989 réponses à ce sujet

[angol fear]

Well, art is produced primarily for its aesthetic appeal and to evoke emotional responses.

 

Partially, yes. But that's an incomplete answer. And you'll never answer why are there masterpieces with that answer.

[KaiserShep]

That's fine. This masterpiece discussion is for the birds anyway.

[Valmar]

Ok, we'll stop here. You don't know what art is. Sorry but "Art is about emotional response" and "When it comes to art the whole thing is subjective" that's totally absurd, that's basic way of thinking coming from some people who have never experienced art (writing, composing etc...) or even think a little about it.

 

People like you really exist in the world. Fascinating. You know, I might consider you art in this context.

 

"See here the representation of man's arrogance, pretentiousness and stubbornest."

 

Sounds like a politician. 

 

No, art isn't subjective. You just don't understand it. You don't GET it. It is not that art is subjective, you are just ignorant of its beauty. If you understood it, you'd like it. Art isn't subjective, how absurd indeed, yes. Yes, quite, indubitably, yes.

[Eterna]

How was it not necessary for Shepard to die? In every ending the citadel completely blows up except for control. 

[Eterna]

I had the same problem almost everyone else did, and that has become one of the most well known memes about the ending. I can't believe Weekes is unfamiliar with this meme.

 

 

Ironically said meme is wrong and proves many people still don't understand the ending. 

[voteDC]

Ironically said meme is wrong and proves many people still don't understand the ending. 

It may be highly simplified but the essential point is there.

The Catalyst wanted to stop synthetics from wiping out all organic life. Sure it entertained other possibilities but it was still attacking and wiping out races with synthetics so they couldn't build synthetics which would wipe out all organic life.

[Eterna]

It may be highly simplified but the essential point is there.

The Catalyst wanted to stop synthetics from wiping out all organic life. Sure it entertained other possibilities but it was still attacking and wiping out races with synthetics so they couldn't build synthetics which would wipe out all organic life.

 

The meme only works if your dumb and think all organic life somehow only means intelligent space faring species. 

 

Reapers do not harvest trees. 

[voteDC]

The Catalyst created synthetics to wipe out all 'advanced' organic life so they could not create synthetics which would then destroy all organic life.
 

You and I both know that 'trees' isn't what is meant. I think you are trying hard to dismiss the meme because you know it has a grain of truth at its core.

[Reorte]

Ok, we'll stop here. You don't know what art is. Sorry but "Art is about emotional response" and "When it comes to art the whole thing is subjective" that's totally absurd, that's basic way of thinking coming from some people who have never experienced art (writing, composing etc...) or even think a little about it.

Oh that's priceless. After all this you don't have a clue what art actually is! You appear to think it's something that can be entirely tecnically, logically assessed, that there's no matter of opinion about any of it, dear oh dear. It's got technical aspects that can be quantified but ultimately which technical qualities we want have to be subjective. It's the most absurd thing imaginable to say otherwise, it makes as much sense as saying that liking or disliking a particular food, or person, or place isn't subjective. All a masterpiece is is a work that meets the technical criteria and also has sufficient appeal. You really do not appear to have the slightest idea whatsoever about the human mind and emotion.

Your position would tell me that it's possible to come up with an algorithm for determining what a masterpiece is, without having to input any fundamentally arbitrary criteria into it (i.e. it could work out what a well-composed painting is, without you have to give it some rules for what well-composed would be). I shouldn't need to explain how ridiculous that is.

[Reorte]

How was it not necessary for Shepard to die? In every ending the citadel completely blows up except for control.

No it doesn't. Pre-EC it's pretty well wrecked, post-EC it's heavily damaged but still largely intact.

As for the whole synthetic meme, not that I like the endings at all and they're hugely flawed but I agree with you here. The Reapers are (supposedly) preserving organic life as a whole, they don't really care that much about individual species. Wiping out one (or many) to preserve the rest isn't contradictory.

[Eterna]

The Catalyst created synthetics to wipe out all 'advanced' organic life so they could not create synthetics which would then destroy all organic life.
 

 

 

Exactly, he created the reapers to harvest advanced organic life so that organic life could not wipe out all organic life.  All organic life being trees, flowers, bugs, birds, the numerous other alien species. Organic life does not just mean Asari, Batarian and Human. It is sacrificing a minority, space faring species, to protect the majority, being all other species of flora and fauna. 

 

The meme tries to mislead by implying the reapers were created to save advanced space faring organic life when this was never the case. 

[Valmar]

The Catalyst wanted to stop synthetics from wiping out all organic life. Sure it entertained other possibilities but it was still attacking and wiping out races with synthetics so they couldn't build synthetics which would wipe out all organic life.

