133 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Strangely enough, she's an assassin, not a warrior.

 

Same difference, really. In the end, she still has to fight and stab people, even if it is an ambush.

[Who Knows]

I agree. I do feel like makeup should not be a must for every single character. And Aveline was frustrating because part of her arc was all about her discomfort with her looks which can be really offputting when I felt she was there for women that wanted to be like her. (I mean in part?) I don't mind pretty, many women want to be pretty. I don't mind pretty and buff. But I feel so sad with the "You are not very pretty, you need to feel bad and make yourself pretty" I don't know how many times me not wanting to be feminine equated to me "not caring about myself" to those around me.

I never got the impression that part of her arc was discomfort about her looks. It is brought up when Isabela constantly tries to insult Aveline by calling her mannish, but I never saw it anywhere else.

[Deathsbane]

 

If you are already well represented in ways that you would care about, then you wouldn't.

Mentioning sentient pigeons and being from mars is useless. When people talk about representation they mean actual people, not things that don't exist.

 

You seem to forget that there are people who WANT to include things in their works for representation's sake. Do you really mean to say that they shouldn't because you think it's disingenuous? There is no dichotomy here. People can write and draw what they want while also being inclusive.

 

I don't see how what I said reflects me being represented in way that I care about. I already said what I meant, I don't care at all I don't need representation to enjoy a form of media hence the example of a pigeon.

 

I'll say it this way, people should tell the story they want to tell but to include something that doesn't fit into your story for an external reason(representation sake) no matter what it is feels disingenuous to me. If a story is told for representation sake then good for them its fine by me. And no people cannot write and draw what they want and also be inclusive because by adding stipulation of inclusion they are forced to be inclusive, ergo they cannot draw whatever they want, they have to draw something that is inclusive.

[Adanu]

Granted.  But Korra would definitely fit into the "non gender stereotipical" group.

 

I would say that Cass fits into this role also, though we have seen a few heavy armored females in DA before.

 

Have we seen a heavy armored female elf before?  I don't recall one.

Korra fits into the stereotypical brash my way or the high way feminist group. I'm really, really hoping the last season gives her some wisdom.

[Who Knows]

 

I'll say it this way, people should tell the story they want to tell but to include something that doesn't fit into your story for an external reason(representation sake) no matter what it is feels disingenuous to me. If a story is told for representation sake then good for them its fine by me.

 

Can you actually give examples of things being included for representation (ie. not cheap laughs) that didn't make sense in the story?
I keep hearing about these hypothetical doomsday scenarios where inclusion ruins a story but never any real examples of that. Just fear mongering.

 

And no people cannot write and draw what they want and also be inclusive because by adding stipulation of inclusion they are forced to be inclusive, ergo they cannot draw whatever they want, they have to draw something that is inclusive.

This really doesn't make any sense to me. If you WANT to be inclusive, you aren't being FORCED. Not that being "forced" actually happens. No one actually points a gun to a writer or artist's head and commands them to put gay people or PoC in the stories and artwork they create. This fear about people being forced to put certain characters in their work seems very nonsensical.

[Deathsbane]

Can you actually give examples of things being included for representation (ie. not cheap laughs) that didn't make sense in the story?
I keep hearing about these hypothetical doomsday scenarios where inclusion ruins a story but never any real examples of that. Just fear mongering.

 

 

 

This really doesn't make any sense to me. If you WANT to be inclusive, you aren't being FORCED. Not that being "forced" actually happens. No one actually points a gun to a writer or artist's head and commands them to put gay people or PoC in the stories and artwork they create. This fear about people being forced to put certain characters in their work seems very nonsensical.

 

Doomsday scenarios, Fear Mongering? What did I say that even remotely suggests this? There are many examples of half fleshed characters that exist in media just to fulfill a certain role i.e your token black guy or the person that performs your exposition for the audience. As to whether the characters were put in there for representation one can never know save for the creators.

