989 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

Imposing any change on people without their explicit consent is a negative thing to do.

Who someone is very fundamentally involves their perspectives and how they think. I'm not sure how it's even possible to suggest otherwise.

It's a huge leap of faith to assume that new abilities and knowledge (even overlooking the ethical issues surrounding gaining them) will lead to anything like the portrayed utopia. Because that is so unlikely there's something more sinister going on.

[Reorte]

You will get a negative perspective. Others will get a positive one. You can't claim to equate your feelings to that of everyone. 
It also has to do with how invasive the procedure is. As we see in the ending it's not connected to a physical trauma.

So what? It's still incredibly invasive. Doing anything to anyone without their consent is.
 

Synthesis is not about an eternal peace. It's about stopping organic/synthetic conflict which seems to be the case. Organic/synthetic dichotomy no longer exists and thus, the conflict in question is no more.Disagreements between various groups of Synthesis-changed individuals are not a part of that conflict.

Yes, it works on a technicality that there aren't any organics around any more (more synthetics will probably get built sooner or later), so hence no organic-synthetic conflict.
 

From what we see in the ending, the Synthesis-changed individuals feel a connection between each other and the world. As a crude (and possibly wrong) analogy, imagine everyone becoming able to sense the world and others around him similarly to Neo in Matrix (without the ability to change it all). It did not take away his humanity or free will. It did change his outlook on certain subjects.

Well that sounds bloody awful for starters.

[Vazgen]

So what? It's still incredibly invasive. Doing anything to anyone without their consent is.
 
Yes, it works on a technicality that there aren't any organics around any more (more synthetics will probably get built sooner or later), so hence no organic-synthetic conflict.
 
Well that sounds bloody awful for starters.

It doesn't sound that bad for me. Especially if it also includes saving myself from being liquefied and stored in a Reaper form. I'd quite prefer to get a better understanding of the world. That's why the majority is fine with it.

[Reorte]

It doesn't sound that bad for me. Especially if it also includes saving myself from being liquefied and stored in a Reaper form. I'd quite prefer to get a better understanding of the world. That's why the majority is fine with it.

Better than being mulched into a Reaper but there are alternatives (Destroy and Control).

Do you think it's likely that the majority would be fine with it? It gets pretty controversial every time it's discussed so I can't imagine it happening in reality would be much different. The fact that it seems to be in the slides helps make it feel even more disturbing.

[DeinonSlayer]

Better than being mulched into a Reaper but there are alternatives (Destroy and Control).Do you think it's likely that the majority would be fine with it? It gets pretty controversial every time it's discussed so I can't imagine it happening in reality would be much different. The fact that it seems to be in the slides helps make it feel even more disturbing.

"River... we're not telling people what to think. We're just showing them how."
*STAB*

[Obadiah]

...
Who someone is very fundamentally involves their perspectives and how they think. I'm not sure how it's even possible to suggest otherwise.
...

Its quite simple. Our perspective and how we think is changing constantly as we learn, acquire new information, and find new ways of thinking. By the definition you gave we change who we are almost every week. It is a pointless definition to use to define who you are.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Better than being mulched into a Reaper but there are alternatives (Destroy and Control).

Do you think it's likely that the majority would be fine with it? It gets pretty controversial every time it's discussed so I can't imagine it happening in reality would be much different. The fact that it seems to be in the slides helps make it feel even more disturbing.

 

Lots of people being angry is not really a noteworthy development.

 

Especially not since any of the choices at hand (or no choice) will undoubtedly have that effect anyway.

 

People who approve of any given ending choice will justify it away with whatever rationale they used to select it. If they do not approve, though, only then does anyone else's opinion seem to matter!

[Vazgen]

 

Better than being mulched into a Reaper but there are alternatives (Destroy and Control).

Do you think it's likely that the majority would be fine with it? It gets pretty controversial every time it's discussed so I can't imagine it happening in reality would be much different. The fact that it seems to be in the slides helps make it feel even more disturbing.

You forget, only Shepard knows of the alternatives. In general, everyone is fine with using an alien device with an unknown function the only known result of it being stopping the Reaper war. I think it's quite likely that people will accept it as a necessary trade-off. And with Reapers helping with rebuilding efforts and sharing all their knowledge, that initial negativity will soon disappear.

