989 réponses à ce sujet

[Linkenski]

http://youtu.be/3xZMkX6qXvE?t=41m29s

 

Patrick Weekes says:

 

"I think looking back on it, with some time having passed, it's fascinating just to see the context of - unlike Dragon Age - giving you Commander Shepard for three games and... from the start of the third game we knew that - and foreshadowed pretty strongly - that 'this was the end of Shepard'. We knew we were gonna have Shepard sacrifice him or herself. ... "

 

and then he goes on to say:

 

" ... In the end, I think a lot of the fan-reaction - and this doesn't mean it's unjustified, at all - is just grief. It's some of the most raw responses I've gotten, have been people who are grieving, because a character that was really important to them died and, you know, died for a worthy cause -- but died, and that sucks!"

 

I'm just wondering what people think about this. In case you're out of the loop, Bioware did a Q&A panel at PAX last year for DA:I, but ended up getting some stuff said about the Ending Controversy.

 

Personally, I just can't help but think Weekes was also missing the point that most "Intellectuals" (as they called it) made. The ending never sucked because Shepard had to die (even though that's sad too) but it was disliked because of how universally wrong it was from a literary storytelling standpoint. Arguing that they "foreshadowed Shepard would die in ME3" is completely irrelevant becuase it's never why people hated the endings. They hated it because Shepard died for no reason because the choices that kills him are unncesessary.

 

 

Patrick Weeks is a Senior Writer on Mass Effect Trilogy, and now also Dragon Age Inquisition. He wrote characters like Mordin and Tali and Garrus (only in Mass Effect 2 and 3 for tali)

[SporkFu]

I dunno, I don't think those statements are wrong. Speaking for myself I was upset that Shepard died in the end. Not upset in a "OMG they killed shep! Those b******s!" kinda way, but just... sad. Hers was an incredible story over three games, just in the feels it gave me as I played it out. Didn't make me hate the games or anything like that. Hell I still play them to the exclusion of all my other games. I still talk about them here, joke about them, laugh at the silly things that are said and done in them, speculate about what coulda/shoulda/woulda been done, and about what the future holds... I'm still sad shep ain't gonna get all those little blue children -- feel free to insert your own variation of a happy ending here

 

EDIT: I still love/hate my phone. 

 

I didn't quite finish my thought here... Maybe those ending slides and Hackett's/Shep's/EDI's speeches are all we're gonna get, as far as an official "here's what happened next..." goes. I'm okay with that. I can headcanon with the best of 'em. I'm also excited to see what the next game will bring us... beyond the Mako, that is. 

 

But I'm still sad about shep. 

[dgcatanisiri]

Some was certainly grieving for Shepard and the lack of a happy 'off into the sunset' ending, sure.

 

BUT the ending was poorly executed - thematically, the final decision was unsatisfying because the build-up had just not been there. 'Organics versus synthetics' was not at the heart of the series. It was a theme, with elements scattered throughout, sure. But it wasn't the CORE theme of the trilogy. At least from where I stood, the story's heart was in predestination versus free will. As a result of that, from the fact that my view of the heart of the game was ignored for this other idea, there's not enough groundwork for what is presented as the finale of these three games to feel earned.

 

Likewise, the various decisions that were supposed to matter throughout the game amounted to unseen 'war assets.' We never got rachni soldiers fighting side by side with krogan berserkers against Reaper brutes. All the combat troops through the final push are unknown nameless soldiers we'd never seen before and had no connection to. None of what we were shown made us feel that the things we'd done, the decisions we'd made had an impact - this is going to 'show, don't tell,' how we should be shown the value of these decisions we've made, rather than being told that they're making a difference.

 

Shepard was only marginally the cause of the outrage. It was the story, the writing, the decisions made behind the scenes, that caused the backlash.

[Iakus]

First, yeah part of the reaction is undoubtedly that Shepard died.  It was a pretty douche thing to do to players after three games of "Your choices matter!" to having little option but to watch their protagonist burns.  

 

But second:  Shepard's death was not strongly foreshadowed.  Like, at all.  Unless Mr Weekes is using some definition of the term I'm not familiar with.  

 

And third, Yeah it sucks what happens to Shepard, but I found the cause so unworthy that it was little more than rubbing my face in the dirt.  Shepard gets to die, and I get to watch, as Shepard perpetrates a genocide unlike anything done in this cycle short of the Reapers.  Or perhaps hand the galaxy over to the reapers, or...well, "Synthesis"  

 

So yeah, with all due respect to him, he missed the point.  In part because Shepard died in a game where "your choices matter"  but also (perhaps more so) because of what Shepard's death brings about.

[KaiserShep]

I won't bother getting into another debate about how Shepard doesn't necessarily sacrifice him/herself, but just the same, I don't think having the protagonist die no matter what really affects whether or not our choices matter, because any number of circumstances can be written into a game where there is simply no choice at all in the character's fate, while still allowing the protagonist to have a profound effect on either the game's entire universe or a number of characters. Like, in DA:O, circumstances permitted the Warden to make a number of different choices that allowed him or her to survive the ordeal. But what if Morrigan didn't have any plan, or the Warden is female and there is no male Warden to take part in the ritual or be the one to sacrifice himself to slay the archdemon? Well, then your only other choice is to flee and leave Ferelden to its fate, but that's not much of a choice. Anyway, if the Warden died no matter what, there's still all those other lives that the Warden changed or potentially snuffed out.