 

Again (and hopefully for the last time) where did I mention any of this nonsense you are going on about? What fear? Who is afraid here? If you want to discuss then let's discuss and stop drawing conclusions from what I have written, it is counter productive. You wrote "People can write and draw what they want while also being inclusive." I This is incorrect, I'll make it plain one cannot write and draw what they want while having parameters guiding what it is they are doing, If they set out to be inclusive then they are doing what they want. If they have a want to create a piece of art that isn't meant to be inclusive then your statement fails as it isn't inclusive. This is not hard to grasp.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'd like to see a woman like "Hammer" from Fable 2, someone who's built to look like a warrior rather than built to look sexy and then be given a sword. I would like to see a lot more variety in female characters in general. Let there be morbidly obese merchant women with 8 rings on each finger and a giant ruff type collar, women who are tall and bony and horse-faced, women who are old and wrinkled and bent over and actually look old (giving a hot young women light crows feet and grey hair does not make her old BW...), women who are heavily scarred the way Zaeed was, etc...In addition to the young, sexy, perfect model-featured women that already exist in games. I'd also like to see more characters of differing ethnicities. Vivienne is awesome and a great start, but I'd still like to see more non-white people to shake things up.

I didn't like the design of Hammer. Fable 2 was ridiculous in muscle mass for strength, and sadly Hammer reflected that and was too muscular. 

[Ser Jynx]

She was the hero of strength. that being said her design should embody that. hence the muscle.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

She was the hero of strength. that being said her design should embody that. hence the muscle.

I know, but it was too much in my opinion. Felt the same way about the male or female hero who went full strength.

[Ser Jynx]

funny i just literally finished another play-through

 

don't like muscles don't buy strength or discard it there are other ways to fight

 

btw hammer is great

[Hanako Ikezawa]

funny i just literally finished another play-through

 

don't like muscles don't buy strength or discard it there are other ways to fight

 

btw hammer is great

I never said Hammer wasn't great. I just said I didn't like the character design for her. 

[Nefla]

Doomsday scenarios, Fear Mongering? What did I say that even remotely suggests this? There are many examples of half fleshed characters that exist in media just to fulfill a certain role i.e your token black guy or the person that performs your exposition for the audience. As to whether the characters were put in there for representation one can never know save for the creators.

 

Again (and hopefully for the last time) where did I mention any of this nonsense you are going on about? What fear? Who is afraid here? If you want to discuss then let's discuss and stop drawing conclusions from what I have written, it is counter productive. You wrote "People can write and draw what they want while also being inclusive." I This is incorrect, I'll make it plain one cannot write and draw what they want while having parameters guiding what it is they are doing, If they set out to be inclusive then they are doing what they want. If they have a want to create a piece of art that isn't meant to be inclusive then your statement fails as it isn't inclusive. This is not hard to grasp.

Do you really think every company that made a protagonist who was a generic straight white male with short dark hair and stubble, and an athletic but not body builder frame made that character because that's what they really wanted to do? That's what their creativity came up with, that's what they poured their heart and soul into designing? Keeping the main characters within the extremely restrictive "safe" guideline of the "focus test guy" is a lot more stifling than having your parameters be "anything we can come up with, sky's the limit except that one same guy." Also, something is inclusive if it includes. The thought process behind it doesn't matter. If a game lets you play female characters and has good female companions and NPCs it's inclusive of women, even if the game devs think girls have cooties and only did it because their boss told them to. A game where you can only be a man and where the female characters are damsels in distress is NOT inclusive towards women. It doesn't matter if the game devs think women are great and equal partners. The end result is what matters as far as inclusiveness.

 

It's really complicated and theres whole sociology on it, but really the short of it is validation. There is a difference between having characters like you at many different levels and not needing more, but many studies show that even children gain lower self esteem from not seeing characters like them in cartoons where they show such things. (Spongebob characters don't really have racial features, but they do have gender for example) Also you start identifying with other people other than yourself.

When I was younger, I hated being a woman. Men got friends, women were just catty to their friends. Men got to do stuff, women were just vapid. NONE of this is true. Most of my friends were girls, and boys were way catty to me, but media in general made it hard for me to identify with my gender. This leads to wide lower self esteem for women. Called internalized misogny and a whole bunch of people get it because they start believing everything told to them, even the implied stuff that is subtle. As a little girl I prayed to be a boy. I am not Trans, who have it even harder in all regards. I just generally thought that being a woman meant being unhappy. Boys were better because they were boys.

