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"Players were grieving because their Shepard died (for a worthy cause)" - Patrick Weekes


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#651
KaiserShep

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You guys are arguing around subjectivity. It's doomed to end in a stalemate.

Both ME1 and ME2's ending variants are also incredibly similar in appearance to one another, complete with color swaps and adjusted context in similar situations.

 

Thing is, a series with an overarching plot benefits more from having fixed outcomes for all but the final chapter. If anything, ME2's outcome should have been less varied when it came to the Collector base, because the plot simply could not depend on our ability to destroy it.


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#652
angol fear

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@ Reorte :

 

I've noticed that you didn't answered my question. So did I asked that? What's the relation between that and what we were talking about?

 

I asked that because you're talking about emotion as a starting point to criticism etc... everything you say is to defend a point of view that doesn't work at all. If I try to understand masterpieces from your point of view, there's a problem : it's all subjective, so there's no masterpiece. And you can say that Picasso doesn't know how to draw, or like VoteDC that "Le marteau sans maitre" is crap while it is established that it's a masterpiece (I know it's not what he said but he actually ignored what I was saying to say what he wanted to say, so let's do the same) etc... That's what I understand when I try to understand your point of view.

The fact that you didn't answered makes me think that you see that you're stuck in a dead end, so you don't go to that point because you'll reveal the limits of your point of view.

Maybe I'm wrong but you're the one who can show me that your point of view isn't a dead end.

 

And what I'm explaining is that in a fiction/ music/ etc... in art (I never talked about cooking books or anything else, so I don't get why sometimes you're talking about things we aren't talking!) there's both intellectual and emotional aspect. And criticism isn't about emotions first, criticism is about understanding the three level poietic, neutral and aesthesic. The starting point can't be the emotions otherwise you'll ignore the other level, that's what people do on the forum. Most people never talk about the game, they talk about their emotions and try to justify it by writing problems. It's very egoistic, centered on the ego. People aren't the heart of a story, it's the story which is the heart of itself. It's the writing that will decide if it's "good" or not, not the emotions.

 

Actually, emotional aspect and intellectual aspect aren't really opposed, they are part of the same thing. And writing and reading aren't really opposed too, they are part of the same thing (there's reading in writing and writing in reading). Things are not as simple as people want it to be, it's not black or white, we're not living in a fairy tales.



#653
Reorte

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You need to back out of your own dead end and before accusing other people of it.

Art is about emotional response. You can analyse the technical aspects all you wish but that doesn't tell you anything about whether it succeeds as art - a technical manual or scientific paper are full of technical accuracy (hopefully) but no emotion. I don't think that I mentioned cooking books so I'm not sure why you're saying that I did. The point is that technical perfection doesn't have to relate to emotion at all. When it comes to art the whole thing is subjective. "It's established as a masterpiece" just means that some other people say that it is. You cannot say that anything is one objectively and to imply that you can is straightjacketing you. Nailing the technical aspects of a work of art doesn't guarentee a masterpiece (although anything that fails to do so almost certainly can't be one) and emotion is subjective. You need to learn to deal with that, that not everything can be measured and accounted for.

You're stuck in a "not entirely separate so there's no separation at all" attitude. Failing to see any separation at all where greys exist isn't any better than viewing things in black and white when there are overlaps.
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#654
KaiserShep

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Oh man what is this crap about masterpieces and Picasso? If someone feels a story fails on both a technical and emotional level, then there's really not much more to it. I don't some in-depth analysis to understand why The Last Airbender movie is a piece of ****, for example. In the case of Mass Effect, there's a plethora of logical missteps in the plot throughout the entirety of the trilogy, but it's the feeling of dissonance that really irks a lot of people, though to be fair, the developers' notes promising what ME3 entailed kind of hinted that something funky and nonstandard was going to happen at the end. It's not terribly complicated. If my eyes roll back any further I'm going to sever an optic nerve.



#655
themikefest

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I call this a masterpeice. And this is a masterpiece. I might be the only one to call these a masterpiece, but whatever. 

 

Now to ME3

 

I share this poster's thoughts about the ending


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#656
Bakgrind

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Oh man what is this crap about masterpieces and Picasso? If someone feels a story fails on both a technical and emotional level, then there's really not much more to it. I don't some in-depth analysis to understand why The Last Airbender movie is a piece of ****, for example. In the case of Mass Effect, there's a plethora of logical missteps in the plot throughout the entirety of the trilogy, but it's the feeling of dissonance that really irks a lot of people, though to be fair, the developers' notes promising what ME3 entailed kind of hinted that something funky and nonstandard was going to happen at the end. It's not terribly complicated. If my eyes roll back any further I'm going to sever an optic nerve.

 

Personally I found the quote by  Picasso helped me get over the whole notion of the usage of the word Art concerning video gaming.  “We all know that Art is not truth. Art is a lie that makes us realize truth at least the truth that is given us to understand. The artist must know the manner whereby to convince others of the truthfulness of his lies.”


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#657
Valmar

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Personally I found the quote by  Picasso helped me get over the whole notion of the usage of the word Art concerning video gaming.  “We all know that Art is not truth. Art is a lie that makes us realize truth at least the truth that is given us to understand. The artist must know the manner whereby to convince others of the truthfulness of his lies.”

 

Wow. I understood none of that. Though it does seem like something someone like Picasso would say. Lol.