My problem with the Synthesis is not the message but its execution. I can't think of a possible way in ME universe for it to work, except perhaps nanites that can be stored in every mass relays and spread out with the Crucible wave (but that's quite far-fetched IMO)

[MrFob]

 

 

You forget, only Shepard knows of the alternatives. In general, everyone is fine with using an alien device with an unknown function the only known result of it being stopping the Reaper war. I think it's quite likely that people will accept it as a necessary trade-off. And with Reapers helping with rebuilding efforts and sharing all their knowledge, that initial negativity will soon disappear.

 

Oh, seeing how diverse people's opinions are, I am sure there will be more than a few technophobes who will want to tare their own green glowing eyes out.

[Iakus]

You will get a negative perspective. Others will get a positive one. You can't claim to equate your feelings to that of everyone. 

It also has to do with how invasive the procedure is. As we see in the ending it's not connected to a physical trauma.

 

Synthesis is not about an eternal peace. It's about stopping organic/synthetic conflict which seems to be the case. Organic/synthetic dichotomy no longer exists and thus, the conflict in question is no more.Disagreements between various groups of Synthesis-changed individuals are not a part of that conflict. 

 

From what we see in the ending, the Synthesis-changed individuals feel a connection between each other and the world. As a crude (and possibly wrong) analogy, imagine everyone becoming able to sense the world and others around him similarly to Neo in Matrix (without the ability to change it all). It did not take away his humanity or free will. It did change his outlook on certain subjects. 

Except the Synthesis ending shows a universally positive "perspective" 

 

And it heavilly implies an "eternal peace" ie: No krogan uprising, which was purely organic in nature.

 

All of which have some really unfortunate implications

[Reorte]

Its quite simple. Our perspective and how we think is changing constantly as we learn, acquire new information, and find new ways of thinking. By the definition you gave we change who we are almost every week. It is a pointless definition to use to define who you are.

It changes over time yet it's the only meaningful definition of who you are. People very rarely change so completely that their entire outlook on just about everything changes and they become unrecognisable to those who knew them, and if they do it's generally in response to something traumatic.

[Reorte]

You forget, only Shepard knows of the alternatives. In general, everyone is fine with using an alien device with an unknown function the only known result of it being stopping the Reaper war. I think it's quite likely that people will accept it as a necessary trade-off. And with Reapers helping with rebuilding efforts and sharing all their knowledge, that initial negativity will soon disappear.

I don't, not in the slightest. Future generations who have never known anything else will accept it but that's true for any change no matter how good or bad so it's no argument.

[Iakus]

"River... we're not telling people what to think. We're just showing them how."
*STAB*

 

"I believe in something greater than myself.  A better world.  A world without sin."

[dreamgazer]

Do you think it's likely that the majority would be fine with it? It gets pretty controversial every time it's discussed so I can't imagine it happening in reality would be much different.

Countless important human topics without black and white solutions get "controversial" when they're discussed.

[Reorte]

Countless important human topics without black and white solutions get "controversial" when they're discussed.

That's why any portrayal of just about anything showing everyone seeming happy with it makes me suspicious.

[Vazgen]

Oh, seeing how diverse people's opinions are, I am sure there will be more than a few technophobes who will want to tare their own green glowing eyes out.

Definitely. They might even form a quite large group with substantial funding. They will not be in a majority though and their position will not coincide with that of governments who would much rather prefer reaping the benefits from shared Reaper technology. That doesn't mean that they won't prevail in the end or they will be forced into exile or something like that. It's dependent on a lot of factors, we can't tell anything about it now.

 

I don't, not in the slightest. Future generations who have never known anything else will accept it but that's true for any change no matter how good or bad so it's no argument.

I'm not talking about future generations. I'm talking about the current one. I'd say that future generations, in fact, may oppose it much harder. Slides show current generation (seeing known characters there). 

 

Except the Synthesis ending shows a universally positive "perspective" 

 

And it heavilly implies an "eternal peace" ie: No krogan uprising, which was purely organic in nature.

