989 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

 

 

Are you repulsed by the idea of having better connection to the world, other beings in it, synthetics and organics alike as well as getting all the knowledge of the previous cycles?

That's the idea of Synthesis. However, to realize this idea, it is required to rewrite genetic code of every being in the galaxy. That's the execution and that's what you are repulsed by, based on your previous posts.

 

I am repulsed at the idea that every living thing being forced to essentially undergo gene therapy against their will.  I'm opposed to forcing people to change who and what they are to fit some other being's concept of "perfection".  Such actions smack of eugenics and worse.

 

If you want to sugarcoat it with terms like "better connection" and "knowledge of previous cycles" then go ahead.  but that is simply too high a price.

[dreamgazer]

It's not my fault, the endings are fatalistic.

Only if you let them be. We'll always be limited in our immediate parameters, though, and we'll always have to learn from our past mistakes and own up to them.
 

Well, if it were easily reversible and if I were hoping for that, there is not much point in choosing synthesis in the first place, is there? It would make the entire argument of the catalyst quite laughable, really. It's also not really consistent with what the epilogues show (which just sweeps the entire problem under the rug anyway though)

Nobody said it would be easy, or that it would come to fruition in the very near future, or that everyone would reject the change.

People will resist and adapt far sooner than they would perform mass seppuku, though.
 

It's similar to the people who choose control, just to fly the reapers into the sun.

Yeah, BioWare pretty much wiped out that possibility, but it makes sense that they did.

[Vazgen]

I am repulsed at the idea that every living thing being forced to essentially undergo gene therapy against their will.  I'm opposed to forcing people to change who and what they are to fit some other being's concept of "perfection".  Such actions smack of eugenics and worse.

 

If you want to sugarcoat it with terms like "better connection" and "knowledge of previous cycles" then go ahead.  but that is simply too high a price.

OK, good, execution then. 

[Reorte]

Are you repulsed by the idea of having better connection to the world, other beings in it, synthetics and organics alike as well as getting all the knowledge of the previous cycles?

Yes. I'm entirely happy with the connection I've got with the world as it is (and don't like it when things about the world that I do like get shoved out of the way to make life a bit quicker and easier). I really do not want more connection with other people. I value individuality and privacy far too much for that and find any hint of compulsion to reduce them repugnant. The knowledge would be nice but the price isn't worth it.

If other people want that though that's fine, if the means existed for them to chose it for themselves and it was entirely their own decision, take it or leave it, that would be great. After all people should be free to chose what to do with themselves.

[dreamgazer]

After all people should be free to chose what to do with themselves.

As warped as it might sound, there's the strong possibility that the knowledge and technological prowess gained from Synthesis might actually make that freedom of choice more possible than the limits of standard organic existence. I'm not a Synthesis supporter for a few different reasons, but it's hard to deny the appeal in that aspect of it.

[Reorte]

I wouldn't say that absolutely everything about it is negative, it's mostly a case of the end most definitely not justifying the means. Making it an option of personal choice would open up loads without much of a downside.

[MrFob]

I wouldn't say that absolutely everything about it is negative, it's mostly a case of the end most definitely not justifying the means. Making it an option of personal choice would open up loads without much of a downside.

Well, the "downside" would be that it's not a solution for the catalyst anymore, if the change is not complete.
That would be interesting though. What would happen to those who don't choose to be synthesized? Would they still need to be harvested by the reapers? Who would the synthesized organics side with then?

You can't just extract the choice from it's context (that it is there to replace the reaper cycles) or the one who gives this choice to you. In the end, synthesis can only work if the change is absolute and irreversible.

[dreamgazer]

You can't just extract the choice from it's context (that it is there to replace the reaper cycles) or the one who gives this choice to you.

It's there to heighten the understanding between organics and synthetics, not just to replace the cycles, and there are no guarantees that "the ideal solution" will remain that way forever. After all, technology, ambition, even biology will always advance (even in its final stage of "evolution" as we comprehend it). Before Shepard touched the beacon(s), s/he had no perspective on the Protheans. After, coupled with the cipher, s/he then had that endemic memory and perspective. The same could eventually work for the post-Synthesis perspective on the creator-created conflict and the processes of synthetics, without the need for techno-enhanced DNA. But civilization would need a universal frame of reference, a point where that understanding actually worked outside of a flimsy, tentative truce.

There's a lot of room for things to feasibly happen in the Synthesis universe, including conflict and choice.
 

In the end, synthesis can only work if the change is absolute and irreversible.

Absolute? Yeah, at first. Irreversible? Not so sure about that.

[Iakus]

 
Absolute? Yeah, at first. Irreversible? Not so sure about that.

If it's reversible, "the chaos will come back"

[dreamgazer]

No, the chaos will (hypothetically) come back if no action is taken to improve the understanding.