[Display Name Owner]

Well I guess he's right isn't he? A lot of people wanted and still want a happy ending for their Shepard. I don't happen to be one of them, but that just happens to be my opinion. That said, it's certainly not the only reason for the ending backlash. The fact is the ending was lacklustre. It was made much better with the Extended Cut, and even still could have been better.

[ZipZap2000]

I didn't care that Shepard died the problem is the original endings induced an automated response in peoples psychology.

 

The players emotions are manipulated so successfully (that's all entertainment is really) that the confusing emotional flat note the game ended on caused them to react in a hostile way. I think any writer will tell you that you can't continually do the following. 

 

Raise hope then dash it, instil happiness then crush it, then rip someone's guts out but give them hope again, then rip their guts out again, then infect them with rage and sorrow, give them the will to persevere, take it away, make them believe again, then tell them it's all for nothing, Infect them with rage and sorrow again, take away more hope, give a little hope back, wave victory in their faces, take it away, infect them with rage and sorrow again, THEN give them the feeling of absolute hopelessness in the face of defeat, wave victory at a high cost in front of them.

 

At least you can't do all that and then deny the person reading/watching/playing an emotional release, while building them up to a heart pounding crescendo that fails to sustain itself.

 

While nowhere near as serious the reaction is similar to an emotionally abusive partner conditioning their spouse for a year or so and then suddenly one day disappearing into thin air with no explanation or even a note to say goodbye.

[dreamgazer]

I'm still itching to play these versions of ME1 and ME2 with all the player agency and choices impacting their plots. They sound fabulous.

Weekes knows what he's talking about. The ending is flawed, just like the rest of the game and the entire trilogy, but he gets the core of the angst. We'd be in a different place had Shepard been shown smirking and limping away from the rubble again in the Destroy ending.

[ImaginaryMatter]

My main reaction to the ending was one of confusion. Although my connection to the story was severed before the actual ending.

[Excella Gionne]

I was grieving over Control Ending. Not even lying... I cried like a *****!

[ZipZap2000]

@imaginarymatter I felt the same way. I sat there with a confused look turned off the xbox and spent a few days trying figure out what exactly had just happened and what the ending actually was. Thinking about it later and talking with other people I got pretty damn peeved about it. Then along came indoctrination.......

[Jorji Costava]

This is inevitably going to sound patronizing, but here goes: While I was no fan of the endings at all, "grief" seems like a pretty extreme reaction to have to the ending of a video game. That's not even to slight games in general: I think it would be equally extreme to experience real grief upon the ending of a book or movie, a bit like the Ernest Hemingway scene in Silver Linings Playbook.

 

My own problems with the ending (won't go over them here; honestly, I've lost interest in that particular debate) had little to do with Shepard's death, but if we're looking at things from a purely demographic point of view, I think Weekes is basically right. The reaction to the ending wasn't necessarily about its abruptness; KOTOR had a very abrupt ending but no one seemed to complain. Thematic concerns are the ones that were most important to me, but I don't think they're so deeply felt by wide enough a group of people to inspire a movement like Retake ME. And I don't think plot holes ever really account for anyone's emotional reaction to anything, so that pretty much leaves the overall downbeat nature of the ending (which includes but isn't limited to Shepard's death) as the major factor for why the ending was received the way it was.

[ImaginaryMatter]

This is inevitably going to sound patronizing, but here goes: While I was no fan of the endings at all, "grief" seems like a pretty extreme reaction to have to the ending of a video game. That's not even to slight games in general: I think it would be equally extreme to experience real grief upon the ending of a book or movie, a bit like the Ernest Hemingway scene in Silver Linings Playbook.

 

I was pretty sad at the end of Telltale's The Walking Dead.

[CosmicGnosis]

At least from where I stood, the story's heart was in predestination versus free will.

That's essentially what the ending is about. It's just presented in the form of Organics vs. Synthetics. Every choice forces you to consider what is inevitable and what is necessary to preserve the future of organic life.

[dgcatanisiri]

That's essentially what the ending is about. It's just presented in the form of Organics vs. Synthetics. Every choice forces you to consider what is inevitable and what is necessary to preserve the future of organic life.

 

No it's not. Or at least, it's only that way tangentially - yes, through the Catalyst's (very tortured) logic, there's an element of predestination versus free will, in that according to it, all prior cycles couldn't break away from that cycle and were Reaperized, and Shepard gets to say that this cycle can be different if given the chance to put it to the test. But as presented, the organics versus synthetics issue is working from the solution backwards - have life preserved in a Reaper shell so that it's not destroyed by its creations in the inevitable war. It's not actually challenging you with the approach of 'is it destined to be or can we change things?' It's not 'do we have free will or is everything already set in stone before it happens?' It's 'you're working against probability, based on the faulty data collected.'