#658
Obadiah

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V for Vendetta has a simplified version of the quote, "Artists use lies to tell the truth."

 

Doesn't really address the quality of the "art" though, which was a bit of an extreme case in that movie - torture. In Evey's case, she left.



#659
Bakgrind

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Wow. I understood none of that. Though it does seem like something someone like Picasso would say. Lol.

 

 

That's the art in it lol :P   But  for me what he is really saying is that if the artist  expresses themselves in a way that makes you understand. makes you get it but more importantly makes you believe in what they are say or what they wrote is his definition of art.



#660
Daemul

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Not totally kaput, but the original ending pretty much illustrated the complete breakdown of galactic civilization. I'm glad that part was retcon'd to oblivion.

 

The breakdown of galactic civilization would be what would happen in reality though. The ME universe would become a dystopia. 



#661
Valmar

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That's the art in it lol :P   But  for me what he is really saying is that if the artist  expresses themselves in a way that makes you understand. makes you get it but more importantly makes you believe in what they are say or what they wrote is his definition of art.

Then by his own definition I shouldn''t consider his art 'art' because I certainly don't understand any of his work. It has and likely forever will remain an utter mystery to me.



#662
Farangbaa

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Yeah, lets talk about the 'quality' of art:

 

pg-32-mod-art-theiner.jpg


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#663
von uber

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I call this a masterpeice. And this is a masterpiece. I might be the only one to call these a masterpiece, but whatever. 

 

Now to ME3

 

I share this poster's thoughts about the ending

 

 

+ points for Led Zeppelin.

 

- points for Andre Rieu.

 

Although, this is the best Bolero performance.


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#664
themikefest

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+ points for Led Zeppelin.

 

- points for Andre Rieu.

 

Although, this is the best Bolero performance.

I remember seeing that. They did very well. I always enjoyed watching those two skate together



#665
von uber

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I remember seeing that. They did very well. I always enjoyed watching those two skate together

 

They were also secretly getting it on at the time.. kind of comes through in the dance if you ask me.



#666
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Yeah, lets talk about the 'quality' of art:

 

pg-32-mod-art-theiner.jpg

 


I could paint something like that. Black paint and a roller on canvas. Put it in a picture frame, and voila! Minimalist art!


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#667
themikefest

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I could paint something like that. Black paint and a roller on canvas. Put it in a picture frame, and voila! Minimalist art!

 

And most likely make millions because there is always someone out there that will buy it just to have bragging rights of being the only one to have art like that in his/her home.



#668
robsonwt

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Personally, I think becoming the "construct's replacement" (clever that - making the construct look like the child who got killed in Vancouver - sending vibes there) and stopping the reaper attacks was a good choice for my Shepard who played the game trying to preserve the integrity of both synthetics and organics as a sort of guardian of the galaxy which is how I played him.  That for me was a worthy cause and my discorporated Shepaerd would still be around to make sure the galaxy stayed on the right path.The destroy option was a pure military one and ignored the huge number of additonal lives that would entail. Victory at any price was never an option for me. The third, synthesis, was a non starter as it meant that my Shepard would intervene in any natural societal evolutionary process. Such a violent change! How could anyone predict the long term consequences? Certainly the "star child" couldn't! It had already tried twice and failed yet it thinks it's pet project would work this time because of Shepard's persona? Too risky! Unlike Legion, up until now all the "Star Child" had done was to try and wipe out every life form on the basis of some ancient experience

In all I thought the options were reasonable ones per se, but there was one missing where without destroying another 40 % of the galaxy's population Shepard got to walk away
 

 

Why do you think the Synthesis version is more oppressive than the Control version? I saw them exactly the opposite, where the Control version you get to control things and therefore you will had the chance for your ego to get in the way (Therefore, called "Control"). The Synthesis would seem much more selfless as you will loose yourself inside the solution and will not have a chance to "control" it, therefore no ego, and no chance to screw it with your human imperfection.

I think the Synthesis was the true Paragon choice. The Destroy was the pure Renegade choice, and the Control was the middle term that could work in a Paragon or Renegade way.



#669
Farangbaa

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I could paint something like that. Black paint and a roller on canvas. Put it in a picture frame, and voila! Minimalist art!

 

 

It's.. quite a famous painting :(

 

Brings tears to my eyes. Bitter, salty tears of sadness.



#670
sH0tgUn jUliA

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It probably took him 30 minutes to paint. Most of that was prep and clean up.



#671
SporkFu

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1. Spill bucket of black paint on canvas.

2. Frame it.

3. ???

4. Profit. 


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#672
Vazgen

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It's.. quite a famous painting :(

 

Brings tears to my eyes. Bitter, salty tears of sadness.

It's Black Square by Kazimir Malevich. 

What's important to consider about this piece is not the (quite simple) visualization but the timeline it was created in and the message it carried. In that regard it's kinda similar to ME3 endings


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#673
StarcloudSWG

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ME 2 had two distinctly different major ending variants. In one, Shepard lives. In the other Shepard dies. And in the one where Shepard dies, that saved game is NOT eligible for import into Mass Effect 3.



#674
Obadiah

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Yeah, lets talk about the 'quality' of art:
 
pg-32-mod-art-theiner.jpg

Wiki Art has a description. Apparently, it is one piece of many in a sequence:
http://www.wikiart.o...ack-square-1915

#675
Farangbaa

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Yes, and that's really great if you're into art. If you're not, its just a black square anyone can make.
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