 

I grew up. But seeing yourself as a hero and not something lesser matters. More women see movies, but most movies are about men, because as the centers of all media, women are trained early to identify with men more than each other. If there is an odd number of characters, that have a mixed group of genders, women will always have the lesser number. In a group of 3, usually only one will be a girl. "Not like other women" is both a brag and a compliment for this reason. As a lesbian seeing someone validate me, when constantly I am brought down is important. Every single day a straight person has tons of validation saying they can be happy and find love, or at least being straight is good. Not only do gay people rarely receive that in any media, but life likes to remind them of the opposite. As much as LGBT people rail against ex-gay camps, many people join them to feel "normal" or because they feel like they are wrong or can't be happy.

 

This is true of all "minorities" many of whom are only minorities when it comes to media. When you have basic validation every day, it is hard to imagine what a complete lack of any support in the media culture around you feels like. Generally it leads to lower self esteem, sadness, and questioning of self worth.

Are you me? Because this is exactly how my childhood went and by the time I was a teenager I also wanted to be a boy because I believed that girls sucked, were weak, catty, bad at everything, etc...You can only hear "no, you can't do this you're a girl" or "you can't have this, you're a girl," when the teacher asks for two strong volunteers to help move something and you step forward and they wave you away "no, we need two boys" etc...so many times. When all of the cool, strong, smart, relatable characters in every book, movie and show are male and the female characters are just arm candy and there to be rescued, it forms your opinion of yourself. When society sees you only one way and every piece of media and every person (who has also been conditioned to think that way) reinforces it, you can't not be shaped by it.

[Aryvine]

I know, but it was too much in my opinion. Felt the same way about the male or female hero who went full strength.

That's exactly why I discarded my strength levels. The hero fares well with just ranged and magic alone, and even the melee attacks weren't useless at the minimum level. I'm glad they represented strength the way they did - if you want exceptional brute strength then your body will reflect that. And I'm especially glad they didn't skimp on that for the female protagonists as well, Hammer included.

Personally I didn't like to be that bulky so I gave up the strength, but I like Hammer just the way she is.

(On a side note, that game is still so beautiful, every scene is like a pretty painting. I love the art style.)

[Nefla]

I didn't like the design of Hammer. Fable 2 was ridiculous in muscle mass for strength, and sadly Hammer reflected that and was too muscular. 

She was a lot more believable than most male strength representing video game characters. She also had a layer of fat over her muscle which reminds me of a lot of female weightlifters, strongman competitors, sumo, etc...Overall she was a cool character with a refreshing design imo.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Are you me? Because this is exactly how my childhood went and by the time I was a teenager I also wanted to be a boy because I believed that girls sucked, were weak, catty, bad at everything, etc...You can only hear "no, you can't do this you're a girl" or "you can't have this, you're a girl," when the teacher asks for two strong volunteers to help move something and you step forward and they wave you away "no, we need two boys" etc...so many times. When all of the cool, strong, smart, relatable characters in every book, movie and show are male and the female characters are just arm candy and there to be rescued, it forms your opinion of yourself. When society sees you only one way and every piece of media and every person (who has also been conditioned to think that way) reinforces it, you can't not be shaped by it.

And sadly, it goes the other way as well. With all these media showing what a boy/man should be, if a boy/man is not those things they can be ostracized by others. 

[Nefla]

And sadly, it goes the other way as well. With all these media showing what a boy/man should be, if a boy/man is not those things they can be ostracized by others.

True, but at least a boy has more wiggle room. If you're a woman and you're not beautiful then no matter what other skills you have, you're worthless. Video games reflect this mindset to the extreme so in those rare instances where a female character is just a normal person or even "ugly" looking and really cool, capable, and fleshed out where it's her skills and personality that shine and she wasnt designed to be oogled...well it's nice to see once in a while because it sure doesnt happen often.

[Tex]

Not to be a downer, but this is a very steortypical trope http://tvtropes.org/...Main/BrawnHilda but I see your point. We already have several female tropes.
Sera http://tvtropes.org/...ain/ActionGirl 
Cassandra http://tvtropes.org/...eanneDArchetype
Morrigan http://tvtropes.org/...adyOfBlackMagic
Isabella http://tvtropes.org/...Main/PirateGirl
Lelianna http://tvtropes.org/....php/Main/SheFu
Maybe not perfect fit. But you can very easily see the resemblence in the tropes.  The same goes for the male charaters. Honestly. There are enough tropes to fit them all. one way or another. So Sterotypical? You mean "Women = Weak but agilie and smart and cute" and "Men = Strong, dumb, slow and focused" Well. We don't really have that in dragon age.