 

The fact that the Catalyst's explanation of much of this had to be included through the Extended Cut emphasizes how out of step this is for me - they had to go in and edit it in a saving throw in an attempt to make it fit. That doesn't speak to it being something that I missed before it was spelled out, it's applying duct tape over the holes in the wall.

[NeroonWilliams]

First, yeah part of the reaction is undoubtedly that Shepard died.  It was a pretty douche thing to do to players after three games of "Your choices matter!" to having little option but to watch their protagonist burns.  

 

But second:  Shepard's death was not strongly foreshadowed.  Like, at all.  Unless Mr Weekes is using some definition of the term I'm not familiar with.  

 

And third, Yeah it sucks what happens to Shepard, but I found the cause so unworthy that it was little more than rubbing my face in the dirt.  Shepard gets to die, and I get to watch, as Shepard perpetrates a genocide unlike anything done in this cycle short of the Reapers.  Or perhaps hand the galaxy over to the reapers, or...well, "Synthesis"  

 

So yeah, with all due respect to him, he missed the point.  In part because Shepard died in a game where "your choices matter"  but also (perhaps more so) because of what Shepard's death brings about.

Gotta disagree with this.

 

They were pretty much clubbing us over the head with the dream sequences that Shep was going to die.  That and several references from Anderson and Hackett about Shep having died before.  If you didn't know that Shepard was going to die in the end, I submit that the player wasn't paying attention.

[Farangbaa]

Some of you really need to stop acting like Bioware murderd your family. It's a damned game.

[Farangbaa]

Gotta disagree with this.

 

They were pretty much clubbing us over the head with the dream sequences that Shep was going to die.  That and several references from Anderson and Hackett about Shep having died before.  If you didn't know that Shepard was going to die in the end, I submit that the player wasn't paying attention.

 

And spending a whole hour saying goodbye to people on Earth. A whole hour, if not more!

If that didn't foreshadow your death, I dunno what else would.

[Cobwebmaster]

Personally, I think becoming the "construct's replacement" (clever that - making the construct look like the child who got killed in Vancouver - sending vibes there) and stopping the reaper attacks was a good choice for my Shepard who played the game trying to preserve the integrity of both synthetics and organics as a sort of guardian of the galaxy which is how I played him.  That for me was a worthy cause and my discorporated Shepaerd would still be around to make sure the galaxy stayed on the right path.The destroy option was a pure military one and ignored the huge number of additonal lives that would entail. Victory at any price was never an option for me. The third, synthesis, was a non starter as it meant that my Shepard would intervene in any natural societal evolutionary process. Such a violent change! How could anyone predict the long term consequences? Certainly the "star child" couldn't! It had already tried twice and failed yet it thinks it's pet project would work this time because of Shepard's persona? Too risky! Unlike Legion, up until now all the "Star Child" had done was to try and wipe out every life form on the basis of some ancient experience

In all I thought the options were reasonable ones per se, but there was one missing where without destroying another 40 % of the galaxy's population Shepard got to walk away
 

[Daemul]

And spending a whole hour saying goodbye to people on Earth. A whole hour, if not more!
If that didn't foreshadow your death, I dunno what else would.

Not to mention Shepard at Thanes deathbed saying he'll see him soon, or Samara telling Shepard that his time is precious and he should spend it wisely, and with those who care for him.

I mean seriously, how many more hints do people need?

[Dubozz]

Ending was a ******* disaster not because shep died.

[Vazgen]

My Shepard didn't die. After Reaper forces were destroyed, Commander Bailey (who coordinated resistance in the Wards) along with other C-Sec officers found Shepard via his communication signal. He now works as a teacher in Grissom Academy alongside his love - Jack.

[Valmar]

My Shepard didn't die, either. Far as I know the 'breath' scene has always been there even before EC. Is the lack of a happier ending a problem for me? Yes, actually it is. Though to undermine everything else fundamentally wrong with the ending even from an objective standpoint by saying "its just because Shepard dies" is disrespectful or just plain blind. Not to mention incorrect on a objective level since Shepard doesn't always die in the end. Shepard's death isn't this absolute default thing that always happens.

 

That being said though I won't bother going into specifics about what was wrong with the ending. We've been almost unanimously saying what was wrong with ME3's ending for the past few years now. There are documents miles long pointing out all the issues. There are issues with the ending so painfully obvious and in-your-face that you don't even need to be a die-hard lore-nerd to spot them. Though again, this has been talked about to death at this point.

 

I have to be honest here, Bioware's constant skirting of the issue in this regard does NOTHING to encourage me or reassure me about the next title. I mean how can I expect them to even try not to make the same mistakes if they won't even acknowledge what was really wrong with it in the first place? The first step to overcoming a problem is admitting that there is a problem.

[Vazgen]

I'm pretty sure they did, just talking about it won't accomplish much and will somewhat alienate those fans who were OK with the endings. If not, they can just have a look at countless threads about problems with the endings and the games itself, posted in their official forums. The truth is, we care about games enough to talk about them for more than two years now. That's what's really important, if they can make us grow that much attached to the next game that'll be a success (or at least 90% of it, with remaining 10% left to the coherent and consistent story and ending)