefore, those gamers will be unable to recreate their previous World States and will therefore have a diminished DA:I experience.

 

The only argument for having it online, I guess, is that the Keep is presumably intended to serve a purpose beyond DA:I. For the game itself though, yes, I'd much rather have everything offline and on the disk.


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#18
Kantr

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Well, it looks like most people have gone with "no", so - just to go against the flow - yes!

 

Having to create something online in order to play a game which is offline really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I seem to remember that one of the big objections to MS's proposal to make all XB1 games online only was that a lot of people had poor or no internet access (troops based overseas were a case in point). By placing the Keep online, therefore, those gamers will be unable to recreate their previous World States and will therefore have a diminished DA:I experience.

 

The only argument for having it online, I guess, is that the Keep is presumably intended to serve a purpose beyond DA:I. For the game itself though, yes, I'd much rather have everything offline and on the disk.

Yet that would be a terrible idea. No updates for you. No tracking of what you did in-game and no import to the next game



#19
DAJB

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Yet that would be a terrible idea. No updates for you. No tracking of what you did in-game and no import to the next game

That's one view.

 

The counter-argument (well, one counter-argument!) is that, if someone wants to start a new game with a different World State at some time in the future, and they're having problems with their internet connection, they won't be able to.

 

It's swings and roundabouts. Both have advantages and disadvantages. I can see there's room for a difference of opinion but, on balance, I like to have what I've paid for in my grubby little mitts!  ;-)


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#20
Kantr

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Hm well. I'd counter that you are more likely to be without your console than internet connection :)



#21
AlexJK

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Would you have preferred The Keep as an integrated feature in the game menu screen since it essentially is as important, if not less, as the character creator?


No. The Keep is designed to contain more information than just those choices from DAO and DA2, and the data from it will be useful to more products later in the Dragon Age line than just DAI. I'd rather have that information available to me on a website, which I can access from any device (not just sitting in front of my gaming platform of choice), and free of the patching, update and portability restrictions that the game itself necessarily has.



#22
SarEnyaDor

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Yes and no.

 

I went from June 2013 until March 2014 without home internet and it would have sucked if DAI came out during that time for me, personally. So, as someone who has spotty/slow connection at times (usually weather related and we are coming up on winter here) the option to do this in game would be awesome. But, the Keep is so much more than just a world state creator, and it will only get bigger, not smaller. It would be completely impractical to patch the game to fix it (patches I wouldn't get anyway if there was no internet) every time it was tweaked or updated.

 

I liked the suggestion up there about being able to save a world state from the Keep on to an USB very much, however, as that keeps it online, but also gives those with varying internet issues a way to work around them instead of just doing without. No clue how difficult that might be to implement though, so maybe it is more trouble than it is worth, but it does seem to be the best of both worlds kind of solution.

 

Food for future thought.

 

As of right now, I have access and am not bothered by it in the least, but I can guarantee you first snow storm that takes my internet away and I want to do a new game I will be lamenting it LOL


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#23
Helios969

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I kind of thought maybe, but Justin put forth good reasoning as to why not.  By and large I am pretty happy with the layout, choices, etc.  As long as the world states export day one into DAI I'll be totally good.  Net-based solution will also probably help them compile more meaningful statistics which by extension should help them produce expansions/dlc's/future games more desirable to a greater portion of the players.



#24
Ranadiel Marius

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Yes and no.

I went from June 2013 until March 2014 without home internet and it would have sucked if DAI came out during that time for me, personally. So, as someone who has spotty/slow connection at times (usually weather related and we are coming up on winter here) the option to do this in game would be awesome. But, the Keep is so much more than just a world state creator, and it will only get bigger, not smaller. It would be completely impractical to patch the game to fix it (patches I wouldn't get anyway if there was no internet) every time it was tweaked or updated.

I liked the suggestion up there about being able to save a world state from the Keep on to an USB very much, however, as that keeps it online, but also gives those with varying internet issues a way to work around them instead of just doing without. No clue how difficult that might be to implement though, so maybe it is more trouble than it is worth, but it does seem to be the best of both worlds kind of solution.

Food for future thought.

As of right now, I have access and am not bothered by it in the least, but I can guarantee you first snow storm that takes my internet away and I want to do a new game I will be lamenting it LOL

Pretty sure they have stated that the proposed USB solution is not going to happen. 90% certain it isn't even possible with consoles.
Edit: Even if possible, it would require a patch to DAI...so you know it would eequire an internet connection for longer than downloading a world state would require.

#25
Kantr

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Yes and no.

 

I went from June 2013 until March 2014 without home internet and it would have sucked if DAI came out during that time for me, personally. So, as someone who has spotty/slow connection at times (usually weather related and we are coming up on winter here) the option to do this in game would be awesome. But, the Keep is so much more than just a world state creator, and it will only get bigger, not smaller. It would be completely impractical to patch the game to fix it (patches I wouldn't get anyway if there was no internet) every time it was tweaked or updated.

 

I liked the suggestion up there about being able to save a world state from the Keep on to an USB very much, however, as that keeps it online, but also gives those with varying internet issues a way to work around them instead of just doing without. No clue how difficult that might be to implement though, so maybe it is more trouble than it is worth, but it does seem to be the best of both worlds kind of solution.

 

Food for future thought.

 

As of right now, I have access and am not bothered by it in the least, but I can guarantee you first snow storm that takes my internet away and I want to do a new game I will be lamenting it LOL

Problem is that if they were to work on it right now after saying there is no offline export.

It would not work as the game wasn't built to do that