Please do Not speak of things you do not understand a marvel such as Morrigan should not be squeezed into anything so triveual let alone a trope

[Tex]

I'm for this too, but I just through I'd point out that Dorian is the Thedas version of South Asian, so you're actually getting two POC companions this time. (Also there was Isabela last time.)

Please let us not forget Cassandra is not supposed to be white. You can be forgiven for not adding Cass to the list of POC but how could you forget the marvellous Josephine Montilyet who is most defiantly a person of colour as well as a strong willed and independent female character who also happens to be a bisexual character is truly disheartening.

[Auztin]

I honestly don't understand the point in representation.I mean why do people want to represented media.Is it self esteem issue?I'm misanthropic.I just think people of all races,genders,& etc should stop looking for representation & just be them damn selves without listening to what some guy or some chick said down the street.If you let what someone thinks of you,get to you it's your problem.

Back on topic:How about we get a gay noble family of warriors who rule with the chantry & elven serial rapist who is a female rogue trying to right the wrongs of Humans by raping then killing them or tranvestite Mage with a love for violence but is noble.You don't see that anywhere for inclusions sake.

[karushna5]

 

 

 

First off, thanks for the response, it was rather eloquent and gave me insight into where you are coming from.

 

To address the things you brought up. Perhaps I think differently than others do but I do not desire or require external validation, maybe it has to do with how I was raised (I am black and I grew up in Nigeria) I was taught and believe that I have authorship over myself and of course there are things outside of ones sphere of influence that can have an effect on them but for the most part we all have control over self.

 

It is this way of thinking that doesn't allow me to relate to someone having such a negative response to a lack of validation/presence of the invalidation. I have had my share of life experiences (none of which I will mention as this is not about me), people have heard me retell these experiences and consider them harsh or cruel or difficult. I don't see them as harsh or cruel, though they were difficult my reaction was not as you have described, I saw an obstacle and I overcame it by either removing the obstacle or adapting so that it was no longer so.

 

Having said that, I can understand facing difficulties pertaining to being different. It is the response of a 'lower self esteem, sadness, and questioning of self worth' that irks me to be frank. Why would the lack of validation in one aspect of ones life cripple them so? I believe we are all complex creatures, so for people in the LGBT community to feel this way because others don't validate one part of you confuses me. As a lesbian you are more than that you are first and foremost a person made up many different components so feeling this way because of one part of you makes no sense to me and I have experienced difficulties in life because of the color of my skin and where I was raised.

 

 

Happy to respond. It can be hard, and this is stuff that can be difficult for people to understand. It is nice people trying rather than throwing insults.

 

I think it is important, that your experiances matter to a great extent, and there is absolutely no trivializing that. But, also important to recognize that people can have different reactions to the same thing and their feelings matter as well. Isolation is the key here mostly when it comes to my sexuality, and intense media repetition when it came to my gender. While you can recognize you are the only author of your destiny, it is a tall order to not give in to some despair when everything around you says otherwise. Family, friends, having to hide who you are to have things many people take for granted. Losing people you love because of forces driving you apart. LGBT people have a very high risk of suicide, especially if people they love hate them for something they rarely have any control over. Partly due to the constant telling we are bad, cruel, and a danger, our very existance is often huge debate on whether we are evil by nature.

Many of us get angry because the anger is a way to deal with it, otherwise there is a huge amount of pain that often turns inward. Saying that in the face of hatred from family and friends, possibly outcasted from those you love, constantly worried that people will find out and the stress that involves. Having to disscuss with people you would die for what to do if they are unwillingly taken from you and put somewhere known for brainwashing you to think everything about you is evil, to hate yourself. Anyone who can do that and not feel affected is an amazing person, I don't doubt they can, or you could. I ask for the empathy to understand how that Might cause depression and low self worth. That not seeing anyone like you ever be happy, and how seeing people shown like you who are happy outside these situations might be important. To have heroes in fiction that are like you, and NOT summed up by that one trait.