[Iakus]

No, the chaos will (hypothetically) come back if no action is taken to improve the understanding.

Tell that to Bioware the Catalyst

[dreamgazer]

Tell that to Bioware the Catalyst

You want me to repeat back what the Catalyst itself says?

"Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding."

That's the clash in perspectives that needs to be resolved, which can't be done without taking action. Nowhere does it state that the solution can't evolve with time, though. Synthetics will still have full understanding of organics even with some divergent organics, and organics will continue to have access to "perfection".

[Fandango]

You want me to repeat back what the Catalyst itself says?

"Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding."

That's the clash in perspectives that needs to be resolved, which can't be done without taking action.

And what action do you advocate dreamgazer?

[dreamgazer]

Pulling the trigger.

[Fandango]

Pulling the trigger.

So violence?

[themikefest]

My femshep is perfect so she doesn't need that perfection through technology crap. She shoots the tube, goes home and has a beer. Can't get anymore perfect than that.

[Obadiah]

@MrFob
@Reorte

There is the opportunity cost of not picking Synthesis. You are denying everyone left the chance to live in this, somewhat creepy, Utopia in favor of having society achieve some measure of it themselves on their own terms; and that is only if they survive the wars with Synthetics. Recovering from the Reaper Invasion and achieving the advances on their own will incur the usual amount of suffering and bloodshed from conflict, disease, etc. Its all well and good for you if that is the way you think things should be, but for the people would could have had a better life, would have wanted a better life, that is now generations away.

[Iakus]

You want me to repeat back what the Catalyst itself says?

"Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding."

That's the clash in perspectives that needs to be resolved, which can't be done without taking action. Nowhere does it state that the solution can't evolve with time, though. Synthetics will still have full understanding of organics even with some divergent organics, and organics will continue to have access to "perfection".

I don't believe that action needs to be taken.

 

As for the solution evolving with time: "Synthesis is the final evolution of life"  A statement which is itself utter nonsense, but also suggests that once this so-called "perfection" has been achieved, no no further need to grow and develop

[Commander Rpg]

The Catalyst created synthetics to wipe out all 'advanced' organic life so they could not create synthetics which would then destroy all organic life.
 

You and I both know that 'trees' isn't what is meant. I think you are trying hard to dismiss the meme because you know it has a grain of truth at its core.

 

This is called "major plot-hole". Done by an ending. Whoa.

[dreamgazer]

I don't believe that action needs to be taken.

That's too bad. Without taking the action after "altering the variables", the Catalyst will continue to preserve life as it knows how to. There certainly isn't any substantial counter-evidence.
 

As for the solution evolving with time: "Synthesis is the final evolution of life"  A statement which is itself utter nonsense, but also suggests that once this so-called "perfection" has been achieved, no no further need to grow and develop

Final evolution of life as it's known, perhaps.

Growth and development will always occur. Growth and development occur in the Synthesis ending itself.
 

So violence?

Finality, in a word.

[Obadiah]

Final Evolution - When we are fully able to use the tech we are integrated with, then there will be no random mutation, only genetic changes by design. Hence there is no natural selection, the end of evolution, or the "final evolution."

[Reorte]

@MrFob
@Reorte

There is the opportunity cost of not picking Synthesis. You are denying everyone left the chance to live in this, somewhat creepy, Utopia in favor of having society achieve some measure of it themselves on their own terms, if they survive the wars with Synthetics. Recovering from the Reaper Invasion and achieving the advances on their own will incur the usual amount of suffering and bloodshed from conflict, disease, etc. Its all well and good for you if that is the way you think things should be, but for the people would could have had a better life, would have wanted a better life, that is now generations away.

A position that assumes no downsides and ignores the impact of it on people who don't want it.

[Obadiah]

I ignored nothing. I have barely argued with any of your assertions. I am simply bringing you the other side of the argument.

[Iakus]

Final Evolution - When we are fully able to use the tech we are integrated with, then there will be no random mutation, only genetic changes by design. Hence the end of evolution, or the "final evolution."

Except in such case evolution would  arguably continue.  Self-directed, yes, but still evolution.

 

The Catalyst explicitly says Synthesis is the final evolution.

 

Which sounds an awful lot like how Sovereign described the Reapers: We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing.

[StarcloudSWG]

What are the Reapers, according to what Bioware has written?

 

They're not synthetics. They're not organics. They're a *ahem* synthesis *ahem* of organic and synthetic.

 

What do you do in Synthesis? You turn *everyone* into a synthesis of organic and synthetic, and do so under the direction of the Reaper AI gestalt.

 

The result?

 

EVERYONE in the galaxy becomes a Reaper creature.

 

Eventually, organics will evolve who are not part of the Reaper gestalt. Then, they will be coaxed, coerced, and finally forced to join the Reaper gestalt, 'for their own good.'

 

The harvest will begin again. Their lives will be over. They will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.