 

All of which have some really unfortunate implications

What it implies is your perception of the ending. You see "eternal peace", I see just "peace". I posted a few times already that Synthesis changes individual's perception of the world, others and themselves (not taking away free will, not dumping information in individual's mind) by changing their genetic structure and creating a connection between them, world and other beings in it. Wreav could've changed his views on war or simply become wise enough to realize that waging war without rebuilding first is a suicide.

[MrFob]

Countless important human topics without black and white solutions get "controversial" when they're discussed.

Yes, and people will discuss it, fight about it, try to change their circumstance. People who think alike will come together in grroups for mutual support and divide from those who don't share their view. In the case of big issues, wars may break out between those groups. Some may loose these fights and be eradicated, some will win but at least people do have the opportunity to change their circumstances. Lot's of them don't and lot's of them have very limited options but they can try.
Synthesis doesn't work like that. The change is inside every individual. It's on the inside and if you don't like it, you are screwed, you can't crawl out of your own skin (or DNA-Nanite hybrid thing in this case).
For someone who is opposed to the idea of being synthesized, I cannot image a worse torment. This person will spend the rest of their life hate what they have become and there is nothing they can do about it.
 

Definitely. They might even form a quite large group with substantial funding. They will not be in a majority though and their position will not coincide with that of governments who would much rather prefer reaping the benefits from shared Reaper technology. That doesn't mean that they won't prevail in the end or they will be forced into exile or something like that. It's dependent on a lot of factors, we can't tell anything about it now.

And this is why I am so disgusted by the notion of synthesis. It disrespects individuality, the right of each person to try and become what they want to be on their own terms.

[Iakus]

 

What it implies is your perception of the ending. You see "eternal peace", I see just "peace". I posted a few times already that Synthesis changes individual's perception of the world, others and themselves (not taking away free will, not dumping information in individual's mind) by changing their genetic structure and creating a connection between them, world and other beings in it. Wreav could've changed his views on war or simply become wise enough to realize that waging war without rebuilding first is a suicide.

 

And you see no problem with physically altering someone's mind in such a way?  I find it a violation of the worst kind.  As it "how the FRAK did this get past peer review!?  "

 

Seriously, I find it no different than forcing them to drink qamek.

[Vazgen]

And you see no problem with physically altering someone's mind in such a way?  I find it a violation of the worst kind.  As it "how the FRAK did this get past peer review!?  "

 

Seriously, I find it no different than forcing them to drink qamek.

I don't like it and don't choose Synthesis. I'm not repulsed by the idea of it though and don't hate it. I've said already, that the execution is what bothers me. 

[Iakus]

I don't like it and don't choose Synthesis. I'm not repulsed by the idea of it though and don't hate it. I've said already, that the execution is what bothers me. 

Well I am repulsed by it, and for the very reasons I laid out.

 

Not that Find the other options much better

[dreamgazer]

Is this a peaceful meeting or an organization of resistance?

[MrFob]

Is this a peaceful meeting or an organization of resistance?

Resistance against what? Their own DNA? All any resistance can do is commit mass suicide at that point.

[Vazgen]

 

Well I am repulsed by it, and for the very reasons I laid out.

 

Not that Find the other options much better

Are you repulsed by the idea of having better connection to the world, other beings in it, synthetics and organics alike as well as getting all the knowledge of the previous cycles?

That's the idea of Synthesis. However, to realize this idea, it is required to rewrite genetic code of every being in the galaxy. That's the execution and that's what you are repulsed by, based on your previous posts.

[dreamgazer]

Resistance against what? Their own DNA? All any resistance can do is commit mass suicide at that point.

How fatalistic. Yeah, in a way.

All that knowledge coursing through them, and you think they won't draw up ideas of reversing/limiting the process and quietly build up a resistance against the Reapers?

[MrFob]

How fatalistic. Yeah, in a way.

It's not my fault, the endings are fatalistic.

All that knowledge coursing through them, and you think they won't draw up ideas of reversing/limiting the process and quietly build up a resistance against the Reapers?

Well, if it were easily reversible and if I were hoping for that, there is not much point in choosing synthesis in the first place, is there? It would make the entire argument of the catalyst quite laughable, really. It's also not really consistent with what the epilogues show (which just sweeps the entire problem under the rug anyway though)

It's similar to the people who choose control, just to fly the reapers into the sun.