 

So often that is how we are described. And we don't want that. We don't want a cliche bad stereotype of LGBT. We just want to be able to see someone with that one trait, portrayed noble or heroic. Or just a fully rounded person, as you so kindly recognize me being, because I want to be recognized as a lesbian AND a fully complex human being, something people have a hard time understanding. Someone happy and capable. It is because this one trait is so villainized everywhere around us, that we feel the need for someplace to offer the almost tangible property that media can give that it isn't. Validation is important for traits that are villainized. It is less that I summ myself up using this one trait, so much as this trait defines my life because it is so hated. Knowing me being this way and dealing with such things is not wrong or bad or weird is priceless. Being told since before I knew what a lesbian was, that I was bad because I seemed like a lesbian. I had to shape my life around this one trait because it is considered so bad and if anyone knows about it, that is all I will ever be to them. Every time I have a human fault and people know, it will always be connected to my sexuality. I have to carry the burden of never messing up or people taking it out on other lesbians/LGBT thinking my faults belong to all of us.

 

If nothing else, that is stressful. Once again, it is wonderful that underneath such a burden (and mine is much less than most other LGBT) people can flourish without any validation that the life they are leading has not been ruined by this one trait. But I once again ask for the empathy to understand how it may be possible, that depression, and low self esteem can happen because arguing for your humanity everyday gets exhausting, because sometimes in the morning you don't have the resolve to keep fighting with confidence, and instead wake to despair.

[Deathsbane]

Happy to respond. It can be hard, and this is stuff that can be difficult for people to understand. It is nice people trying rather than throwing insults.

 

I think it is important, that your experiances matter to a great extent, and there is absolutely no trivializing that. But, also important to recognize that people can have different reactions to the same thing and their feelings matter as well. Isolation is the key here mostly when it comes to my sexuality, and intense media repetition when it came to my gender. While you can recognize you are the only author of your destiny, it is a tall order to not give in to some despair when everything around you says otherwise. Family, friends, having to hide who you are to have things many people take for granted. Losing people you love because of forces driving you apart. LGBT people have a very high risk of suicide, especially if people they love hate them for something they rarely have any control over. Partly due to the constant telling we are bad, cruel, and a danger, our very existance is often huge debate on whether we are evil by nature.

Many of us get angry because the anger is a way to deal with it, otherwise there is a huge amount of pain that often turns inward. Saying that in the face of hatred from family and friends, possibly outcasted from those you love, constantly worried that people will find out and the stress that involves. Having to disscuss with people you would die for what to do if they are unwillingly taken from you and put somewhere known for brainwashing you to think everything about you is evil, to hate yourself. Anyone who can do that and not feel affected is an amazing person, I don't doubt they can, or you could. I ask for the empathy to understand how that Might cause depression and low self worth. That not seeing anyone like you ever be happy, and how seeing people shown like you who are happy outside these situations might be important. To have heroes in fiction that are like you, and NOT summed up by that one trait.

 

So often that is how we are described. And we don't want that. We don't want a cliche bad stereotype of LGBT. We just want to be able to see someone with that one trait, portrayed noble or heroic. Or just a fully rounded person, as you so kindly recognize me being, because I want to be recognized as a lesbian AND a fully complex human being, something people have a hard time understanding. Someone happy and capable. It is because this one trait is so villainized everywhere around us, that we feel the need for someplace to offer the almost tangible property that media can give that it isn't. Validation is important for traits that are villainized. It is less that I summ myself up using this one trait, so much as this trait defines my life because it is so hated. Knowing me being this way and dealing with such things is not wrong or bad or weird is priceless. Being told since before I knew what a lesbian was, that I was bad because I seemed like a lesbian. I had to shape my life around this one trait because it is considered so bad and if anyone knows about it, that is all I will ever be to them. Every time I have a human fault and people know, it will always be connected to my sexuality. I have to carry the burden of never messing up or people taking it out on other lesbians/LGBT thinking my faults belong to all of us.