 

 

The Catalyst created synthetics to wipe out all 'advanced' organic life so they could not create synthetics which would then destroy all organic life.

 

This is exactly the problem. Everyone has this misconception about the reaper's goals. The do not wipe out all advanced organic life. They harvest advanced civilizations and make them ascend. They preserve them and evolve them into immortal reapers. Yet everyone mistakenly views them as just machines just out to kill everyone. The reapers don't get nearly as much credit as they should, imo.

 

 

 

Oh that's priceless. After all this you don't have a clue what art actually is! You appear to think it's something that can be entirely tecnically, logically assessed, that there's no matter of opinion about any of it, dear oh dear. It's got technical aspects that can be quantified but ultimately which technical qualities we want have to be subjective. It's the most absurd thing imaginable to say otherwise, it makes as much sense as saying that liking or disliking a particular food, or person, or place isn't subjective. All a masterpiece is is a work that meets the technical criteria and also has sufficient appeal. You really do not appear to have the slightest idea whatsoever about the human mind and emotion.

 

You just don't understand true art, Reorte! Art is not subjective, if you don't like it then it is only because you do not UNDERSTAND it. You don't deserve art, good sir! I say, yes, indeed, quite.

 

 

Exactly, he created the reapers to harvest advanced organic life so that organic life could not wipe out all organic life.  All organic life being trees, flowers, bugs, birds, the numerous other alien species. Organic life does not just mean Asari, Batarian and Human. It is sacrificing a minority, space faring species, to project the majority, being all other species of flora and fauna. 

 

The meme tries to mislead by implying the reapers were created to save advanced space faring organic life when this was never the case. 

 

The meme attempts to mislead 

 

To say nothing of all the pre-flight species that are spared and given a chance to grow and expand without having the 'advanced' species preying on them or enslaving them. I can't be the only one happy we got a chance to evolve and advance as a species without fear of the prothean empire enslaving us all.

[Vazgen]

I'd like to add that it might be wise to put things in perspective. Synthetics destroying organics does not happen in one go (unless the organics were complete idiots). Take the current cycle, for example. Quarians create the geth, they kill the quarians, survivors go into exile, come back to fight the geth and defeat them (assuming Reapers don't intervene). But wait, someone out there creates other synthetics - EDI, Eva Core, David Archer. What Reapers say is that eventually the synthetics will win. If only because society is too reliant on technology and taking control of it can cause irreparable damage. 

[Valmar]

I'd like to add that it might be wise to put things in perspective. Synthetics destroying organics does not happen in one go (unless the organics were complete idiots). Take the current cycle, for example. Quarians create the geth, they kill the quarians, survivors go into exile, come back to fight the geth and defeat them (assuming Reapers don't intervene). But wait, someone out there creates other synthetics - EDI, Eva Core, David Archer. What Reapers say is that eventually the synthetics will win. If only because society is too reliant on technology and taking control of it can cause irreparable damage. 

 

B-b-but my Shepard had peace with quarians and geth for a whole week!?!1! EXPOSED

 

My weekend perspective clearly overrides the perspective of the multi-billion year old immortal intelligence and leviathan and reapers. I'm playing THE Commander Shepard, damnit.

[KaiserShep]

How was it not necessary for Shepard to die? In every ending the citadel completely blows up except for control. 

It's kind of a moot point, since even in the original ending, Shepard can survive. I'd chalk this up to BioWare simply not creating more varied cut scenes to reflect the specific effects, and Control does have a clear discrepancy in the EC since it's not seen coming apart at first, but then we see reapers rebuilding it. It makes me wonder why it's even necessary to have the Citadel break apart in every version of the endings when we fast forward to it being totally reassembled, even in Destroy, and it doesn't even always kill Shepard. Seems kinda pointless.

[KaiserShep]

I'd like to add that it might be wise to put things in perspective. Synthetics destroying organics does not happen in one go (unless the organics were complete idiots). Take the current cycle, for example. Quarians create the geth, they kill the quarians, survivors go into exile, come back to fight the geth and defeat them (assuming Reapers don't intervene). But wait, someone out there creates other synthetics - EDI, Eva Core, David Archer. What Reapers say is that eventually the synthetics will win. If only because society is too reliant on technology and taking control of it can cause irreparable damage. 

 

The question is, is this an absolute certainty or is it simply a matter of probability. There's no way that the Catalyst or anyone else can prove that this is something that will most certainly happen, only that it can happen. That it may have happened hundreds, even thousands of times does not change that. Any peace, even one people might suspect to be temporary, presents a problem with the assertion that it's inevitable. That peace can happen at all very much matters.

 

Anyway, I always had a problem with this idea of everlasting peace. I mean what the hell is that anyway? When the Dalatrass asks this to Shepard regarding the krogan, I wish I had the option to say "Everybody's gotta war sometime." So long as life exists, war exists, unless we all get a mandatory lobotomy upon birth from some higher entity.

[Valmar]

The question is, is this an absolute certainty or is it simply a matter of probability. There's no way that the Catalyst or anyone else can prove that this is something that will most certainly happen, only that it can happen. Any peace, even one people might suspect to be temporary, presents a problem with the assertion that it's inevitable. That peace can happen at all very much matters.

 

It's absolute in the Mass Effect universe, anyway.

 

The catalyst speaks in such broad terms that it is impossible for it to be wrong, honestly.

 

Also, just for clarification, the starbrat never says peace is impossible. Just that it will not last - and from the perspective of a being that is immortal and will be around for billions of years it is correct. Which is factually proven by the galaxy time and time again. Conflict is the rule of the cosmos. Even the protheans were aware of this.

[KaiserShep]

Also, just for clarification, the starbrat never says peace is impossible. Just that it will not last

 

And therein lies the problem I have with this idea. Everlasting peace is a sham. It'll never happen until we're all dead. When a story pushes otherwise, I have to turn off my brain to deflect the silliness.

[angol fear]

Oh that's priceless. After all this you don't have a clue what art actually is! 

 

Art is my job... 

 

 

Oh, I didn't see that one from Valmar : "It is not that art is subjective, you are just ignorant of its beauty." Impressive, really...

[Obadiah]

And therein lies the problem I have with this idea. Everlasting peace is a sham. It'll never happen until we're all dead.
...

Hence the reason the Synthetics may kill us all to achieve it.

[KaiserShep]

Hence the reason the Synthetics may kill us all to achieve it.

Ah but there is the key word. They may, or they may not. So the question is, is it possible, even remotely, that future synthetics never successfully wipe out organic life?

[Reorte]

Art is my job... 
 
 
Oh, I didn't see that one from Valmar : "It is not that art is subjective, you are just ignorant of its beauty." Impressive, really...

Must be one of those jobs that you don't need to know anything about to do then, at least beyond the technical aspects (e.g. I'm sure it's entirely possible to appraise and sell art accurately without it doing anything for you). Are you one of those people who knows the price of everything and the worth of nothing?

You're sticking with the idea that if someone doesn't like a piece of art that others do then the person who doesn't like it is plain wrong, instead of having different tastes? That it's impossible to dislike it if you know enough to understand it and see what it's trying to do?

[Reorte]

Ah but there is the key word. They may, or they may not. So the question is, is it possible, even remotely, that future synthetics never successfully wipe out organic life?

Depends upon your timescale, but we're in to the monkey with a typewriter and enough time eventually producing the complete works of Shakespeare territory here. Give the synthetics enough time and if the possibility exists at all then it'll happen. Stick to things like "in the lifetime of the universe" then it's entirely speculation.

[Obadiah]

Ah but there is the key word. They may, or they may not. So the question is, is it possible, even remotely, that future synthetics never successfully wipe out organic life?

The Catalyst is a machine, and since its prediction is built on calculations, there is a margin of error for the prediction. However, "may" on a long enough timeline is certainty. Of course, people can hold on to that uncertainty if they like, but it implies a few things:
- Not taking action for a potential prediction unless there is 100% certainty of it
- An expectation of the Catalyst to actually prove to us the players what it is saying, which in a video game is not something I would expect. For a story it just needs to be plausible, and it is.
- A willingness to bet on that remote chance of it not happening to ignore or discount it. This is the same kind of logic that applies to arguments against doing something about global warming.

[Vazgen]

And therein lies the problem I have with this idea. Everlasting peace is a sham. It'll never happen until we're all dead. When a story pushes otherwise, I have to turn off my brain to deflect the silliness.

The endings are quite consistent with your line of thought. Arguably, Destroy is the worst, since it doesn't really solve the problem and removes the Reapers. Control either, since it doesn't result in a new solution. Synthesis is (according to the Catalyst) the best solution since it removes the fundamental differences between organics and synthetics thus removing the reason for the conflict it observed for countless cycles. A conflict may still occur but it will be for different reasons and the Catalyst will be there to analyze and stop it.
The Catalyst is a machine, it bases its conclusions on statistical data from all the cycles and in all those cycles the pattern was the same. You can claim that the possibility still exists that it's wrong and that, in fact, is what separates you from the machines. EDI or Legion would never choose destroy, as self aware as they were.