 

If nothing else, that is stressful. Once again, it is wonderful that underneath such a burden (and mine is much less than most other LGBT) people can flourish without any validation that the life they are leading has not been ruined by this one trait. But I once again ask for the empathy to understand how it may be possible, that depression, and low self esteem can happen because arguing for your humanity everyday gets exhausting, because sometimes in the morning you don't have the resolve to keep fighting with confidence, and instead wake to despair.

 

^That, I can most certainly do. Thank you for the civilized discussion, I understand the crux of this desire much clearer now. I can indeed understand and can at least sympathize if not empathize with most of what you've written.

 

There is one thing I will still maintain though, no one can force you to feel any kind of way about yourself(or anything for that matter) except you. So while I empathize with the rest of it, I can only sympathize with this aspect because difficulties or not, you control how you feel about you and this will never change. I say this understanding that there are people without the strength of character to cope with said difficulties and while it is truly unfortunate and saddening, the world is not a utopia and it will never be so.

 

There will always be people that don't approve of things(be it race, gender etc), to change this(as people can only change if they desire it and some never will) would involve denying people their rights to their own opinions and the expressing of them and no matter how unfair that is, anyone that would deny those rights would no longer be in the right but would in fact be one of the villains of our story here on earth. I say this to show that the only solution to this whole thing lies within self, by exercising control over ones emotions you would become immune to most of these problems.

 

Lastly, I have a suggestion. Members of the LGBT community need to give people a reason to care about what they are going through, not an emotional reason but a factually based statistical one. Given my disposition of character and as an engineer, I respond to facts, if you want change it needs to be shown why your cause is worth getting behind and not with 'because it is the decent and human thing to do' I might agree with that statement but it does not move me because I have seen people be cruel and despicable to others in ways that are shocking, so an emotional argument holds even less water with me because of this. Show people why they should support you with evidence and factual stats.

 

Side note: I rather enjoyed discussing this topic with you, like I said earlier it has given me some insight into where you are coming from.

[mikeymoonshine]

When I was younger, I hated being a woman. Men got friends, women were just catty to their friends. Men got to do stuff, women were just vapid. NONE of this is true. Most of my friends were girls, and boys were way catty to me, but media in general made it hard for me to identify with my gender. This leads to wide lower self esteem for women. Called internalized misogny and a whole bunch of people get it because they start believing everything told to them, even the implied stuff that is subtle. As a little girl I prayed to be a boy. I am not Trans, who have it even harder in all regards. I just generally thought that being a woman meant being unhappy. Boys were better because they were boys.

 

Just to contrast this. I grew up in a community that seemed to promote the idea that boys were a stupid, annoying nuisance and girls were intelligent, mature and well behaved. I have no idea what "the media" was saying because I didn't really watch tv as a child or care about things like celebrities. I was quite badly bullied by pretty much everyone at school, when boys bullied me I got in trouble for fighting, when girls bulled me I got in trouble for bullying because they would say I bullied them. They were always believed over me even though I never said or did anything nasty to anybody else. I even got threatened with exclusion once because of the zero tolerance policy on bullying. 

 

Most of my female friends (coz luckily not everyone at my school was completely horrible) were expected to achieve by there parents and by the teachers, I was not. I was expected to not get through it at all or pass anything. Most of them did achieve and attended very good universities (two of them are at oxford). I failed almost everything because I hardly attended school at that point, I hated it there and I hated almost everyone there because they were horrible to me or they just didn't care about me. 

 

Now that all sounds very depressing but I am over it, I went on to do more education in a nicer environment and I did a lot better because of it. So It didn't ruin my life luckily. I am not attacking you or arguing anything you said I just think people sometimes over exaggerate the role of the media. I am not against change, I am all for it but changing the media isn't going to make all gender problems go away. Games should have more verity because it would be more interesting if they did and because it feels nice when whatever group you are in is acknowledged to exist without being made fun of. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dear god, will you please stop posting these shitty pony pictures already!?

Don't you say anything bad about Pinkie Pie!

[9TailsFox]

I really don't like hulking women.  Reason I can't get into the latest Avatar series (loved TLA though).

So I not the only who think Korra would be good hulk

Spoiler

 

[atamajakki]

It sucks that the extent of trans representation in DA is one character in the comics (who won't be in the game!) and a drag queen poorly played for laughs. Why exactly does Bioware get a LGBTQA+ flag again?